What is the purpose of Grace?

[amigo de christo]

Grace is established by God. Faith appropriates grace. God releases grace to faith. We overcome the flesh through grace.....released to us by faith.

Mercy and truth are the balance of God's judgment. For the righteous and the meek, mercy triumphs over judgment. The truth pertains to satisfying God's righteousness...leading to a higher attainment...holiness.

Justice is righteousness. With the merciful God will show mercy. If we forgive others we will be forgiven. We reap as we sow.

we surely do reap as we sow .
And he who calls GOD a liar is gonna reap damnation on JESUS Day .
SO here is who calls GOD a liar , EVERY RELGOIN DOES . cept those whose faith BE IN HIS CHRIST .
Inclusivians lied to you , heck i read that book , they lied to me too . ONLY I DIDNT BUY IT and you DID .
That currency you keep talking about , YEAH its not gonna save anyone .
IN fact NO WHITE GARMENT , THEY ONLY CAST OUT .
AND The only ones wearing a white garment ARE THOSE WHOSE FAITH IS IN JESUS CHRIST and not rather
the inclusive lie that darn sure has made the path TO GOD very broad as it sure does accept sins
as well as ....................UNBELIEF .
HEY EPI , WHEN GOD SPOKE abraham BELIEVED and it was counted unto him FOR RIGHTOUESNESS .
WIthout FAITH NO MAN can please GOD . AND if one calls GOD a liar , IF ONE BELEIVES HIM NOT
OH THEY GOT NO FAITH IN GOD .
HE who recieves HIS TESTMONY has set to his SEAL that GOD IS TRUE .
BUT HE who recieves NOT the testimony that GOD gave of the SON , HE CALLS GOD A LIAR .
SOMETHING these inclusivians DENY . Like i said I KNOW what they teach and you
exposed yourself today for all t osee . I KNEW you believed that lie all along
cause as i told you I DID learn about inclusivity long ago . EVEN THEN i knew it was of anti christ .

 

[Hepzibah]

Needed 5 minutes to question the objectivity of the author and looked him up.

This is a quote of the author of the video -

Dr. David Litwa - It took me three years of college to realize that one needed to, frankly, become an atheist. I needed to recognize that much of what I grew up with was a sham: an instance of inauthentic thinking, and very complex measures for self-deception.

As such I don't trust the video.

Fair enough, but a quick search will show that Irenaeus has been indeed, the subject of much debate amongst scholars, and even more so Origen. Their writings have never been accepted as authoritive amongst the Orthodox, and if you are happy that Marta Przyszychowska, the author of the work, uses these two controversial figures for his/her main argument, I am not. I will go (video excepted) to reliable sources. (Sorry about missing that one.)

The author does admit that original sin was not used before Augustine, but misses what was actually said by Nazianzus by failing to read it carefully or being as dishonest as many scholars:

"For we believe that since we had fallen due to sin from the beginning and been led away by pleasure as far as idolatry and lawless bloodshed, we needed to be called back again and restored to our *original state*, through the heartfelt compassion of God our Father, who could not bear that such a work of his own hands as the human being should be lost. 366 Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 45, 12; PG 36, 637-640; transl. N. Verna Harrison, 171."

How can this be if we are born into a state of sinfulness? It rather says that something happened to us - we fell away from the original state (innocence) being tempted, and a work of God was required to call us Back and Restore us. The sin from the beginning, is of course Adam's sin with which we share once we give in to temptation which is inevitable due to the power of Satan.

And what is our *original state*? It is clearly not sinful and is what is in the minds of the early fathers when they talk about healing and not justice.

 

[Hepzibah]

Pointing out that Irenaeus should be tested against the surviving evidence is not the same thing as claiming that his testimony about his opponents “cannot be trusted.” That conclusion goes much further than the evidence presented here. And even if Irenaeus got some historical details wrong, that does not make Gnostic teaching true. The Scripture is enough to judge it by. “For ALL things were made by him; and without him was not ANYTHING MADE that was made.” (John 1: 3) “That Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,” (1 Corinthians 15:3). Questioning Irenaeus does not help teach doctrines that go against the Bible.

Please read my reply to @ProDeo which explains what I mean. As you have seemingly not read the article you are really not in position to comment.

 

[Marvelloustime]

we surely do reap as we sow .
And he who calls GOD a liar is gonna reap damnation on JESUS Day .
SO here is who calls GOD a liar , EVERY RELGOIN DOES . cept those whose faith BE IN HIS CHRIST .
Inclusivians lied to you , heck i read that book , they lied to me too . ONLY I DIDNT BUY IT and you DID .
That currency you keep talking about , YEAH its not gonna save anyone .
IN fact NO WHITE GARMENT , THEY ONLY CAST OUT .
AND The only ones wearing a white garment ARE THOSE WHOSE FAITH IS IN JESUS CHRIST and not rather
the inclusive lie that darn sure has made the path TO GOD very broad as it sure does accept sins
as well as ....................UNBELIEF .
HEY EPI , WHEN GOD SPOKE abraham BELIEVED and it was counted unto him FOR RIGHTOUESNESS .
WIthout FAITH NO MAN can please GOD . AND if one calls GOD a liar , IF ONE BELEIVES HIM NOT
OH THEY GOT NO FAITH IN GOD .
HE who recieves HIS TESTMONY has set to his SEAL that GOD IS TRUE .
BUT HE who recieves NOT the testimony that GOD gave of the SON , HE CALLS GOD A LIAR .
SOMETHING these inclusivians DENY . Like i said I KNOW what they teach and you
exposed yourself today for all t osee . I KNEW you believed that lie all along
cause as i told you I DID learn about inclusivity long ago . EVEN THEN i knew it was of anti christ .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

the god of the incluisivains and its progressive mindset will lead them all to perdition .
Its growing daily and by the hour now .
stay IN the scriptures . The god of the inclusivains cannot save them . FOR IT BE NOT THE GOD
OF our LORD and sav oir JESUS CHRIST . IT be the god of lies and mirrors . always twisting
and always misleading it does . The carnal progressive mind of man can RECIEVE IT .
ONLY the sheep who now have the mind of CHRIST can and will resist it . The hour is late my friend .
The hour is very late indeed .

@amigo de christo

 

[ProDeo]

Fair enough, but a quick search will show that Irenaeus has been indeed, the subject of much debate amongst scholars, and even more so Origen. Their writings have never been accepted as authoritive amongst the Orthodox, and if you are happy that Marta Przyszychowska, the author of the work, uses these two controversial figures for his/her main argument, I am not. I will go (video excepted) to reliable sources. (Sorry about missing that one.)

The author does admit that original sin was not used before Augustine, but misses what was actually said by Nazianzus by failing to read it carefully or being as dishonest as many scholars:

"For we believe that since we had fallen due to sin from the beginning and been led away by pleasure as far as idolatry and lawless bloodshed, we needed to be called back again and restored to our *original state*, through the heartfelt compassion of God our Father, who could not bear that such a work of his own hands as the human being should be lost. 366 Gregory of Nazianzus, Oratio 45, 12; PG 36, 637-640; transl. N. Verna Harrison, 171."

How can this be if we are born into a state of sinfulness? It rather says that something happened to us - we fell away from the original state (innocence) being tempted, and a work of God was required to call us Back and Restore us. The sin from the beginning, is of course Adam's sin with which we share once we give in to temptation which is inevitable due to the power of Satan.

And what is our *original state*? It is clearly not sinful and is what is in the minds of the early fathers when they talk about healing and not justice.

I am not as good as you regarding the ECT's, I only studied Origen and in particular his theory of pre-existence. Marta (the author) rejects Origen out of hand while she should at least have mentioned the theory because it answers the question of original sin, her chosen topic.

In a nutshell, Origen reasoning about the fall, God walking in the cool of the day in Paradise is symbolism, the Bible later explains God is Spirit. The talking snake is symbolism, we later understand it was the devil. A&E as we later learn represent all humans ever lived, live now and in the future, symbolism also. This without denying A&E were real historical persons. His conclusion - We were all in Adam, pre-existence souls, in Paradise and we participated in the rebellion, demanding to know about evil and God gave us disobedient souls what we wanted, away from Paradise, landing on the violent Earth where death rules as a necessity and we experience good and evil and learn the difference. We had our chance, but.... we rebelled, guilty as charged, born sinners by default, fallen creatures in need for restoration in Christ.

Problem, the Scriptures he used are not convincing, so I don't believe it as truth, but the thought is fascinating.

 

[Hepzibah]

I am not as good as you regarding the ECT's, I only studied Origen and in particular his theory of pre-existence. Marta (the author) rejects Origen out of hand while she should at least have mentioned the theory because it answers the question of original sin, her chosen topic.

In a nutshell, Origen reasoning about the fall, God walking in the cool of the day in Paradise is symbolism, the Bible later explains God is Spirit. The talking snake is symbolism, we later understand it was the devil. A&E as we later learn represent all humans ever lived, live now and in the future, symbolism also. This without denying A&E were real historical persons. His conclusion - We were all in Adam, pre-existence souls, in Paradise and we participated in the rebellion, demanding to know about evil and God gave us disobedient souls what we wanted, away from Paradise, landing on the violent Earth where death rules as a necessity and we experience good and evil and learn the difference. We had our chance, but.... we rebelled, guilty as charged, born sinners by default, fallen creatures in need for restoration in Christ.

Problem, the Scriptures he used are not convincing, so I don't believe it as truth, but the thought is fascinating.

The problem is, that it is perfectly possible to say that man 'joined' with Adam's sin nature, when he inevitably sins himself, yet he was not born in that way which the quote I gave, seems clear to me. Plus the scriptures given to support OS are very weak. I add that to the majority of the ECF's, if correctly interpretated, did not accept man is born sinful but that there was a propensityweakness to sin which was realized.

Man is born in the same state as Adam, innocent and makes the choice, led by Satan, and falls, and is restored by making the choice through faith to the state of Adam and then to go on to perfection or theosis in ECF terms. That in totality is the gospel.

 

[Episkopos]

epi what you THINK is proper currency AINT THE WAY INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD
SO telling lizabeth she aint got it your version of this currency IS A COMPLIMENT TO HER and myself .
YOU inclusivians preach a false gospel . And you proved what i already knew about you and this inclusivity
WHEN you came after my post exposing the religoin of anti christ for peace .
SO i will stick to THE BLOOD OF CHRIST , FAITH IN HIM as MY CURRENCY INTO THE KINGDOM .
cause your inclusivity AINT GETTING YOU OR ANYONE INTO THIS KINGDOM OF GOD . You better repent epi .

What you teach is from a spirit that says...DON'T listen to Jesus...don't listen to His words!!!!

You think God accepts lip-service.....but He doesn't. If you love Jesus then obey Him.

But only His sheep hear His voice, If you were His sheep you would not deny His words. You call God a liar because you have adopted the traditions of men...the antichrist is at work in those who say they believe in Jesus....but they are lawless and will be rejected.

Obey God. Obey the Lord Jesus. Hearing is not enough....one must DO His words to be saved.

You have no idea what the kingdom of God is or His righteousness. All you have is a man-made religion with LOTS of condemning of others. Having no mercy....means no mercy for you. You reap as you sow.

True faith in Christ is to walk as He walked...without sin and without all the fleshly self-interest and self-promotion you display here.

 

[Lizbeth]

It's like we having to go to a spiritual storehouse where things are laid up. The bible calls this the throne of grace. But those things are not necessarily for us personally. If I go to a store I never think that all the items I see on the shelves are mine...that are there for me. They are potentially there for me....but not necessarily. I have to BUY them with the proper currency. I can't use play money. Likewise you can't think your play/pretend money can buy you anything from heaven.

Why haven't you ever been translated into the kingdom realm? You don't have the proper currency.

Jesus has paid the price for everything, and in Him and through Him it is all being imputed to the believing child of God meanwhile.........as we also pay a price to follow Him and seek to apprehend those things.

Why aren't you in the kingdom realm? Do you ever examine yourself? And since you aren't, you don't have the right to rebuke others for not being there yet. If anything, I would think your situation would make you more understanding of others (assuming your experience was genuine).

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus has paid the price for everything, and in Him and through Him it is all being imputed to the believing child of God meanwhile.........as we also pay a price to follow Him and seek to apprehend those things.

Why aren't you in the kingdom realm? Do you ever examine yourself? And since you aren't, you don't have the right to rebuke others for not being there yet. If anything, I would think your situation would make you more understanding of others (assuming your experience was genuine).

When one examines himself by a false gospel thus by a god of the broad path of unbelief ........
It be as a blind mind groping in the dark and looking right into a mirror .
He simply cannot see . he might feel the mirror but he cannot see .
Those who stumble in the darkness cannot see that which they stumbled upon .
And any who preaches the inclusivian gospel is blind indeed . For though they bring even Jesus words
they will use such words in incluisivain light . And that light be darkness sister .
What a man sees is only that which is pleasing to His flesh .
And he will walk miles upon miles and over hills and moutains to find
what was promised water , but only finds an empty cistern .

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus has paid the price for everything, and in Him and through Him it is all being imputed to the believing child of God meanwhile.........as we also pay a price to follow Him and seek to apprehend those things.

Why aren't you in the kingdom realm? Do you ever examine yourself? And since you aren't, you don't have the right to rebuke others for not being there yet. If anything, I would think your situation would make you more understanding of others (assuming your experience was genuine).

When a man uses scripture , even the words of JESUS in the gospels ,
but only uses such words to negate HIS other words , namely the dire need to BELIEVE on HIM
Then the light that is in them be only darkness .
And if the light that is in one be darkness , THEN GREAT is that darkness sister .

 

[Lizbeth]

Back to topic "What is the purpose of Grace?"

I believe that grace is the enabling power for us to become sons of God. If we receive him by faith and believe on His name.

No need to complicate it

Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Power comes to us through His grace, but grace is not just power........it is God's overall disposition of favour to the believer based on our faith in and acceptance of His Son. We have found favour with God, through faith. So He is disposed to be gracious to us, which comes from the root word grace. Through that grace come all the "benefits" of the gospel....salvation, Holy Spirit, blessing, provision, protection, guidance, power, spiritual gifts, etc.

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus has paid the price for everything, and in Him and through Him it is all being imputed to the believing child of God meanwhile.........as we also pay a price to follow Him and seek to apprehend those things.

Why aren't you in the kingdom realm? Do you ever examine yourself? And since you aren't, you don't have the right to rebuke others for not being there yet. If anything, I would think your situation would make you more understanding of others (assuming your experience was genuine).

For here is the author of a jesus that uses THE words OF JESUS to negate IF ye believe not on me ye shall die in your sins .
The author of that
first said , HAS GOD really said and then flips it to mean NAY NAY surely ye shall not ........
And believe me this same one can indeed cliam to speak for God , for Christ
but will only use His own words against his gospel .
What we are seeing is the inclusive god has lied to them all .
But why . Why would he sound so loving and make his idea seem as such a lovely idea meant only for the good
of humanity .
WHY its the same reason HE did that in the garden . For though he spoke fair words
and told eve , THIS is a tree that shall make thee wise and surely ye shall not die ,
BUT DEATH SURELY DID come upon them .
HE DESIRES ONLY THEIR DEATH but has always had the ability to speak that which sounds so smooth
and though it is for the good of man . But , and this is a big big but , HE is a liar and the father of lies .
HE will always cause UNBELEIF .

 

[Lizbeth]

Hmmmm, this is interesting. The wound in his side being the cleft in the rock...or maybe the secret place of the most high?

Jesus is the Rock. His flesh was broken/cleft for us.........that we might find refuge IN Him through faith and be hid from the wrath of God. It is also because He was cleft that water gushes from the Rock to give refreshment to His people....His Spirit poured out.

 

[amigo de christo]

Power comes to us through His grace, but grace is not just power........it is God's overall disposition of favour to the believer based on our faith in and acceptance of His Son. We have found favour with God, through faith. So He is disposed to be gracious to us, which comes from the root word grace. Through that grace come all the "benefits" of the gospel....salvation, Holy Spirit, blessing, provision, protection, guidance, power, spiritual gifts, etc.

Did you catch something .
How often men have spoke of power and even use examples of grace giving us power .
AND YET by incluisive methods DENY THE POWER OF GOD .
How so .
The gospel of CHRIST JESUS , IS THE POWER OF GOD unto SALVATION to all who do BELIEVE .
so they an incluisivian can talk all day about the power of God
but all the day long they DENY THE POWER of GOD .
This sheep heeds not a voice one of the incluisivian nor its god . For though its god
spoke of a c ause that promised only good
That cause Was but a lie meant to sound loving , meant to sound caring ,
meant to sound as dire necessary for humanity .
AND YET ALL ALONG DENIED the DIRE NECESSITY for to BELIEVE ON HE WHO WAS DIRE NECESSARY
for huamnity TO BELIEVE In .............
Long ago i sat in a library , and long ago i read a book on inclusivity
and when i did by grace I KNEW IT WAS OF ANTI CHRIST and only meant
TO bring all tribes , all religoins , to the table
as one man with one heart and all believing it to be GOD and his plan for peace .
Only even then i knew it was only this peace it
leads them all too , HE WHO BY PEACE shall DESTROY many .

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus has paid the price for everything, and in Him and through Him it is all being imputed to the believing child of God meanwhile.

Nothing is imputed to us that isn't perfectly true of us and what we do...what is based on God's OBSERVATION of our behaviour. God judges righteously. In your scheme God judges unrighteously as a new convention that makes Him be different than He always has been. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forevermore.

........as we also pay a price to follow Him and seek to apprehend those things.

Yes. There is a price to pay to know Him and obey Him. And it costs us ALL to enter into Him.

Why aren't you in the kingdom realm?

I'm learning righteousness and honing my teaching skills in that regard. When it's time I pray the Lord will allow me back into Zion to walk in His victory. When and if that happens I don't know. But I don't want to fail the grace of God ever again.

Do you ever examine yourself?

The irony...

And since you aren't, you don't have the right to rebuke others for not being there yet.

I rebuke people because they teach lies and turn others away from the truth. Again, you can't hear what I'm saying because of your lack...not mine. I have taught the DOUBLE edged aspect of the gospel and the truth. All you hear is from a place of ignorance and failure to enter in. And that's because you name and claim something that isn't true.

Mercy is on the merciful. Mercy is on the meek and those who work righteousness. Mercy is also on the believer who does all the former.

If anything, I would think your situation would make you more understanding of others (assuming your experience was genuine).

The irony is very thick here.

I have learned mercy from God. I don't judge those who are outside the church..because there are some who God will have mercy on among them. I also learn from non-believers who have an innate righteousness. I can be taught by children in that regard.

But the puffed up pretenders only require rebuke in order to save their souls. So my message is not like the pretenders here who could be replaced by a slogan or a billboard....no nuance no understanding, just religious propaganda. No my message is adapted to the person. If you say well will I not encourage you? If you speak something that condemns you, will I not warn you in an effort to save you?

 

[Lizbeth]

What you teach is from a spirit that says...DON'T listen to Jesus...don't listen to His words!!!!

You think God accepts lip-service.....but He doesn't. If you love Jesus then obey Him.

But only His sheep hear His voice, If you were His sheep you would not deny His words. You call God a liar because you have adopted the traditions of men...the antichrist is at work in those who say they believe in Jesus....but they are lawless and will be rejected.

Obey God. Obey the Lord Jesus. Hearing is not enough....one must DO His words to be saved.

You have no idea what the kingdom of God is or His righteousness. All you have is a man-made religion with LOTS of condemning of others. Having no mercy....means no mercy for you. You reap as you sow.

True faith in Christ is to walk as He walked...without sin and without all the fleshly self-interest and self-promotion you display here.

What makes you assume this brother is not "doing"? It's quite bizarre how you are always making judgments about people whose lives you know absolutely nothing about, just because they take issue with you.

 

[Lizbeth]

Nothing is imputed to us that isn't perfectly true of us and what we do...what is based on God's OBSERVATION of our behaviour. God judges righteously. In your scheme God judges unrighteously as a new convention that makes Him be different than He always has been. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forevermore.

You dont understand grace. "Blessed is the man to whom God will not impute sin." Even though the man has sinned. Is God blind and not able to observe that the man sinned? Even so He is not imputing it to him...........in other words He is forgiving the man's sins and imputing righteousness to him instead.

The rest of your post is you justifying yourself. Good luck with that. And what is thick around here is your own pride and presumption. All the best with that too.

 

[Episkopos]

What makes you assume this brother is not "doing"? It's quite bizarre how you are always making judgments about people whose lives you know absolutely nothing about, just because they take issue with you.

That's your very carnal opinion. You judge by appearances and how you feel. I judge by the Spirit and the evidence of what animates a person.

I know the pretenders are not DOING what Jesus says because they will call me a liar for citing Him. What religious theorists do is fully ignore His laws and then claim Him as their idol. So even their belief system is based on idolatry, treating Jesus as if He was just any god. Same narrow-minded ideology...no faith and no life. Just human beliefs and hubris. Like any extremist in ANY religion.

What religionists have never considered is that seeking first the kingdom AND His righteousness is based both on what God provides and what we are to learn...namely learning righteousness

No one here will understand the depth of my training or what I teach. I have indeed walked in the kingdom realm and know that walk intimately. But what I lacked was the SIMPLICITY, the meekness of Christ. HIS righteousness...which encompasses both a divine AND a human righteousness. Jesus is BOTH God and man...and He operates on BOTH levels SIMULTANEOUSLY. Jesus emptied Himself of everything to come to us. To learn righteousness is to empty ourselves of everything WE THINK is right..and LEARN how God sees every little thing.

So I am superbly qualified to judge the brethren...because I understand the word through multiple conversions into multiple levels of understanding. But how are you going to know that if you never enter into Christ to see if what I'm saying is true? Your responses to me prove you know nothing of spiritual things. You only have bible opinions which you are trying to perfect here and there. But the bible says...always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

You need FAITH to hear what the ear can't hear. You need faith to see beyond what you can see. But you have never ventured beyond your own "ketz"...your own limitation.

What I suggest to you is that you stop naming and claiming and try entering into the truth without the guile you think you need to progress. You are doing it all wrong. And I'm trying to help you...that's why you are here in my threads...but you are very stubborn and willful in your resolute rebellion against sound doctrine...of course without knowing what you are doing.

 

[Episkopos]

You dont understand grace.

The irony...

"Blessed is the man to whom God will not impute sin." Even though the man has sinned.

You are not understanding the 3 kinds of sin so you are drawing the wrong conclusion, as per usual.
That verse is speaking of the sin of iniquity (avon). That's the kind of sin that every believer must learn to shed...as in DEPART from iniquity. Those who humble themselves and become as a child in simplicity and honesty...will not have iniquity imputed to them...because it is no longer there.

Is God blind and not able to observe that the man sinned?

You have jumbled up the bible to mean the opposite.

Even so He is not imputing it to him...........in other words He is forgiving the man's sins and imputing righteousness to him instead.

False as can be. God judges righteously as HE sees. Your scheme has God be blinded instead of you.

The rest of your post is you justifying yourself. Good luck with that. And what is thick around here is your own pride and presumption. All the best with that too.

No matter what I say...you will embrace iniquity.