Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[David in NJ]

If you say so.

Connect the dots....it's not that hard to do.

Eve connected the dots = it's not hard to do!

After Eve connected the dots, her son Cain collected rocks!

All pre-fibbers are heading for the school of hard knocks!

 

[ScottA]

A TRIBULATION saint has the ability to become UNsaved by what they do or don't whereas today, now, currently that is not possible for a Paul age saint according to the teachings of Christ through Paul.
Here is the problem :-
If a Paul age saint cannot become UNsaved yet a TRIBUALTION saint can, how can they both exist in the same 'age' ?

They don't. But they do enter eternity [in rapture] together. Because, even though everyone leaves this world "but each one in his own order", eternity is eternity.

 

[PinSeeker]

That is not what I was saying.

<chuckles>

Return 1 is the pre-trib rapture then return two is the physical return in Rev 19.

Ah, so your "return 1" is not physical... despite what we read in, for instance, Acts 1, particularly, "This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven..." (Acts 1:11). My goodness... "two returns"... <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[CrowCross]

You are changing the discussion from what we were discussing to something else. It's an avoidance known as a red herring fallacy. If you want to continue discussing what 1Co 15:52 says and does not say, let me know.

No they're not....and you need to understand that. Often a topic is exhausted and other aspects of the topic have to be brought to light to help you understand an issue or topic.
It's not an avoidance or red herring....but rather extra information to better help you understand one's point of view.

 

[CrowCross]

They don't think that. They think the Pre-trib rapture will be a false rapture by the false christ and will be how the Apostasy happens. Most Pretribbers think the Apostasy is the rapture so it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.

I disagree. Most pre-tribbers think the apostasy is when the christians depart from the faith....despite the FACT "depart from the faith " isn't part of 2 Thes 2:3. Those words aren't there but assumed they are. They succumb to the "mandela effect". You do it.
The way I see it the changing of the world apostate to revolt was a theological bias based reason ...rather than a literal direct translation of "stand away from".
The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard or perception of the word "apostate" seen in modern bibles.

 

[CrowCross]

If you get a chance or the urge, what are your thoughts on this article ?

When Will the Lord Return? - doctrine.org

Henceforth is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me on that day: and not to me only, but unto all who love his appearing (2 Timothy 4.8). Introduction All who love…

doctrine.org

It's a long article...but to sum up what I think....those looking for the appearing of Jesus at rapture will receive a crown.

 

[ScottA]

It's a long article...but to sum up what I think....those looking for the appearing of Jesus at rapture will receive a crown.

"But each one in his own order."

 

[CrowCross]

You (and the post trib crowd also) are just looking at it all wrong.

Everything in scripture is not some event on a timeline. You are thinking as a man limited to worldly logic. God on the other hand--in all of scripture--is not, just part. And you are not fully considering what the rapture is--only half of the event is in this world. If you can understand that, then also understand that regardless of what you believe of the timing, it also effects all people. Now, with those two factors, connect the dots.

• Pretrib doesn't account for half of what is true of the event.
• Neither does Posttrib.
• Neither does Midtrib.

Each of those don't fully account for everything from God's perspective. Remember, He is the one describing the event, so it's going to make the most sense from His perspective.

Okay, now for the rapture effecting all people. God told of what would occur with the dead--but he was speaking with people who barely understood this world, let alone His eternal portion of this two part event. Sooo...like stories of bread and lambs and sheep and water and armor and swords and bodies and figs--common on now--He spoke their language when describing--not a worldly event only...but an all-time, eternal event. He was speaking baby-talk to children! Which is not the level a mature person ought to imagine a biblical doctrine--heaven forbid! No, but what is needed is to understood beyond that "bread" and "lambs" level--and consider the higher thoughts of God.

In other words, the starting point of understanding is not men's imaginations and logic--but God's. From His perspective, the rapture brings every child of God from every time in all of history--to Him (to eternity), dead or alive...which just happens to occur simultaneously when everyone dies. Imagine that! Eternity commences when everyone dies--but--as Paul threw in "but, each one in his own order."

Woll, woll...what about all the verses that-- You mean those elementary, first words, spoken to children? Well--which one--which verse or passage doesn't fit into the rapture being half eternal in the presence of God, and only possibly occurring when "each one" dies?

Common everybody, time for everyone to get out of the kiddie pool! Which verse--which one?

Anyone?

My view is the rapture EVENT...is when the dead in Christ, that is every believer in Christ through out history who has died will be raised from the grave like Jesus was raised form grave will ascend into the "clouds" and meet Jesus in the air. Their resurrected now glorified bodies will then be joined with their spirit that went to heaven when they died.
Just after that moment of resurrection those believers in Christ who have not died...still living....will then be taken up into the air....receive glorified bodies...then all the dead in Christ and all those still alive in Christ will return to heaven with Jesus.

To mock people for not believing what you believe..saying they are in the kiddie pool...as if you, you, you corner the market on "rapture" theology is extremely insulting and your ad-homimen remark is uncalled for.

 

[CrowCross]

A TRIBULATION saint has the ability to become UNsaved by what they do or don't whereas today, now, currently that is not possible for a Paul age saint according to the teachings of Christ through Paul.
Here is the problem :-
If a Paul age saint cannot become UNsaved yet a TRIBUALTION saint can, how can they both exist in the same 'age' ?

The way I see it is that if you can become un-saved....then you have already lost your salvation.

Using the standards that one who believes you can become unsaved....has already failed their own standard.

 

[CrowCross]

Nope. It's speaking of a resurrection not moving someone up to the clouds in the gathering.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This verse mentions two people groups......
1)The dead.
2) The "we'.

 

[CrowCross]

<chuckles>


Ah, so your "return 1" is not physical... despite what we read in, for instance, Acts 1, particularly, "This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven..." (Acts 1:11). My goodness... "two returns"... <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you.

Long sigh......The physical return is when Jesus physically return to earth and stands on earth.
Zech 14:4 speaks of it
On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

At the rapture Jesus stops in the sky, gathers the saints then returns to heaven (John 14:1-4)....Jesus doesn't stand on the Mt. of Olives in 1 Thes 4.

Jesus returns twice.

 

[CrowCross]

"But each one in his own order."

I agree. The dead in christ are resurrected then raptured by Jesus....then...those that are alive are raptured...and BOTH return to heaven with Jesus.

 

[CrowCross]

Eve connected the dots = it's not hard to do!

After Eve connected the dots, her son Cain collected rocks!

All pre-fibbers are heading for the school of hard knocks!

Once again you assume incorrectly. Where does the bible say Cain used a rock to kill Abel?

Calling other christians "fibbers" is a derogatory ad-homimen remark....

 

[GRACE ambassador]

You posted a passage where Jesus sends angels to gather after the trib.

Correct, This gathering by angels can't be pre-trib "Meeting Christ In the air, Because:

1) God's Context Is Prophecy, for Isreal:

2) He, The King Is Already Seated On His Earthly Throne, Sounds A [ Last, Not a Seventh angel! ] trumpet,
and Then Sends the angels to gather sheep to the Judgment for Entrance Into The Earthly Kingdom!
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:31-46 AV)

3) How Exactly is that a post-trib which is Not found in God's Mystery Context?:

Context makes a difference.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Definately the rapture and meeting in the clouds.

Amen! Studying prayerfully and Carefully God's Precious Word Of Truth, "Decently and in order" (Rule # 1), "Rightly
Divided" (Rule # 2), with Context has been my Bible study Rule # 3, (et al) for a long time now!

My goodness... "two returns"... <chuckles>

Will this "good(?) work" make it at The Bema Judgment Seat (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)?

Just wondering...

------------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[PinSeeker]

Long sigh......The physical return is when Jesus physically return to earth and stands on earth.

<chuckles> I agree, and there is no other.

Zech 14:4 speaks of it
On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

And I agree that Zechariah here speaks of it, but... <smile> This is... a very... wooden understanding of Zechariah's prophecy. I most certainly agree that there will be a great division, though... <smile>

At the rapture...

There is no "rapture" in the sense that... many understand it... Jesus will most certainly... seize ~ 'harpazo' in the Greek, as Paul refers to the event in 1 Thessalonians 4 ~ once and for all, what is and who are is His own. In the sense that anyone "goes" anywhere, though, it won't be Jesus or His Church, but rather (three bullet points here, but all referring to one group of folks):

• those who will have been resurrected to judgment (as opposed to those who will have been resurrected to eternal life; John 5:28-29)...
• those on His left in the final judgment (as opposed to those on His right; Matthew 25:31-46)
• those not in the congregation of the righteous and thus not stand in the judgment, those going the way of the wicked (Psalm 1).

These will be the ones Jesus never knew and will depart from Him (Matthew 7:23)... will go away into eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46)... at Jesus's final command to them.

Jesus stops in the sky, gathers the saints then returns to heaven (John 14:1-4)....

What Jesus says in John 14:1-4 is both in the immediate context... like the thief crucified on Jesus's right, who was with Jesus in paradise that very day, and so will we be when we die, if we die before Jesus's return... and the final context... when, in John's vision in Revelation 21:1-8, heaven comes down to us and all things are finally made new by God, when... well...

"...the holy city, new Jerusalem, (comes) down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband," when, finally, "the dwelling place of God is with man" and He "dwells with us, and we are His people, and God Himself is with us as our God, when He wipes away every tear from our eyes, and death is no more, and there is no mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things will have passed away."​

Regarding both an immediate context and a final context, that same thing applies to Zechariah's prophecy above, too; it both is now true and will be true... But there is no need for such... fanciful... "thinking"... <smile>

Jesus doesn't stand on the Mt. of Olives in 1 Thes 4.

You misunderstand this... "standing"... I mean I'm sure He will stand somewhere, but... <smile> You will remember, I'm sure, that Jesus preached a great sermon on the Mount of Olives (Matthew 5-7), and what He said will be the only thing left... standing. Like as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:24-25, quoting Isaiah 40:6-8... "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the Word of the Lord stands/endures/remains forever."

Jesus returns twice.

He does not; there is no need. You'll see. <smile> We all will. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Will this "good(?) work" make it at The Bema Judgment Seat (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)?

Just wondering...

Sorry, GA, I don't really understand what you're getting at with your question here. And "just wondering"... hmmm... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

Once again you assume incorrectly. Where does the bible say Cain used a rock to kill Abel?

Calling other christians "fibbers" is a derogatory ad-homimen remark....

Lying is sin = Proverbs 30:6
pre-trib rapture is a LIE = pre-fibbers


Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[CrowCross]

<chuckles> I agree, and there is no other.


And I agree that Zechariah here speaks of it, but... <smile> This is... a very... wooden understanding of Zechariah's prophecy. I most certainly agree that there will be a great division, though... <smile>


There is no "rapture" in the sense that... many understand it... Jesus will most certainly... seize ~ 'harpazo' in the Greek, as Paul refers to the event in 1 Thessalonians 4 ~ once and for all, what is and who are is His own. In the sense that anyone "goes" anywhere, though, it won't be Jesus or His Church, but rather (three bullet points here, but all referring to one group of folks):

• those who will have been resurrected to judgment (as opposed to those who will have been resurrected to eternal life; John 5:28-29)...
• those on His left in the final judgment (as opposed to those on His right; Matthew 25:31-46)
• those not in the congregation of the righteous and thus not stand in the judgment, those going the way of the wicked (Psalm 1).

These will be the ones Jesus never knew and will depart from Him (Matthew 7:23)... will go away into eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46)... at Jesus's final command to them.

What Jesus says in John 14:1-4 is both in the immediate context... like the thief crucified on Jesus's right, who was with Jesus in paradise that very day, and so will we be when we die, if we die before Jesus's return... and the final context... when, in John's vision in Revelation 21:1-8, heaven comes down to us and all things are finally made new by God, when... well...

"...the holy city, new Jerusalem, (comes) down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband," when, finally, "the dwelling place of God is with man" and He "dwells with us, and we are His people, and God Himself is with us as our God, when He wipes away every tear from our eyes, and death is no more, and there is no mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things will have passed away."​

Regarding both an immediate context and a final context, that same thing applies to Zechariah's prophecy above, too; it both is now true and will be true... But there is no need for such... fanciful... "thinking"... <smile>


You misunderstand this... "standing"... I mean I'm sure He will stand somewhere, but... <smile> You will remember, I'm sure, that Jesus preached a great sermon on the Mount of Olives (Matthew 5-7), and what He said will be the only thing left... standing. Like as Peter says in 1 Peter 1:24-25, quoting Isaiah 40:6-8... "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the Word of the Lord stands/endures/remains forever."


He does not; there is no need. You'll see. <smile> We all will. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

You're not connecting the dots.

 

[CrowCross]

Lying is sin = Proverbs 30:6
pre-trib rapture is a LIE = pre-fibbers


Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Please take your anti-christ message elsewhere.

 

[PinSeeker]

You're not connecting the dots.

Oh, I do see your... "connections"... and I've seen them all before... buuuuut-tuuuh.... <smile> I mean, it's the... well, gymnastics... that you and other pre-trib folks have to do to make them that's the problem... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.