Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[David in NJ]

If you say so.

Connect the dots....it's not that hard to do.

Eve connected the dots = it's not hard to do!

After Eve connected the dots, her son Cain collected rocks!

All pre-fibbers are heading for the school of hard knocks!

 

[ScottA]

A TRIBULATION saint has the ability to become UNsaved by what they do or don't whereas today, now, currently that is not possible for a Paul age saint according to the teachings of Christ through Paul.
Here is the problem :-
If a Paul age saint cannot become UNsaved yet a TRIBUALTION saint can, how can they both exist in the same 'age' ?

They don't. But they do enter eternity [in rapture] together. Because, even though everyone leaves this world "but each one in his own order", eternity is eternity.

 

[PinSeeker]

That is not what I was saying.

<chuckles>

Return 1 is the pre-trib rapture then return two is the physical return in Rev 19.

Ah, so your "return 1" is not physical... despite what we read in, for instance, Acts 1, particularly, "This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven..." (Acts 1:11). My goodness... "two returns"... <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[CrowCross]

You are changing the discussion from what we were discussing to something else. It's an avoidance known as a red herring fallacy. If you want to continue discussing what 1Co 15:52 says and does not say, let me know.

No they're not....and you need to understand that. Often a topic is exhausted and other aspects of the topic have to be brought to light to help you understand an issue or topic.
It's not an avoidance or red herring....but rather extra information to better help you understand one's point of view.

 

[CrowCross]

They don't think that. They think the Pre-trib rapture will be a false rapture by the false christ and will be how the Apostasy happens. Most Pretribbers think the Apostasy is the rapture so it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.

I disagree. Most pre-tribbers think the apostasy is when the christians depart from the faith....despite the FACT "depart from the faith " isn't part of 2 Thes 2:3. Those words aren't there but assumed they are. They succumb to the "mandela effect". You do it.
The way I see it the changing of the world apostate to revolt was a theological bias based reason ...rather than a literal direct translation of "stand away from".
The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard or perception of the word "apostate" seen in modern bibles.

 

[CrowCross]

If you get a chance or the urge, what are your thoughts on this article ?

When Will the Lord Return? - doctrine.org

Henceforth is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me on that day: and not to me only, but unto all who love his appearing (2 Timothy 4.8). Introduction All who love…

doctrine.org

It's a long article...but to sum up what I think....those looking for the appearing of Jesus at rapture will receive a crown.

 

[ScottA]

It's a long article...but to sum up what I think....those looking for the appearing of Jesus at rapture will receive a crown.

"But each one in his own order."

 

[CrowCross]

You (and the post trib crowd also) are just looking at it all wrong.

Everything in scripture is not some event on a timeline. You are thinking as a man limited to worldly logic. God on the other hand--in all of scripture--is not, just part. And you are not fully considering what the rapture is--only half of the event is in this world. If you can understand that, then also understand that regardless of what you believe of the timing, it also effects all people. Now, with those two factors, connect the dots.

• Pretrib doesn't account for half of what is true of the event.
• Neither does Posttrib.
• Neither does Midtrib.

Each of those don't fully account for everything from God's perspective. Remember, He is the one describing the event, so it's going to make the most sense from His perspective.

Okay, now for the rapture effecting all people. God told of what would occur with the dead--but he was speaking with people who barely understood this world, let alone His eternal portion of this two part event. Sooo...like stories of bread and lambs and sheep and water and armor and swords and bodies and figs--common on now--He spoke their language when describing--not a worldly event only...but an all-time, eternal event. He was speaking baby-talk to children! Which is not the level a mature person ought to imagine a biblical doctrine--heaven forbid! No, but what is needed is to understood beyond that "bread" and "lambs" level--and consider the higher thoughts of God.

In other words, the starting point of understanding is not men's imaginations and logic--but God's. From His perspective, the rapture brings every child of God from every time in all of history--to Him (to eternity), dead or alive...which just happens to occur simultaneously when everyone dies. Imagine that! Eternity commences when everyone dies--but--as Paul threw in "but, each one in his own order."

Woll, woll...what about all the verses that-- You mean those elementary, first words, spoken to children? Well--which one--which verse or passage doesn't fit into the rapture being half eternal in the presence of God, and only possibly occurring when "each one" dies?

Common everybody, time for everyone to get out of the kiddie pool! Which verse--which one?

Anyone?

My view is the rapture EVENT...is when the dead in Christ, that is every believer in Christ through out history who has died will be raised from the grave like Jesus was raised form grave will ascend into the "clouds" and meet Jesus in the air. Their resurrected now glorified bodies will then be joined with their spirit that went to heaven when they died.
Just after that moment of resurrection those believers in Christ who have not died...still living....will then be taken up into the air....receive glorified bodies...then all the dead in Christ and all those still alive in Christ will return to heaven with Jesus.

To mock people for not believing what you believe..saying they are in the kiddie pool...as if you, you, you corner the market on "rapture" theology is extremely insulting and your ad-homimen remark is uncalled for.

 

[CrowCross]

A TRIBULATION saint has the ability to become UNsaved by what they do or don't whereas today, now, currently that is not possible for a Paul age saint according to the teachings of Christ through Paul.
Here is the problem :-
If a Paul age saint cannot become UNsaved yet a TRIBUALTION saint can, how can they both exist in the same 'age' ?

The way I see it is that if you can become un-saved....then you have already lost your salvation.

Using the standards that one who believes you can become unsaved....has already failed their own standard.

 

[CrowCross]

Nope. It's speaking of a resurrection not moving someone up to the clouds in the gathering.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This verse mentions two people groups......
1)The dead.
2) The "we'.