Pictures of Christ 2 returns...

[CrowCross]

The church will still be here as the point of the tribulation is persecution of the church. Some of the church will commit Apostasy, which is a departure.

If that's what you need to believe...go for it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The description of the "return" of Christ are sooooooooo different you can't make them the same returns.

What are you talking about? There are different aspects to His one future return. Not every passage contains all the same details about His one future return. There are not multiple returns of Christ.

Then where does it occur? Why is it not presented AFTER the return?

The text doesn't say. All we know is that we will meet Him in the air. And it's not said to occur 7 years before His return or whatever you believe. The wife/bride isn't even ready for it until His return, as Revelation 19 indicates. You are not even looking at the text carefully.

Not really as the tribulation saints don't have resurrected bodies and will not take part in the Rev 19 marriage supper.

All believers from all-time will take part in the marriage supper. You are trying to divide what the blood of Christ brought together in one body. Unacceptable.

Where is the parallel verse that shows this prophecy being fulfilled?

What are you talking about? Do you accept what Jesus said or not? He said the hour is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected. He didn't say the hours (plural) are coming when all the dead will be resurrected. He spoke very plainly and I accept what He said.

 

[ewq1938]

If that's what you need to believe...go for it.

It comes from the bible. Pretrib does not.

 

[Dryhn]

Performance never has been and never will be a requirement for entering heaven. Salvation is by God's grace through faith and not by works. Period. When it talks about works in relation to salvation, it's talking about people doing works which reflect their faith and the fact that they belong to Jesus. It has nothing to do with anyone having to earn their way to heaven, which is impossible.

"Performance never has been and never will be a requirement for entering heaven."
Agreed & confirmed :-
1 Cor 15:1-4
Eph 1:13
Titus 3:5-7
Gal 2:16
Rom 3:28
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1

 

[A Watchman]

That particular chart/table of mine does not have the resurrection/rapture event on it. That particular char/table is of the end times events have time frames attached to them. Here is again.

Yes, thank you. I've saved all your charts already except this new one below I'll grab. Just saying in a thread about 2 pictures of Christ's return, if you believe he comes in 2 pictures that might be good to have on the chart you post about it. Not really that important though.

The two witnesses don't die between the second and third woe. What the second woe will be is revealed in Revelation 9.13-21. Speaking about the woes is then suspended (to resume in Revelation 11:14)....


Revelation 10 begins with John being given a little book to eat and begin to prophesy again. So fresh prophecies begin in Revelation 11 about the two witnesses and their activities that end in Revelation 11:13.

Then in Revelation 11:14, speaking about the woes resumes....

Revelation 11:11, 14 – "And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. ... The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

I believe verse 14 being placed after their resurrection is placed there for a reason. The events following their resurrection, the earthquake and 1/10 of the city falling, and death of 7,000 men, is followed by a statement that at that point the second woe has already passed and the third woe is coming. I can understand how you read it the way you do, just a difference of how we take the words and their context.

What the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth is revealed in Revelation 12:12, Satan cast down to earth resulting in him being angry knowing that his time is short (a time, times, half time).

Here is a chart of mine that covers everything I wrote above...

View attachment 92947

I'm not sure how you interpret the third woe as Satan being cast down when we're told that the three woes are tied directly to the voices of the final three trumpet angels.

Revelation 8:13 – "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The third woe is what follows verse 14.

Revelation 11:14-15 – "The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

 

[A Watchman]

Daniel will return with Jesus. So the 1335th day is the day that Jesus returns to this earth, to Jerusalem.

The AoD setup............................1335 days.............................................Jesus returns day

The AoD is the starting point of the Dragon's wrath on God's people beginning in Judea, it's the reason Yeshua warned those in Judea to flee to the mountains. It's the beginning of the Beast's overcoming the saints.

Daniel 7:25 – "And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

Daniel 12:7 – "And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished."

Revelation 13:5, 7 – "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. ... And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

He is only given this power for 1,260 days/42 months/3.5 times and we know what ends his reign and kingdom.

Revelation 19:20-21 – "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

How can Yeshua come 1,335 days after the AoD when the power of the Beast is removed 1,260 days after it? What's the other 75 days after his reign ends before Yeshua returns? Will he just disband his kingdom 75 days before Yeshua returns and stop persecuting His people? What I see is the exact opposite, a defiant man of sin given power by the Dragon gathering armies to meet Yeshua in war at His coming. Foolish, but it's what the Bible says they do.

 

[ewq1938]

"Performance never has been and never will be a requirement for entering heaven."
Agreed & confirmed :-
1 Cor 15:1-4
Eph 1:13
Titus 3:5-7
Gal 2:16
Rom 3:28
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1

And this:

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[Dryhn]

And this:

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2Co 5:10 For we << Paul includes himself so it is only for SAVED believers

Rom 14:10, 1 Cor 3:10-15, 2 Cor 5:6-10 The Judgement Seat of Christ

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 13:5, 7 – "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. ... And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

He is only given this power for 1,260 days/42 months/3.5 times and we know what ends his reign and kingdom.

The 42 months of the beast's reign in Revelation 13:5-7 is without being opposed by the two witnesses who will have left this earth.

How can Yeshua come 1,335 days after the AoD when the power of the Beast is removed 1,260 days after it?

The 1260 days of Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 do not begin when when the AoD is setup.

 

[Douggg]

What's the other 75 days after his reign ends before Yeshua returns? Will he just disband his kingdom 75 days before Yeshua returns and stop persecuting His people?

From the time the AoD is setup on day 1185 (1335 days before Jesus returns) until the death of the two witnesses, for 75 days the two witnesses will call down plagues upon the earth (Revelation 11:6) to give cover to them in Judaea to flee to the mountains (Matthew 24:15-16).

See the 75 days down at the bottom of this chart.

 

[Douggg]

I'm not sure how you interpret the third woe as Satan being cast down when we're told that the three woes are tied directly to the voices of the final three trumpet angels.

Revelation 8:13 – "And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

Because the text of Revelation 12:12 says...

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I disagree. In a sense you're right...Jesus returns once, physically, but Jesus returns in the air to meet the christians in the clouds...then a "second" time when Jesus physically stands on earth.

The description of the "return" of Christ are sooooooooo different you can't make them the same returns.

Then where does it occur? Why is it not presented AFTER the return?



Not really as the tribulation saints don't have resurrected bodies and will not take part in the Rev 19 marriage supper.


Where is the parallel verse that shows this prophecy being fulfilled?

Rev 14 is the nail in the coffin for postribs.
They need changes to it.
The other nail is the "one taken" in mat 24.
I love it when they change it into a "pretrib rapture of wicked people."

What they display is scriptural insanity.

The problem is their starting place.
When a journey begins pointed the wrong way, it gets worse with every step.( a pretrib wicked man rapture..UH HUH...SMH)

We own end times doctrine.

 

[CrowCross]

And this:

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Fortunately there is two different Judgement seats.

 

[CrowCross]

The other nail is the "one taken" in mat 24.
I love it when they change it into a "pretrib rapture of wicked people."

I suppose they would say the wicked are taken in the 1 Thes 4:16 rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I suppose they would say the wicked are taken in the 1 Thes 4:16 rapture.

Lol.
That is where their doctrine leads.
...and they are oblivious to it.

It has to be a spirit blinding them.
A literal obsessing of deception.
It has to be a spirit.

...and note, they are COMPELLED to become RT.
(It is because of who the 144 000 are according to the bible)

What a horrible place, that false doctrine takes a person.
It is the picture of a beast carrying them into the desert and dying ....leaving them in a waste land of "their own paradise".

"All we know is we hate that satanic false pretrb rapture doctrine and the people deceived in it."
All the while immersed in deception and changing Gods word.

 

[A Watchman]

The 42 months of the beast's reign in Revelation 13:5-7 is without being opposed by the two witnesses who will have left this earth.

I don't see the two witnesses preventing any part of the Beast's kingdom. If anyone tries to hurt them personally, they're going to die. And yes, they have the power to send plagues on the earth, but that's not preventing any aspect of the Beast's kingdom from taking power and persecuting the saints.

The 1260 days of Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 do not begin when when the AoD is setup.

They why does Yeshua tell those in Judea to not even go back into their house when they see the abomination of desolation and just run for the mountains? That seems a pretty immediate warning to get out of Judea. If the persecution begins that quickly after the AoD, then the Dragon's persecution can be said to begin at the AoD as well through the Beast and his acolytes.

 

[A Watchman]

From the time the AoD is setup on day 1185 (1335 days before Jesus returns) until the death of the two witnesses, for 75 days the two witnesses will call down plagues upon the earth (Revelation 11:6) to give cover to them in Judaea to flee to the mountains (Matthew 24:15-16).

See the 75 days down at the bottom of this chart.

View attachment 93052

You break down some detail not found in scripture, such as the 75 days the two witnesses call down plagues to earth. The context is in the days of their prophecy, which doesn't limit it to a period of 75 days.

Revelation 11:6 – "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

You also have the sixth seal return of Yeshua 45 days before Armageddon and Him returning then to the Mount of Olives. This puts the sixth seal at the end around the sixth bowl, but the seven trumpets are not given to the angels until the seventh seal is broken.

Revelation 8:1-2 – "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

And assuming your trumpets and bowls section is aligned to the sequence of time in the chart below, it's all over the place with the seventh trumpet, the third woe, first all happening before the sixth seal is broken.

Then Daniel 8 is already fulfilled and speaks to Chanukah and the re-dedication of the temple after 2,300 evening and morning sacrifices missed, 1,150 days since the daily was stopped. The books of Maccabees lays out the details. This is the same as that in Daniel 11:31 that were historically fulfilled. Daniel 12:1,11 and Daniel 9:27 are still future.

As to the idea of 2 returns, you place the sign of the Son of man at the sixth seal 45 days before Armageddon as the two pictures, yet you also have Him returning prior to the sixth seal. Do you take Matthew 24:29-30a as separate from 30b-31? Does Yeshua come on the clouds of heaven at the sixth seal 45 day before He comes on the white horse from heaven at Armageddon?

 

[A Watchman]

Because the text of Revelation 12:12 says...

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So the phrase "woe to the inhabitors of the earth" being used anywhere in scripture ties it to Satan being cast down, ignoring that the three woes in the context of Revelation is explicitly tied to the last three trumpets? Where in the last three trumpets is Satan seen being cast from heaven?

Is it not possible that woe (G3759 ouai) used 47 times in 36 verses in the New Testament has it's own meaning of alas or woe depicting grief? And that the wicked on the earth who hate God and go after a false idol as their god should be expecting great grief as announced from heaven?

That can be true of both the Dragon being cast down to deceive the nations because he takes their eternal lives in deception and it can be true of the wrath of God because it brings their eternal torment because they follow the Dragon more quickly.

 

[A Watchman]

The other nail is the "one taken" in mat 24.
I love it when they change it into a "pretrib rapture of wicked people."

I actually think the one taken speaks to the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea. Luke 17:26-37 clarifies some of the oddities of Matthew's account.

Matthew 24:15-28 depicts the unparalleled time in Judea started at the abomination of desolation that is cut short by the return of Yeshua. It speaks of deception regarding a false messiah and warns to flee, ending with "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." Matthew then goes back to this time about the unknown day and hour of His coming, speaking of the days of Noah and one taken one left.

Luke 17:26-37 brings this all together in one narrative that makes sense of the one taken and one left in the days of the coming of the Son of man, because that unparalleled time before Yeshua returns to save His people out of it is a time of unparalleled ripping apart of the family of Jacob. The one taken is killed and the birds gather to feast, they are the ones who refused the false messiah and didn't flee while the one left is the one who capitulates and accepts the false messiah and is allowed to live.

The abomination of desolation and return of Christ and the wrath of God all take place within a period of around a month, these are the days of the coming of Christ in which martyrs are killed in Judea who didn't flee to the mountains and the remnant faithful to God will see Him coming on the clouds of heaven and look on Him whom they pierced and mourn. He will save them into the wilderness and protect them there from the false messiah, but those days from the abomination of desolation to His coming will see a lot of death.

Read Joel 2 and I think we see this zealous army of followers of the false messiah, climbing walls and entering into windows like thieves. They're enforcing worship of the false messiah and killing all who reject him, an unstoppable army going through Judea with the zeal of their false god leading them to kill their own friends and family in his name, drunk on the blood of the saints. In their mind, the Messiah has come, but in their blindness they've been deceived.

At Yeshua's first parousia, the Jews were partly divided and the zealous that rejected Yeshua persecuted and killed Him and His followers. Before His second parousia the 12 tribes will be back in the land, mostly blinded to Yeshua and accepting a man of sin, a Dragon in lamb's clothing. Instead of persecuting and killing for going after Yeshua like the first century, an unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble will rip families apart as those following a man who came in his own name persecutes and kills those who won't follow after him.

 

[Douggg]

You also have the sixth seal return of Yeshua 45 days before Armageddon and Him returning then to the Mount of Olives

The sixth seal event reveals the Sign of the Son of man in heaven. Jesus's return down to earth does not take place until 45 days later.

Matthew 2430 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This puts the sixth seal at the end around the sixth bowl, but the seven trumpets are not given to the angels until the seventh seal is broken.

The seventh seal was opened by Jesus back when John was in heaven. It revealed the end times event of the seven angels being given the seven trumpets.