Pictures of Christ 2 returns...

[A Watchman]

Lol.
You are presenting the "one taken" as a "wicked man raptured before the flood"
A pretrib rapture of wicked people.

Wow.
It gets worse every day..

Actually I'm not. I apologize for failing to present a cohesive case. The one taken is the faithful who didn't flee Judea as warned and are consumed by the wrath of the Dragon. It has nothing to do with the rapture. Why are the ones taken to where the carcass is feeding the birds?

Luke 17:36-37 – "Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body[G4983 soma] [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Matthew 24:28 – "For wheresoever the carcase[G4430 ptoma] is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

Note that Matthew 24:28 is the last verse covering the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea before Yeshua's return to

I know one taken one left is so ingrained in rapture ideology that it's quick to assume I'm also doing so. But I think if we examine what is said in the places it's said, it's actually referring to the time before the rapture and the murder of the saints at the beginning of the war on them in Judea. This leads to the wrath of God which we are removed prior to.

Daniel 7:25 – "And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

Daniel 12:7 – "And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished."

Revelation 13:5, 7 – "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. ... And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Revelation 17:6 – "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

Joel 2:1-3, 6-10 – "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, [even] to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. ... Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and [when] they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:"

The abomination of desolation to the sixth seal is the unparalleled time in Judea where anyone who rejects the false messiah and doesn't heed the warning to flee to the mountains will be killed. Joel speaks of this unparalleled army just before the sun, moon and stars event of the sixth seal, which he later states comes before the day of the Lord. So we have an unparalleled, unbeatable army climbing walls and entering windows like a thief that causes the faces of the people to be pained and gather blackness just before the sixth seal heralding the coming of the day of the Lord.

Matthew 24:15-16, 21-23 – "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not."

Given that this unparalleled time tied to this unparalleled army before the sixth seal requires the shortening of their time to save any of the elect, is it a surprise that in the time between the abomination of desolation and the sixth seal we would see Yeshua speak of those being taken in Judea are killed? The ones that are left are those who didn't reject the false messiah and are part of his kingdom so they remain to worship him, they are the righteous elect killed by the Dragon before the rapture.

Revelation 6:9-11 – "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled."

So I disagree that I'm "presenting the 'one taken' as a 'wicked man raptured before the flood'". I'm recognizing that the "one taken" has nothing to do with the flood or Sodom, just the time before it. Matthew's account makes it seem that way, but Luke is much more clear. Noah and Lot speak to God's wrath at the coming of the Son of man, but that same period is the great tribulation, the wrath of the Dragon on God's people. Both the Dragon's wrath and God's wrath begin in the same short period. Look at the indicators.

Matthew 24:28, 37-42 – "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. ... For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. ... But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Luke 17:26-37 – "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

The days of the Son of man's coming, the time leading to and including it will consist of sudden destruction like the days of Noah and Lot. It will also consist of an unparalleled great tribulation in Judea that the Son of man's coming will interrupt as He saves them into the wilderness, cutting that time short for their sakes. That should be an indicator that death is involved because if He didn't none would be saved and they would all be killed.

 

[A Watchman]

Half of the church raptured? LOL!!! Such nonsense. No one in the church will be left behind. Jesus said those left behind will become bird food. Have you never read Luke 17:26-37?

While I don't agree with rebuilder 454's pre-trib beliefs, I do think that 50% of those who claim to be the church will be shut out of the marriage. Matthew 25:1-13 The reason for being shut out is that Yeshua never knew them.

Isaiah 29:12-16 – "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"

Do you think nobody who participates in church or even runs a church could possibly fit into the category above?

Since the marriage takes place in heaven, Revelation 19:7-8, they are also shut out of heaven when it is opened for His return and our receiving to the throne. Revelation 7:9

In John's vision the churches are spoken to and those who don't repent are cast into great tribulation, Revelation 2:22, while the faithful are kept from the hour of temptation, Revelation 3:10.

This message to the church shows both "members" of them removed and cast into that great tribulation happening on the earth.

While pre-trib use this to suggest that the rapture comes before the tribulation, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 must also be taken into account as well. The recognition that 99% of the church is not in Judea and there are two phases of the Dragon's wrath on God's people, Revelation 12:13-16 and Revelation 12:17, we know that the great tribulation will not spread globally until Yeshua comes to save Israel out of this unparalleled time into the wilderness. Since that is the same time the faithful church is caught up to Him, they never personally experience the great tribulation even though it started some 30 days prior.

I personally think these scriptures, along with personal observation, speak to not all those who say they are Christians actually having a relationship or showing the fruits of any relationship with Yeshua and He is coming back for a bride who actually loves and obeys Him, not someone who draw near with their lips but whose hearts are set on their own worldly desires.

 

[Douggg]

How does the (sixth seal event) take place at the very end of the trumpets and bowls?

Because in the sixth seal event the universe is parted and the world sees Jesus in the third heaven.

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[A Watchman]

Because in the sixth seal event the universe is parted and the world sees Jesus in the third heaven.

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The wrath of the Lamb begins after the sixth seal, which is before the trumpets and bowls which are the wrath of the Lamb.

Revelation 15:1 – "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

For the seven bowls to be seven last plagues that fill up, complete, the wrath of God, others must have come before the seven started, which is exactly what we see after the seventh seal, which comes after the sixth seal.

Revelation 8:1-2 – "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

You have the trumpets and bowls starting before the sixth seal when the wrath of the Lamb is about to come on them whereas scripture has them coming after the sixth seal, logically being the wrath of God they expect when they see Him coming on the clouds of heaven.

That the face of Him that sits on the throne is now focused on the destination of His wrath, whether they can see it physically or not, is not relegated to happen only 45 days before Yeshua returns.

What makes sense is what Matthew 24:15-31 gives as an order of events in line with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and Revelation 6-8 that Yeshua's return is at the sixth seal to save Israel out of the unparalleled time in Judea so they aren't all killed and take them on wings of an eagle into the wilderness. At the same time the dead in Christ are raised incorruptible and the living changed to be caught up together to the clouds and gathered by the angels to Jerusalem where Yeshua has returned to save His people.

They will see Him at His coming and the faithful will repent and be saved, those who have already seen and believed will be caught up, and the wrath of God will begin with the first trumpet after both those are secured and sealed in their places. Revelation 7

After the seventh seal is removed and the scroll read by the only one worthy to carry out the repayment of debt, the trumpets begin the wrath of God and the bowls finish it. And so the wages of sin become death as He treads the winepress of the wrath of God in the earth. Since Israel is protected for 1,260 days from the face of the Dragon, this must happen about 3.5 times before Armageddon when He comes from heaven wearing the evidence of His wrath. Isaiah 63:1-6, Revelation 19:13

 

[Douggg]

The wrath of the Lamb begins after the sixth seal, which is before the trumpets and bowls which are the wrath of the Lamb.

The trumpet plagues and the bowls (the vials of God's wrath) are during the great tribulation. The sixth seal event is near the end of the great tribulation.

 

[ewq1938]

The trumpet plagues and the bowls (the vials of God's wrath) are during the great tribulation. The sixth seal event is near the end of the great tribulation.

It is after the trib is over, and it's called the 7th trump. The 6th seal is prophecy of 7th trump events but from the perspective of the unsaved.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually I'm not. I apologize for failing to present a cohesive case. The one taken is the faithful who didn't flee Judea as warned and are consumed by the wrath of the Dragon. It has nothing to do with the rapture. Why are the ones taken to where the carcass is feeding the birds?

Luke 17:36-37 – "Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body[G4983 soma] [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Matthew 24:28 – "For wheresoever the carcase[G4430 ptoma] is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

Note that Matthew 24:28 is the last verse covering the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea before Yeshua's return to

I know one taken one left is so ingrained in rapture ideology that it's quick to assume I'm also doing so. But I think if we examine what is said in the places it's said, it's actually referring to the time before the rapture and the murder of the saints at the beginning of the war on them in Judea. This leads to the wrath of God which we are removed prior to.

Daniel 7:25 – "And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

Daniel 12:7 – "And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished."

Revelation 13:5, 7 – "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months. ... And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Revelation 17:6 – "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

Joel 2:1-3, 6-10 – "Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, [even] to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. ... Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and [when] they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:"

The abomination of desolation to the sixth seal is the unparalleled time in Judea where anyone who rejects the false messiah and doesn't heed the warning to flee to the mountains will be killed. Joel speaks of this unparalleled army just before the sun, moon and stars event of the sixth seal, which he later states comes before the day of the Lord. So we have an unparalleled, unbeatable army climbing walls and entering windows like a thief that causes the faces of the people to be pained and gather blackness just before the sixth seal heralding the coming of the day of the Lord.

Matthew 24:15-16, 21-23 – "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not."

Given that this unparalleled time tied to this unparalleled army before the sixth seal requires the shortening of their time to save any of the elect, is it a surprise that in the time between the abomination of desolation and the sixth seal we would see Yeshua speak of those being taken in Judea are killed? The ones that are left are those who didn't reject the false messiah and are part of his kingdom so they remain to worship him, they are the righteous elect killed by the Dragon before the rapture.

Revelation 6:9-11 – "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled."

So I disagree that I'm "presenting the 'one taken' as a 'wicked man raptured before the flood'". I'm recognizing that the "one taken" has nothing to do with the flood or Sodom, just the time before it.

Luke 17:26-37 – "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

The days of the Son of man's coming, the time leading to and including it will consist of sudden destruction like the days of Noah and Lot. It will also consist of an unparalleled great tribulation in Judea that the Son of man's coming will interrupt as He saves them into the wilderness, cutting that time short for their sakes. That should be an indicator that death is involved because if He didn't none would be saved and they would all be killed.

The word rapture means catching away or snatching away.
That is how I use it.
"One taken" = "one raptured"( no matter where that one is taken)
In your model, you have one taken ,which you claim is a wicked person.( you never made it clear)
You also claim it is pre rapture of the church.
( which all postribs do)
In your model, you need Noah to "go through the trib"
So you have the flood representing the trib.

When we add it up, you are suggesting a gathering by heaven, of wicked people pretrib.
(The postribber erroneous "wicked person rapture pretrib")

Your ENTIRE BASIS IS the wording "where the carcass is, eagles gather"

Which is beyond bizarre...because, if you play your doctrine out, you have a wicked person pretrib rapture, and those wicked people taken to 7 years in the future, to Armageddon.

But it gets even worse.
Jesus said half of some group are taken.
Postribber models have half the world taken and lost, and the other half saved.
That is 100% unscriptural.

Another item of interest is "taken" in the Greek, is "taken to a good place", in Matthew 24 "one taken"

Also in Matthew 24, Jesus tells them to "watch and be ready".
Your doctrine has wicked people watching for His coming, preflood/pretrib!!!!
Huh?????

That "wicked person pretrib rapture" fails in so many ways.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

While I don't agree with rebuilder 454's pre-trib beliefs, I do think that 50% of those who claim to be the church will be shut out of the marriage.

He wasn't talking about people just claiming to be part of the church. He's saying that only half of the people who are in the church will be taken in the rapture. That's utterly ridiculous. Anyone not part of the church, whether they claim to be or not, will be killed at that point, according to Jesus in Luke 17:26-37. He compared the event to what happened in the flood in Noah's day. Noah and his family were taken to safety in the ark and everyone else was killed by the flood. When the rapture occurs, all believers who are taken will be caught up to Christ and all unbelievers who are left will be killed.

Matthew 25:1-13 The reason for being shut out is that Yeshua never knew them.

Isaiah 29:12-16 – "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"

Do you think nobody who participates in church or even runs a church could possibly fit into the category above?

Since the marriage takes place in heaven, Revelation 19:7-8, they are also shut out of heaven when it is opened for His return and our receiving to the throne. Revelation 7:9

The marriage doesn't take place in heaven. It does not say that. It says the wife has made herself ready for the marriage at that point. It doesn't say it has taken place yet at that point. Please read the text more carefully.

In John's vision the churches are spoken to and those who don't repent are cast into great tribulation, Revelation 2:22, while the faithful are kept from the hour of temptation, Revelation 3:10.

This message to the church shows both "members" of them removed and cast into that great tribulation happening on the earth.

Nowhere does scripture teach that we need to be taken off of the earth to avoid temptation. That verse is talking about being protected from the hour of temptation, not being removed from it. The Greek phrase "tereo ek" is what is translated as "kept from" in that verse. It is found in only one other verse of scripture. This one...

John 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep (tereo) them from (ek) the evil one.

Why would you think that Jesus would be talking about beleivers being taken out of the world in Revelation 3:10 when He prayed that they would not be taken out of the world to avoid evil, but to be protected from it while still on the earth?

While pre-trib use this to suggest that the rapture comes before the tribulation, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 must also be taken into account as well. The recognition that 99% of the church is not in Judea and there are two phases of the Dragon's wrath on God's people, Revelation 12:13-16 and Revelation 12:17, we know that the great tribulation will not spread globally until Yeshua comes to save Israel out of this unparalleled time into the wilderness. Since that is the same time the faithful church is caught up to Him, they never personally experience the great tribulation even though it started some 30 days prior.

I can't follow what you're saying at all. The rapture will not occur until the day Jesus returns. That's what can clearly be seen in passages like Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

I personally think these scriptures, along with personal observation, speak to not all those who say they are Christians actually having a relationship or showing the fruits of any relationship with Yeshua and He is coming back for a bride who actually loves and obeys Him, not someone who draw near with their lips but whose hearts are set on their own worldly desires.

Of course He is only coming back for those who have genuine faith and belong to Him. He will tell those who only pretend to follow Him that He doesn't know them and they will be cast into the everlasting fire along with the rest of the unbelievers.

 

[rebuilder 454]

While I don't agree with rebuilder 454's pre-trib beliefs, I do think that 50% of those who claim to be the church will be shut out of the marriage. Matthew 25:1-13 The reason for being shut out is that Yeshua never knew them.

Isaiah 29:12-16 – "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"

Do you think nobody who participates in church or even runs a church could possibly fit into the category above?

Since the marriage takes place in heaven, Revelation 19:7-8, they are also shut out of heaven when it is opened for His return and our receiving to the throne. Revelation 7:9

In John's vision the churches are spoken to and those who don't repent are cast into great tribulation, Revelation 2:22, while the faithful are kept from the hour of temptation, Revelation 3:10.

This message to the church shows both "members" of them removed and cast into that great tribulation happening on the earth.

While pre-trib use this to suggest that the rapture comes before the tribulation, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 must also be taken into account as well. The recognition that 99% of the church is not in Judea and there are two phases of the Dragon's wrath on God's people, Revelation 12:13-16 and Revelation 12:17, we know that the great tribulation will not spread globally until Yeshua comes to save Israel out of this unparalleled time into the wilderness. Since that is the same time the faithful church is caught up to Him, they never personally experience the great tribulation even though it started some 30 days prior.

I personally think these scriptures, along with personal observation, speak to not all those who say they are Christians actually having a relationship or showing the fruits of any relationship with Yeshua and He is coming back for a bride who actually loves and obeys Him, not someone who draw near with their lips but whose hearts are set on their own worldly desires.

That same ratio is in mat 24.
"One taken/ one left behind, pretrib, watch and be ready."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That same ratio is in mat 24.
"One taken/ one left behind, pretrib, watch and be ready."

One taken and one left is pre-wrath with the wrath being the wrath of the Lamb that will come down on the day Jesus returns. In 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 Paul taught that the rapture will occur and then on the same day Jesus will take vengeance by bringing "sudden destruction" upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). You try to stretch out events that will happen in one day (the day Jesus returns) into events that happen over the course of several years and that completely contradicts what both Jesus Himself and Paul taught.

 

[A Watchman]

The trumpet plagues and the bowls (the vials of God's wrath) are during the great tribulation. The sixth seal event is near the end of the great tribulation.

The trumpet plagues and bowls cannot start until the sixth and seventh seals are opened and the scroll can then be opened. How can the sixth seal be after the events it portends?

Revelation 8:1-2 – "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

I keep posting the scriptural reasoning why the seven trumpets can't start until the seventh seal is broken. How can the sixth seal, which came before the seventh, occur after any of the trumpets have begun?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The trumpet plagues and bowls cannot start until the sixth and seventh seals are opened and the scroll can then be opened. How can the sixth seal be after the events it portends?

Revelation 8:1-2 – "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

I keep posting the scriptural reasoning why the seven trumpets can't start until the seventh seal is broken. How can the sixth seal, which came before the seventh, occur after any of the trumpets have begun?

Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and [a]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

How can what is described in relation to the trumpets all happen after the wrath of the Lamb (Jesus Christ, obviously) has already come at the sixth seal or shortly after (see Rev 6:16-17)? His wrath will come down on the day when He returns (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:11-21)? So, how can all of the trumpet events occurr even after He returns? That's not possible. The seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel to each other.

 

[A Watchman]

The word rapture means catching away or snatching away.
That is how I use it.
"One taken" = "one raptured"( no matter where that one is taken)

The various English translations are not the original Greek text. They may have similarities, but they are different.

Luke 17:36-37 – "Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken[G3880 paralambanō], and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body[G4983 soma] [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

This is to take to or take with oneself, a companion, which sounds very similar to the idea of being taken up to meet the Lord in the air. But the context can't be ignored. When asked where they are taken, it is where the birds gather around dead bodies.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 – "Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up[G726 harpazo] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

This is to take by force, to sieze, to pluck, or catch up. This is used in the context of our gathering to the Lord at His coming. The gathering idea is there, but the destination of that gathering is very different. We're resurrected and changed to immortal bodies and eternal life, not a graveyard where the birds gather to feast.

This same word harpazo is used of an unexpected catching away to the third heaven in some way, and of Yeshua's ascension to heaven as we will ascend at His coming.

2 Corinthians 12:2 – "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up[G726 harpazo] to the third heaven."

Revelation 12:5 – "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne."

Of course it is used in negative context to such as being seized unwillingly, but context matters and I'm just pointing out that the destination of those taken while the other is left leads to a destination of death while the third party seizing of believers to the clouds is to eternal life in immortal bodies. These are two very different pictures.

Matthew's account has an odd order that puts the dead bodies and birds out there at the end of the unparalleled time just before Yeshua's return at the sixth seal, yet it is in that same window Luke puts it in where those in Judea who do not heed the warning to flee to the mountains and then reject the false messiah will be killed for that rejection. They are taken to be killed while those left remain in the false messiah's kingdom. Then the Lord returns in glory. Matthew 24:28-31

In your model, you have one taken ,which you claim is a wicked person.( you never made it clear)

Then you are not actually reading what I wrote. I specifically said the one who is taken is at the very least rejecting the false messiah, but very well could be a righteous person as well. I suspect those taken will be righteous who are killed for remaining faithful to God in rejecting the false messiah. I do think there could be those that just don't believe the Messiah is God and the false messiah declaring himself to be God will cause them to reject him. These are those who will see the Lord coming in the clouds and repent and mourn. Will they be considered righteous for rejecting the false messiah if it wasn't because they believed in Yeshua? That's in God's area to determine, knowing their hearts.

I never said the one take in a wicked person. The wicked people are the ones taking the "one taken" to kill them.

You also claim it is pre rapture of the church.
( which all postribs do)

I'm not post-trib and I don't claim the "one taken" is the pre rapture of the church. I claim that "one taken" has nothing to do with the rapture whatsoever.

In your model, you need Noah to "go through the trib"

So you have the flood representing the trib.

In my model, Noah has nothing to do with the trib. The flood is representative of God's wrath, just as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was. Noah and Lot were saved out of the destination of God's wrath before it came.

When we add it up, you are suggesting a gathering by heaven, of wicked people pretrib.

(The postribber erroneous "wicked person rapture pretrib")

You're adding "numbers" I didn't give so I can understand your answer would be miles off. I honestly can't believe you came up with that. That's so far apart from anything I've read in scripture lol.

Your ENTIRE BASIS IS the wording "where the carcass is, eagles gather"

Which is beyond bizarre...because, if you play your doctrine out, you have a wicked person pretrib rapture, and those wicked people taken to 7 years in the future, to Armageddon.

Um, nope. There is no pre-trib rapture and the sixth seal and coming of the Lord is after the abomination of desolation in the midst of the 70th week, so it would be 3.5 years, not 7. But again I don't believe anything near what you're saying. The resulting conclusion from those taken to be killed is that those rejecting the false messiah are being killed for that rejection in the time after the abomination of desolation and prior to the sixth seal when the Lord returns in the midst of the 70th week.

But it gets even worse.

Jesus said half of some group are taken.
Postribber models have half the world taken and lost, and the other half saved.
That is 100% unscriptural.

Well I'm not a post-tribber and when the Lord catches up His faithful bride to heaven at His coming, the ones left behind are 50% of those who claimed to follow Him but He didn't know them. Matthew 25:1-13 But while they are cast into the great tribulation being left behind and will go through the wrath of God on the earth, they are still promised to reign with Him if they remain faithful and obedient to death during the wrath of the Dragon on God's people in the second half of the 70th week.

Another item of interest is "taken" in the Greek, is "taken to a good place", in Matthew 24 "one taken"

paralambanō is a verb and doesn't speak to a destination, that's taken from the context given. "taken to a good place" might be true in some cases.

Mark 9:2-3 – "And after six days Jesus taketh[G3880 paralambanō] [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them."

The fact that Yeshua took Peter, James, and John with Him does not mean He took them to a good place, but the fact that they then got to see the glorified Christ in the place where He took them would suggest they were taken to a good place.

To be taken to a place where dead bodies are feasted on by birds is a matter of opinion as to whether that's a good place.

Also in Matthew 24, Jesus tells them to "watch and be ready".
Your doctrine has wicked people watching for His coming, preflood/pretrib!!!!
Huh?????

The whole context of Matthew 24 is speaking to His followers, why in the world would the wicked pay His Word any mind if they hate Him and His Word? Nothing I stated suggests Yeshua is telling the wicked to watch for His coming pretrib, that makes no sense.

That "wicked person pretrib rapture" fails in so many ways.

Your straw man is very effective in taking down what you yourself built up. So many things I did not say, maybe some one could jump to conclusions on, but that's a silly game.

So I agree that "wicked person pretrib rapture" fails in so many ways. I'm glad I didn't come up with it.

 

[Sel@h]

The trumpet plagues and bowls cannot start until the sixth and seventh seals are opened and the scroll can then be opened. How can the sixth seal be after the events it portends?

Revelation 8:1-2 – "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

I keep posting the scriptural reasoning why the seven trumpets can't start until the seventh seal is broken. How can the sixth seal, which came before the seventh, occur after any of the trumpets have begun?

I agree. Not one trump will sound until the seventh seal is opened.

 

[Douggg]

It is after the trib is over, and it's called the 7th trump. The 6th seal is prophecy of 7th trump events but from the perspective of the unsaved.

Stop using the word "trib". Instead say "70th week" or "7 years".

The 6th seal event is not the 7th trumpet plague. The 7th trumpet sounded announces what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be. The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing that his time is short. Revelation 12:12.

 

[Douggg]

The trumpet plagues and bowls cannot start until the sixth and seventh seals are opened and the scroll can then be opened. How can the sixth seal be after the events it portends?

All of the seven seals were opened by Jesus when John was there in heaven. The opening of the seals revealed what events will take place in the end times.

The seven trumpet plagues and the seven vials of God's wrath, all take place during the great tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The various English translations are not the original Greek text. They may have similarities, but they are different.

Luke 17:36-37 – "Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken[G3880 paralambanō], and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body[G4983 soma] [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."

This is to take to or take with oneself, a companion, which sounds very similar to the idea of being taken up to meet the Lord in the air.

That is because that is what Jesus was referring to.

But the context can't be ignored. When asked where they are taken, it is where the birds gather around dead bodies.

The question they asked isn't where those taken will be taken. The question they asked is where will it take place that one is taken and the other is left? Jesus's answer is that it will happen wherever the birds gather around dead bodies. In other words, it will happen everywhere because His return is a global event and unbelievers will be killed throughout the world when He comes. That's why He compared that event to what happened to unbelievers in the flood which He specifically pointed out that it "destroyed them all" (Luke 17:28). When Jesus returns, all in Christ will be caught up to Him and everyone else will be destroyed. That is what is indicated in Luke 17:26-37 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4.

 

[A Watchman]

He wasn't talking about people just claiming to be part of the church. He's saying that only half of the people who are in the church will be taken in the rapture. That's utterly ridiculous.

Yes, if it's a distinction that only half of the faithful in the church in relationship with Yeshua are taken then I do not agree. The parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 is pretty clear that all the virgins were waiting for the bridegroom, but only 50% of them actually did because the five foolish virgins were shut out of the marriage and told by the bridegroom that He did not know them.

That would be my distinction, that not everyone who says they are a Christian is, just as is the case for the Jew. Romans 2:25-29 God knows the heart and of those that are His He will lose none, but a relationship is a two-way street and we must remain faithful and obedient to Him as our Bridegroom.

Anyone not part of the church, whether they claim to be or not, will be killed at that point, according to Jesus in Luke 17:26-37. He compared the event to what happened in the flood in Noah's day. Noah and his family were taken to safety in the ark and everyone else was killed by the flood. When the rapture occurs, all believers who are taken will be caught up to Christ and all unbelievers who are left will be killed.

Luke 17:26-30 is speaking to the day when the Son of man is revealed. It's tied to the destruction of God's wrath, but just because the flood was a sudden and all-encompassing event that destroyed all flesh but those in the ark doesn't mean the wrath of God will destroy all flesh by fire at once within the same time frame as the flood did. The point is not how long until the full effects of God's wrath are felt, but rather the sudden and unexpected nature of its beginning.

Verse 26 starts speaking about the days plural of the Son of man and verse 30 ends with Noah and Lot being associated with the day of the revealing of the Son of man at the sixth seal. It's just one aspect of the days of the Son of man coming because the time just before that is portrayed in the next verses.

Luke 17:31-37 begins with the event of the abomination of desolation as tied with Matthew 24:15-22. We know that is before the sixth seal that Matthew 24:29-31 says comes immediately after the unparalleled time of Jacob's trouble in Judea. Therefore, the ones taken to the corpse meal for the birds are during that unparalleled time before Yeshua's return.

I don't see how this points to all those being killed. The wrath of God is poured out for the duration of the Beast's reign until Armageddon and there are people when He comes back to kill yet.

Furthermore, Daniel 7 speaks to the three beasts having their lives prolonged though the fourth beast is destroyed. There are many other passages about the reign of Yeshua on earth where it is clear the nations must come on Tabernacles to worship Him and those that don't won't have rain. Zechariah 14

So I don't see it as an immediate or complete destruction of all flesh on the earth like the flood, though the majority will likely perish during this time. Even still, when the 1,000 years are completed there will still be an army of people in the earth to be gathered against Yeshua so not everyone will appreciate the iron scepter reign of His kingdom.

 

[A Watchman]

The marriage doesn't take place in heaven. It does not say that. It says the wife has made herself ready for the marriage at that point. It doesn't say it has taken place yet at that point. Please read the text more carefully.

Matthew 25:10-13 – "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

This parable is part of the Olivet Discourse and immediately preceding it was the warning to the church through the disciples to watch and remain faithful. Now the word for virgin is parthenos, which is a virgin, a marriageable maiden, a woman who has never had intercourse with a man, or one's marriageable daughter.

Matthew 24:45-51 – "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Now one can say it's just a parable and isn't related to the church at Christ's coming, but I personally believe it is placed here as part of the answer to the disciples question, "when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Revelation 19:7-8, 14 – "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. ... And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

The clothes that she is arrayed in are those of the army returning from heaven with Christ. And those called the virgins waiting for the bridegroom prior and up to His coming are here seen before they return from heaven called His wife. There is a distinction between the pre-marriage virgin and the post-marriage wife. The Greek gynē is interpreted as wife, a betrothed woman.

Matthew 5:31-32 – "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife[gynē], let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife[gynē], saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

Matthew 19:3-5 – "The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife[gynē] for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife[gynē]: and they twain shall be one flesh?"

Acts 5:1 – "But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife[gynē], sold a possession,"

Ephesians 5:22-33 – "Wives[gynē], submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife[gynē], even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives[gynē] [be] to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives[gynē], even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives[gynē] as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife[gynē] loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife[gynē], and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife[gynē] even as himself; and the wife[gynē] [see] that she reverence [her] husband."

So if the catching up of the virgins to the marriage and the transition to wife in heaven when the marriage is said to have arrived before returning at Armageddon is not a picture of the marriage in heaven, then I don't know what to tell you. I'm pretty sure I've read the text carefully, ensuring I look at the original Greek meanings to distinguish between an unmarried virgin before the marriage and a wife after it.

 

[A Watchman]

Nowhere does scripture teach that we need to be taken off of the earth to avoid temptation. That verse is talking about being protected from the hour of temptation, not being removed from it. The Greek phrase "tereo ek" is what is translated as "kept from" in that verse. It is found in only one other verse of scripture. This one...

John 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep (tereo) them from (ek) the evil one.

Why would you think that Jesus would be talking about beleivers being taken out of the world in Revelation 3:10 when He prayed that they would not be taken out of the world to avoid evil, but to be protected from it while still on the earth?

Actually, being removed from the earth produces the side effect of being kept from the hour of temptation. You can say protected too because that is also a relevant point. If the temptation to give up ones eternal life to save one's mortal life is happening on the earth, but you're not on the earth, then you are both kept from and protected from that time.

Revelation 3:10-11 – "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

The context is that a time unlike today or before is coming on all the world to try them that dwell on the earth. That is an all-encompassing statement is it not? So if we are kept from the hour of temptation that is coming on all them that dwell on the earth, the only place to be kept from it is not on the earth.

Now you say it's similar to being kept from the evil one and Yeshua didn't ask for us to be taken out of the world for all that time up to now, what's changed? Well it's not about the wrath of the Dragon that's been happening through his children since sin entered the world. Something distinctly different is coming that we are promised to escape from that directly ties to the days of Noah and Lot.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 – "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

It also comes unexpectedly like a thief to the world and they won't escape. But it doesn't come unexpectedly for those watching and they will escape. Escape what? The wrath of the Dragon, great tribulation? The day of the Lord comes as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:6, 9 – "Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. ... Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."

Jeremiah 46:10 – "For this [is] the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates."

Ezekiel 30:3 – "For the day [is] near, even the day of the LORD [is] near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen."

Joel 1:15 – "Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."

Joel 2:11, 31 – "And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it? ... The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."

Amos 5:18 – "Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light."

The fact that 99% of Christians live outside of Judea where the great tribulation begins and will be caught up before that tribulation spreads globally is a side effect of the second parousia of Yeshua to save His people in Judea out of that time. The promise in Revelation 3:10 is not about escaping persecution, it's about escaping the destination of God's wrath by fire, the world, before it comes as promised elsewhere in scripture.

I don't care about the world's persecution on me, I'm glad that my faithfulness and obedience to Yeshua means I won't fall under His wrath on the earth because as I'm faithful to Him, so is He faithful to me. I take comfort in this as is suggested we should. I don't feel guilty for not wanting to go through something never intended for me.

I can't follow what you're saying at all. The rapture will not occur until the day Jesus returns. That's what can clearly be seen in passages like Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

Of course He is only coming back for those who have genuine faith and belong to Him. He will tell those who only pretend to follow Him that He doesn't know them and they will be cast into the everlasting fire along with the rest of the unbelievers.

I agree, the rapture will not occur until the day Yeshua returns. That will be at the sixth seal to rescue His people out of Judea, cutting that time short, and resurrecting the dead in Christ immortal and changing the living immortal and bringing them all to Him at Judea to then go to heaven prior to His treading the winepress of the wrath of God.