Pictures of Christ 2 returns...

[A Watchman]

You don't seem to understand what the rod of iron represents. It doesn't represent Jesus ruling over people in the way you imagine. It is directly associated with destruction.

Psalm 2:7 “I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

This is a clear picture of destruction in relation to His rod of iron, just like we can see in Revelation 19:15. This lines up with passages like 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 which says that Jesus will be taking vengeance on unbelievers when He returns and destroying them. He will not be ruling over them on the earth. They will be destroyed. After that will be the judgment (Matthew 25:31-46) and then eternity will be ushered in.

You didn't read the other references to the rod of iron then?

Revelation 19:15 – "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

It's the smiting and ruling, both are true. He first judges the nations and what remains is ruled over.

2 Timothy 3:16 – "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Can you tell me how you interpret the following passage...


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

I did in a previous post, basically verse 8 is also part of verse 10-13 and we are explicitly told not to be ignorant of one thing.

2 Peter 3:8 – "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Being un-ignorant of that in agreement with Psalm 90:4, I see the day of the Lord starting with His return, since it is His day afterall, and judging the world after removing His bride.

Then, He returns at Armageddon to finally destroy His enemies and establish His kingdom in the earth for 1,000 years. Then the Dragon is released and the final defeat happens after which all the dead are brought before the great white throne and judged. Finally, death and hell are cast into the lake of fire and this heaven and earth are destroyed completely. That is the conclusion of the day of the Lord.

Then a new heaven and new earth are created and we live with God forever there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You didn't read the other references to the rod of iron then?

Revelation 19:15 – "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

It's the smiting and ruling, both are true. He first judges the nations and what remains is ruled over.

2 Timothy 3:16 – "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

How can He rule over those He has just destroyed? Your understanding of what it means for Him to rule with a rod of iron is clearly flawed. It's not the kind of rule you're thinking of. Just read Psalm 2:7-9. It refers to Him breaking (destroying) them with His rod of iron. Does that scripture make you think of someone ruling over living people for a long period of time? That's not what it's talking about at all. Scripture is clear that He will destroy all unbelievers when He returns (Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18). Believers, in contrast, will put on bodily immortality. What mortals does that leave for Christ to rule over the way you think He will? None. Amillennialism is the view that lines up with scripture, not premillennialism. Study the scriptures to see that this is so (Acts 17:10-11).

I did in a previous post, basically verse 8 is also part of verse 10-13 and we are explicitly told not to be ignorant of one thing.

2 Peter 3:8 – "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Being un-ignorant of that in agreement with Psalm 90:4, I see the day of the Lord starting with His return, since it is His day afterall, and judging the world after removing His bride.

You are not understanding the context of 2 Peter 3:8. It has absolutely nothing to do with the duration of the day of the Lord. Read the next verse and that will tell you the context of that verse.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

What verse 8 is saying is that time does not affect the Lord at all. He created time and exists outside of time. No amount of time makes any difference to Him, whether it's a day or a thousand years. That proves that He is not being slack (slow) to fulfill the promise of His second coming. From His eternal perspective where a day and a thousand years make no difference to Him, He is not being slow about that. That is the context of 2 Peter 3:8. Not the duration of the day of the Lord. Paul said the day of the Lord will bring "sudden destruction". How can that describe a thousand year period of time? It can't.

Then, He returns at Armageddon to finally destroy His enemies and establish His kingdom in the earth for 1,000 years. Then the Dragon is released and the final defeat happens after which all the dead are brought before the great white throne and judged. Finally, death and hell are cast into the lake of fire and this heaven and earth are destroyed completely. That is the conclusion of the day of the Lord.

Then a new heaven and new earth are created and we live with God forever there.

You are mistaken and your view doesn't line up with what scripture teaches about the day of the Lord. Your view contradicts 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which indicate that there will be sudden (quick) destruction of unbelievers when Jesus comes from which "they shall not escape" because they can't escape fire coming down upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12). None of what Paul and Peter wrote at all support the idea of a thousand year long day of the Lord. Not even close.

 

[A Watchman]

In that case, I'm sorry to say that you are not being very clear in your posts because you are not giving the impression that you agree with me with many of your comments.

Yes, that is clear. The problem is that everyone has their own interpretation of what a trigger word like tribulation or wrath, etc. means. So one person says pre-trib and a whole slew of ideological framework that pre-trib people have said floods into the conversation. I like to define my terms from scripture, but that usually takes some time to get through the walls everyone has up.

Who said anything about trying to avoid tribulation? Not me. I'm saying that there is no reason for us to be taken from the earth until the day Jesus returns and brings fire down upon His enemies (2 Peter 3:10-12). Why would we need to be taken off of the earth any time before that?

You said, "It never says we are not appointed to Satan's wrath. Many Christians have been persecuted over the past almost 2,000 years, so there's no reason to think that we would ever be taken out of the world to avoid that. Scripture absolutely does not teach that anywhere."

This suggested to me that you believe I hold this view of escapism and I was trying to clarify if you think whatever our belief in timing is makes a difference on whether or not we would actually escape tribulation. Personally I don't, but as I said, I think the desire of escapism is strong for anyone. I want to escape, but I don't really care as much about the tribulation of this world as my God looking on me with anger and wrath. I want to please Him, that's all and in so doing I'm not appointed to that wrath because I'm in a loving relationship with Him in obedience and subordination to Him as my King and my God.

I think it's important to get to deeper understanding before laying claims on another's beliefs. I've been told here I believe in so many things I never said or suggested, it's very interesting. Lots of misunderstanding without careful consideration based on jumping to conclusions.

You sure come across as saying something different in your posts. I think you need to proofread your own posts before posting them because I don't get the impression that you agree with me based on what you say in them.

I probably try and explain too much and most people don't really want to read as much as leap to defend their perspectives. I get it, I jump in on conversations too to clarify things or share my perspective. I find I learn a lot from trying to understand others' perspectives.

I certainly have a more nuanced view of prophecy that I usually come across. Typically there's a few camps people get sucked into, but as I've tried to explain there is nuance in prophecy that has to be taken into account to make sense.

All the back and forth about pre/mid/post-trib can be resolved with a deeper understanding of tribulation. Going deeper than the surface level isn't obvious and comes across as Peanuts talk, I get it. Part of the conversation is learning to refine my ability to explain it through many failed attempts.

Define your understanding of "wrath" in your pre-wrath view then. What does it entail exactly and how long does it last?

The "wrath" is that from God, written on the scroll the seven seals are sealing. It's the just repayment of sin, death. Just like Ezekiel's scroll, it is written on both sides full of lamentation and woe. Ezekiel 2:8-3:4 When all seven seals are broken, the wrath begins with the trumpets and is filled up and completed with the bowls.

Yeshua returns at the sixth seal to save His people out of great tribulation in Judea and take them to the wilderness for 1,260 days. When they are there and the 144,000 of the 12 tribes are sealed and the bride is before the throne in heaven, then Yeshua begins carrying out the wrath of God in the earth, treading the winepress. Isaiah 63:1-6, Revelation 14:18-2

The wrath comes in the midst of the week and lasts until just before Armageddon. The completion of the putting down of His enemies takes place in the destruction of the gathered armies after which time He sets up His kingdom in the land given to Abraham's Seed. Genesis 15:18-21, Galatians 3:16

 

[A Watchman]

How does that line up with what we see described in passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12? The word sudden means quickly, so Paul indicated that the wrath that will occur when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night will happen suddenly/quickly. Your view does not agree with that. And Peter indicated that the "sudden destruction" will be cause by fire coming down on the earth on the day Jesus comes as a thief in the night. Again, your view does not line up with that.

Yes, the word sudden means quickly, unexpected, unawares, but it doesn't mean complete. I don't disagree it will be sudden to those in darkness, but we're not in darkness that it should overtake us like a thief.

As for completeness when it comes, I just responded regarding the 2 Peter 3:8 and how that ties into 10-12 imo.

So, what is the reason you refer to Revelation 3:10 to support your view then? That verse does not refer to God's wrath.

That's the nuance of prophecy. Revelation 3:10 doesn't support my view, it's a by-product of what I see in scripture. I agree that it's speaking not of the wrath of God, but about the temptation to lose patience in the face of tribulation. Just as Yeshua was tempted with mortal sustenance, protection from harm, and power over the nations, those in the antichrist kingdom will be tempted to save their mortal lives during persecution and many will lose their eternal lives in the process.

Completely apart from that, the timing of the Lord's coming is laid out in scripture, apart from the exact day and hour. The exact day prophecies provide a framework of the 70th week.

The great tribulation begins at the abomination of desolation. Matthew 24:15-22
The great tribulation begins a 1,290 day period. Daniel 12:11
The Beast has power for 1,260 days from the abomination of desolation. Daniel 7:25, 12:7, Revelation 13:5
The Dragon gives his power and great authority to the Beast. Revelation 13:2
When the Dragon is cast from heaven he goes after Israel. Revelation 12:13
Yeshua returns at the sixth seal. Revelation 6:12-17, Matthew 24:29-31
Yeshua's return cuts short the time in Judea. Matthew 24:21-22, 29-31
Yeshua's return splits the Mount of Olives preparing a place of escape. Zechariah 14:4-5
The earth swallows up the flood chasing Israel through her way of escape. Revelation 12:14-16
Yeshua's return saves the woman into the wilderness. Revelation 12:14-16
Israel is protected in the wilderness for 1,260 days. Revelation 12:14-16
The 70th week is appointed to Israel and Jerusalem. Daniel 9:24
The trumpets are given to the seven angels after the seventh seal is broken and the scroll can be opened. Revelation 8:1-2
The wrath of God is poured out in the trumpets, thunders, and bowls. Revelation 8+
The Beast has his power taken away at Armageddon. Revelation 19:20

Given all of these markers in the week, it can be concluded that the sixth seal immediately follows the start of the great tribulation in Judea specifically. Contextually that is where Yeshua states it after "the tribulation of those days" speaking to Matthew 24:15-28

Israel is saved out of that time by His coming, including His returning as He left, Acts 1:9-11, and making a way of escape for her to flee and a reason that the earth swallows the flood of the Dragon. It's a second Exodus only by land and not sea this time. She is fleeing spiritual Sodom and Egypt where the Lord was crucified, through walls of earth that swallow the army chasing her into the wilderness.

She is protected there from the Dragon for 1,260 days and the 144,000 of her are sealed before the wrath begins. That means the Dragon is present and unable to get her in the wilderness. It also means that her protection began in the midst of the week.

The Dragon only gives his power and authority to the Beast starting at his coming being cast out from heaven at the abomination of desolation. Revelation 13 is focused on this time when the death and resurrection of the Beast causes the world to worship him and the Dragon. It all begins at the abomination of desolation and lasts for 1,260 days/42 months/3.5 times.

So if the Dragon and his Beast only have power for 1,260 days, they get Israel, but Israel is protected for 1,260 days in the wilderness from the Dragon, how does that work?

Daniel 12:1, 11 – "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. ... And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

The persecution starts at the start of the 1,290 days.
The woman is protected after the start of the 1,290 days for 1,260 of it.

That leaves at most 30 days from the start until she is protected from him. She is saved out of this time by Yeshua's return at the sixth seal.

That means Yeshua's return is in the middle of the 70th week, after the abomination of desolation, and He brings with Him the wrath of God, but first He must save Israel to the wilderness, seal her 144,000, and catch up His bride. Then the wrath begins. It's not long between these things and also means that the trumpets, thunders, and bowls would happen starting at the middle of the week and extend into Armageddon about 1,230 days later when the Beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and the Dragon sealed for 1,000 years.

What this means for Revelation 3:10 is that for only 30 days at most will the Dragon be persecuting faithful Israel in Judea. It isn't until after she is protected that he turns his attention to the rest of the world after she is purged from his kingdom by death and escape.

If you're in Judea, the great tribulation begins and if you don't flee you have a good chance of being killed before Yeshua returns.
If you're in Kansas, the great tribulation begins in Judea, but you're not going to experience the Dragon's wrath until after Yeshua returns.

If you're a faithful follower of Yeshua, you will be caught up when He returns. From the church perspective, this might be considered being kept from the hour of temptation. Revelation 3:10

If you're not a faithful follower of Yeshua, you will be left behind when He returns. From the church perspective, this might be considered being cast into great tribulation. Revelation 2:22

This is the nuance that comes from the details and taking every detail as true and placing them together to form a framework from what scripture says. It's not as simple and straight forward as saying I'm pre-wrath, but like I said, everyone has their own perspective on what wrath is so when I say that, I'm lumped into a group that may have appendages I don't agree with and why I try and share the details of scripture that most people won't read anyway because it's a long explanation that goes against their firmly held beliefs. But that's ok because it allows me the opportunities to think through how to explain in many ways.

 

[A Watchman]

You say your rapture view is pre-wrath. Would you also say it is post-trib, which would agree with what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-31?

This is where my statements cause the generic pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib people to lump me into a group. I've explained above what I believe, this is why I believe each of these groups rightly see their perspective in parts of scripture.

Pre-trib is subjective. If you live in Kansas and Yeshua returns before the Dragon spreads his persecution globally, for you personally it is pre-trib and you're kept from the hour of temptation. This being said, I recognize that objectively Yeshua's return is not pre-trib.

Mid-trib is accurate with definition. Yeshua comes to end the first Judean phase of the great tribulation in Judea after 30 days or less, cutting short the persecution to save them out of it. After that time, the second global phase begins over the next 1,230 days or so until Armageddon. I recognize that everyone's interpretation of tribulation will affect what mid means so I don't like to use it.

Post-trib is subjective. If you're in Judea the return of Christ is post-trib because His coming ends your persecution as you're either caught up if Christian, or protected in the wilderness for 1,260 days so if only believing in Yeshua when seeing Him come on the clouds of heaven. However, there are still 1,230 days or so of global tribulation left as the Dragon moves from Judea to the world and the wrath of God begins when He comes to remove His bride and continues during the Dragon's reign. This being said, I recognize that objectively Yeshua's return to catch up His bride is not after all 1,260 days of the Dragon's reign is completed at Armageddon. He returns at Armageddon with the blood-splattered clothes that evidence He tread the winepress of the wrath of God. Isaiah 63:1-6

Pre-wrath is accurate, recognizing that those not appointed to God's wrath will be removed prior to it. Since we are removed at His coming when He treads the winepress of the wrath of God, our removal is pre-wrath.

Understanding that the great tribulation is not one uniform period of 1,260 days, but is split into the unparalleled time in Judea for 30 days and the global spread for 1,230 days as laid out in Revelation 12, Daniel 12, and other prophecies, it's possible to see why each view sees some scriptures in them that bring them to their conclusions because this understanding reconciles them all based on subjective vs. objective reality and harmonizes the seemingly disparate prophecies.

I never said otherwise.

Yes, I was clarifying my belief that what we want has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture. I apologize for making it sound like that was saying you did say that.

Post-trib is definitely correct. Jesus explicitly taught it in Matthew 24:29-31 and the parallel passage of Mark 13:24-27. I'm defining the "trib" the way Jesus did and He said He will come and gather the elect after the trib. Are you defining the "trib" the way Jesus did or coming up with your own definition of the trib, as some people like to do, which causes confusion in these discussions?

All scripture must agree together. Think about what Yeshua said in Matthew 24:29.

Matthew 24:29 KJV – "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Tribulation of what days? Is He saying at Armageddon? What days of tribulation is He talking about. Now one could jump to all sorts of scriptures to define it, but what did He just finish explaining?

Matthew 24:15-16, 21-22 – "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

This is a very specific time that is unparalleled in all of history. Jeremiah 30:4-7 and Daniel 12:1 also use this language. Can you have three different mentions of an unparalleled time for Israel that they are saved out of or are these all speaking about the same time? We have three witnesses to this time in Judea for Israel specifically. We don't need to interpret beyond that, it's interpreted for us. No personal interpretation required.

If Israel in Judea is the focus, and this time is cut short to save them out of it, could Yeshua be speaking of the whole period of the Dragon's wrath on God's people? I don't think so, because we are told in Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, and Revelation 13:5-7 that this is a very specific and exact period of time, 3.5 times and 42 months. How do you cut short a time defined explicitly?

You don't, you recognize that the Dragon's wrath on God's people starts in one specific location focused on a specific people and Yeshua's return immediately after that time to save them out of it is not the complete 42 months of the Dragon's wrath, but just the initial phase of it in Judea so He can split the Mount of Olives and provide an escape to the wilderness.

So Yeshua Himself, if you pay attention to the context of Matthew 24:15-31, is saying exactly the truth that is supported by John's vision of the future and Jeremiah and Daniel's confirmation. He returns immediately after the tribulation of those days, not after all tribulation by the Dragon is finished. Those days is Matthew 24:15-28.

I'm not sure I can define the "trib" any more from Yeshua's mouth than that. The confusion is caused in lack of detail and generalizations.

Okay, so you know what I'm talking about as far as people not all defining the "trib" part of pre-trib and post-trib the same way. We should just stick to what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27) when determining whether the rapture is pre-trib or post-trib and, according to Jesus Himself, it will clearly be post-trib.

I agree, He will return to cut short the unparalleled tribulation in Judea, causing the Dragon to turn his focus globally because she is protected from him for 1,260 days. His return will split the great tribulation in two parts because the focus of the Dragon will no longer be able to reach Israel in the wilderness. That's the Biblical definition and I'm fine with that.

If you would explain exactly what your understanding of the tribulation is and what it entails that would be helpful so that we can be on the same page as far as what we're talking about here.

I did that above, but it starts at the abomination of desolation in the midst of the 70th week and continues for 1,260 days, 42 months, or 3.5 times as the Dragon gives the Beast his power and great authority and they go after the saints and kill them for the duration of that time.

Yeshua's return takes the Dragon's focus initially on Israel and refocuses it on the remnant of her seed outside Judea and those holding the testimony of Christ.

Yeshua's return about 30 days after the abomination of desolation splits the great tribulation into a 1 month period for phase one and 41 month period for the final phase that ends in Armageddon.

 

[ewq1938]

I get what you're saying and agree with the exception of the one taken because they're explicitly taken to the place of corpses, not good.

It's good. The army following Christ to Armageddon are those ones taken. They are taken by Christ, and those left are left by Christ.

Most read Noah and Lot in terms of the rapture, which is true. It's also true that it's in terms of the coming of Christ and the sudden wrath of God. Yeshua's return includes all those things. But it's also about the time before the flood came and before fire and brimstone rained on the cities. So to are the days of the Son of man, a period before and leading up to that time where the wicked will kill the righteous, the great tribulation.

The 7 examples Christ lists in a row are all examples of his return, not of the trib etc. The list I posted are all correct including the one taken and left...they all match. The Greek word for TAKEN doesn't mean to be killed anyways. It should not be interpreted that way. People conflate that word with another word translated taken/took regarding the flood. That's God killing nhose left/rejected by Christ not the saints being killed in the trib.

Anyways, just sharing my view. Do with it as you wish. Also happy to explain more, answer questions etc.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually it's opposite of the pretrib rapture because it's talking about the great tribulation, not the rapture at all. In this, the great tribulation comes before the return of Yeshua as stated by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and by Yeshua in Matthew 24:15-31.

I'm just reading Luke 17:31-37 where it repeats the unparalleled time from Matthew 24:15-22 pointing to Lot's wife dying for turning back to what they were fleeing from and stating that whoever seeks to save their lives will lose it and who will lose their lives will preserve it. This speaks of willingly giving up what has been built in this life to save your mortal life.

Then one taken and one left and when asked where the taken one went, it's the place of corpses. The pre-trib view typically says the taken is the rapture, I'm saying the taken is before the rapture during the great tribulation where the wicked take and kill those who reject the antichrist.

I don't know how to say it any more plainly I guess. It's not a cunning interpretation, it's trusting what Luke wrote of Yeshua's sayings, I'm literally taking Him at His Word.

Luke 17:31-37 – "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."



Either one taken one left is speaking of the rapture or it is speaking of the great tribulation.

Where the one taken goes where the carcasses are makes no sense to the rapture.

Where the one taken goes where the carcasses are makes complete sense during the great tribulation.



1) There is no indication in scripture of all people who exist whether or not half are saved or not. Matthew 25:1-13 is in the context of those waiting for the bridegroom, those who call themselves Christians whether they are truly or not. Of the population of the world we have no comparison to say percentages in scripture except that most people will not choose God. That is more than half of humans, but in the parable of the claimed Christian church only half are in a relationship with the bridegroom. That's half of an unknown proportion in the world.

2) The one taken and one left are not representative of the whole world, this unparalleled time is taking place in Judea. Matthew 24:15-22 And just because one taken is compared with another who is not does not mean it's a 50/50 ratio, it's simply pointing out that some are taken and some aren't. Those who worship the antichrist will be killing and stacking the bodies of those who reject him during the great tribulation. Just like they will rejoice and give presents when the two witnesses die and they leave their bodies in the street, these people who will follow the Dragon and his Beast rejoice in their victory over God's people. And they are given victory for 42 months.

3) There is no seven year tribulation in scripture. The references to the great tribulation begin at the abomination of desolation which is in the midst of the week. Daniel 9:27 It is this time when the killing begins, in the midst of the week, and continues for 42 months. Revelation 13:5, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

4) Yeshua's return is not pre-trib and He promised to never flood the earth again. He is coming pre-wrath because He is the one carrying out the wrath of God. Isaiah 63:1-6 The great tribulation begins at the abomination of desolation in the midst of the week in Judea, Yeshua returns to cut that short at His coming at the sixth seal and saves Israel into the wilderness, He also catches up His bride at the same time, and then He treads the winepress of the wrath of God with the seven trumpets, thunders, and bowls.

So that means the one taken and killed is under the altar at the fifth seal, Revelation 6:9-11, and will be resurrected at Yeshua's coming at the sixth seal, Revelation 6:12-7:17, Matthew 24:29-31. This is about 1,230 days or around 41 months before Armageddon in the midst of the 70th week.

That is what I believe and it's nothing like what you are suggesting I believe. So I have no idea how anyone could buy into that twist either, it's crazy.

QUOTE
"And just because one taken is compared with another who is not does not mean it's a 50/50 ratio, it's simply pointing out that some are taken and some aren't."

HELLO...that ratio is declared by Jesus 9 or so times.
So you ignoring it is telling.
You need it to not be a factor.
....yet it is written many times for emphasis.

Not only that , but almost in the same breath, Jesus gives another analogy a few sentences later, And we see again the 50/50 ratio of those that are ready, are taken, and those that are not are left behind.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Actually it's opposite of the pretrib rapture because it's talking about the great tribulation, not the rapture at all. In this, the great tribulation comes before the return of Yeshua as stated by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and by Yeshua in Matthew 24:15-31.

I'm just reading Luke 17:31-37 where it repeats the unparalleled time from Matthew 24:15-22 pointing to Lot's wife dying for turning back to what they were fleeing from and stating that whoever seeks to save their lives will lose it and who will lose their lives will preserve it. This speaks of willingly giving up what has been built in this life to save your mortal life.

Then one taken and one left and when asked where the taken one went, it's the place of corpses. The pre-trib view typically says the taken is the rapture, I'm saying the taken is before the rapture during the great tribulation where the wicked take and kill those who reject the antichrist.

I don't know how to say it any more plainly I guess. It's not a cunning interpretation, it's trusting what Luke wrote of Yeshua's sayings, I'm literally taking Him at His Word.

Luke 17:31-37 – "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together."



Either one taken one left is speaking of the rapture or it is speaking of the great tribulation.

Where the one taken goes where the carcasses are makes no sense to the rapture.

Where the one taken goes where the carcasses are makes complete sense during the great tribulation.



1) There is no indication in scripture of all people who exist whether or not half are saved or not. Matthew 25:1-13 is in the context of those waiting for the bridegroom, those who call themselves Christians whether they are truly or not. Of the population of the world we have no comparison to say percentages in scripture except that most people will not choose God. That is more than half of humans, but in the parable of the claimed Christian church only half are in a relationship with the bridegroom. That's half of an unknown proportion in the world.

2) The one taken and one left are not representative of the whole world, this unparalleled time is taking place in Judea. Matthew 24:15-22 And just because one taken is compared with another who is not does not mean it's a 50/50 ratio, it's simply pointing out that some are taken and some aren't. Those who worship the antichrist will be killing and stacking the bodies of those who reject him during the great tribulation. Just like they will rejoice and give presents when the two witnesses die and they leave their bodies in the street, these people who will follow the Dragon and his Beast rejoice in their victory over God's people. And they are given victory for 42 months.

3) There is no seven year tribulation in scripture. The references to the great tribulation begin at the abomination of desolation which is in the midst of the week. Daniel 9:27 It is this time when the killing begins, in the midst of the week, and continues for 42 months. Revelation 13:5, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

4) Yeshua's return is not pre-trib and He promised to never flood the earth again. He is coming pre-wrath because He is the one carrying out the wrath of God. Isaiah 63:1-6 The great tribulation begins at the abomination of desolation in the midst of the week in Judea, Yeshua returns to cut that short at His coming at the sixth seal and saves Israel into the wilderness, He also catches up His bride at the same time, and then He treads the winepress of the wrath of God with the seven trumpets, thunders, and bowls.

So that means the one taken and killed is under the altar at the fifth seal, Revelation 6:9-11, and will be resurrected at Yeshua's coming at the sixth seal, Revelation 6:12-7:17, Matthew 24:29-31. This is about 1,230 days or around 41 months before Armageddon in the midst of the 70th week.

That is what I believe and it's nothing like what you are suggesting I believe. So I have no idea how anyone could buy into that twist either, it's crazy.

QUOTE
"Either one taken one left is speaking of the rapture or it is speaking of the great tribulation.
Where the one taken goes where the carcasses are makes no sense to the rapture.
Where the one taken goes where the carcasses are makes complete sense during the great tribulation"

Way off.
The vultures eating carcasses is AFTER THE WRATH, and AFTER THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON.

the timing and setting of Jesus analogy is preflood.

You are blenderizing verses.
A viable model would need to fit.
Your model in no way fits.