- Aug 9, 2015
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Ummm... As per Yeshua` (Jesus) HIMSELF,Deborah_ said:It is often pointed out that Jesus never stood up and said plainly, “I am God.” (But if He had, what would that prove? Nothing!) He was obviously a man: He was born, grew up, ate, slept, and felt pain, sadness and fear. Finally He died. But somehow His disciples gradually became convinced that He was more than just a man…
For one thing, He had extraordinary power over sickness, demons and the forces of nature (e.g. Luke 8:22-56). He didn’t have to pray to God in order to obtain healing or deliverance for people – He could achieve these things, apparently without effort, by Himself. He was even able to give life to the dead – something that is God’s prerogative alone (Deuteronomy 32:39). And He went around forgiving sins (e.g. Luke 5:18-25; 7:36-50). The Jewish theologians picked up on this at once: only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).
In His teaching, He made no explicit claims to divinity – but He made many statements that, to Jewish ears, amounted to the same thing. He claimed authority over divinely given laws and institutions like the Sabbath (Luke 6:5). He claimed to be the final Judge of mankind (Psalm 9:7,8; Matthew 25:31,32). He made the same promises to His disciples that God had made to His people under the Old Covenant. (Deuteronomy 31:8; Matthew 28:20) And He took well-known Old Testament pictures of Yahweh and applied them to Himself: for example, He claimed to be the Shepherd of God’s people (Psalm 23; Ezekiel 34). This conversation (John 10:1-30) ended with the Jews attempting to stone Him for blasphemy (John 10:31-33). Finally, the night before He died He told His disciples that He was the embodiment of the Father (John 14:7-10).
https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/the-trinity/3-is-jesus-god/
Indeed - Jesus was in constant communication with His Father and did only what His Father wanted (He did not heal everyone, for example, at the Pool of Bethesda). But when He healed, He healed by His own power, whereas the most we ordinary mortals can do is ask for God to heal.Retrobyter said:Shalom, Deborah_.
Ummm... As per Yeshua` (Jesus) HIMSELF,
John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
KJV
So, when you say, "He didn’t have to pray to God in order to obtain healing or deliverance for people – He could achieve these things, apparently without effort, by Himself," that's not entirely accurate. First, He was praying to His Father ALL THE TIME! Second, He did ONLY those things that His Father wanted Him to do, ONLY those things that would please His Father.
You seemed to have missed the whole crux of the matter.Jesus told him; "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4:7). That answer directly implies that the devil wasn't just tempting the man Jesus, but God himself.
Apparently, you did not consider the whole account, for after Satan had stationed Jesus on the battlement of the temple, Satan quoted from Psalms 91 and said: "If you are a son of God, throw yourself down , for it is written: ' He (God) will give a command concerning you, ' and ' they (the angels) will carry you on their hands, so that you may not strike your foot against a stone' ".(Matt 4:5, 6)Dan57 said:Yes... When the devil tempted Jesus in the wilderness, Jesus told him; "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (Matthew 4:7). That answer directly implies that the devil wasn't just tempting the man Jesus, but God himself... jmo
No, He healed by GOD'S power, the power of His FATHER!Deborah_ said:Indeed - Jesus was in constant communication with His Father and did only what His Father wanted (He did not heal everyone, for example, at the Pool of Bethesda). But when He healed, He healed by His own power, whereas the most we ordinary mortals can do is ask for God to heal.
Similarly, when we exorcise demons we have to do so "in the name of Jesus" - we have no authority of our own, only a derived authority. But Jesus needed no such formulae; His word was effective on its own.
So its your contention that Jesus was just a man and not divine? "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:33). Were the Jews wrong? "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us" (Matthew 1:23). "And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). If Thomas was wrong, why didn't Jesus correct him?mjrhealth said:You seemed to have missed the whole crux of the matter.
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Now if Jesus had done as the devil had asked, it would of being Jesus tempting God, as He would have being asking God to prove Himself, He was also asking Jesus to prove whom He was, and he would have none of it.
"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30)... "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (John 14:9). "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6). Why did the prophet refer to the coming Savior as Mighty God and Everlasting Father?Guestman said:Apparently, you did not consider the whole account, for after Satan had stationed Jesus on the battlement of the temple, Satan quoted from Psalms 91 and said: "If you are a son of God, throw yourself down , for it is written: ' He (God) will give a command concerning you, ' and ' they (the angels) will carry you on their hands, so that you may not strike your foot against a stone' ".(Matt 4:5, 6)
And the Scripture at Matthew 4:7 does not say "tempt" (Greek periazo meaning to "to test...to entice") but rather "test" (Greek ekpeirazo meaning "to test thoroughly"), for Jesus said that "It is written: You must not put Jehovah your God to the test". James wrote that "with evil things God cannot be tried ("tried", Greek apeirastos meaning "not temptable") or be tempted.(James 1:13)
This brings up a couple of questions (1) Why did Satan call Jesus a "son of God" if he knew that is God ? (2) How could Jesus be God and yet need angels if he were to jump from temple battlement ? Many fail to seriously consider the full account, not using logic and reason to come to understand just who Jesus is.
By Jesus own words, he said that "the Father is greater than I am".(John 14:28) And Jesus readily acknowledged that "concerning that day and hour (when the great tribulation will begin, Matt 24:21) nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father".(Matt 24:36)
And when Jesus responded to the Jews as to how he was so knowledgable of the Scriptures, he told them: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His (not my own) will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality".(John 7:14-17) Jesus clearly distinguished himself from God by the Greek word "e" (meaning "or") that is "a primary particle of distinction between two connected terms".(Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible)
Over at John 8, Jesus tells the obstinate Jews: "After you have lifted up the Son of man (by putting him to death on a torture stake), then you will know that I am he (the promised Messiah) and that I speak nothing of my own initiative, but just as the Father taught me, I speak these things. And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself, because I always do the things pleasing to him".(John 8:28, 29)
This raises several questions (1) How could Jesus be God and yet never speak anything of his own initiative ? (2) How could Jesus be God and yet be taught, since the Scriptures clearly show that God is not taught by anyone (see Isa 40:13, 14) (3) How could Jesus be God and yet say that he has never been abandoned by the Father, that he has ' always done the things pleasing to the Father ' since God has to please no one ?(see Dan 4:35)
And we all know that Jesus spoke the truth, never in any way telling even a "white lie".(John 8:40) So how could Jesus be God and yet tell Nicodemus: "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son (or unique Son, Greek monogenes that means "only-born, i.e. sole"), so that everyone exercising faith might not be destroyed but have everlasting life" ?(John 3:16)
At Luke 7, the Greek word monogenes is used with regard to the widow of Nain whose "only-begotten son" was being carried out for burial.(Luke 7:12) This was her only son, so likewise Jesus is God's "only-begotten Son", the only one directly created by God. All other life came through Jesus as God's "master worker"".(Prov 8:30, Hebrew ’a·mohn meaning "skilled i.e. an architect")
Jesus could not say that he was the "only-begotten Son" if indeed he was God ! That would have been a lie ! How could he say that ' God gave his only-begotten Son ' if Jesus is God ? This would have meant that he gave himself, but that is not what Jesus said nor what the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus".(1 Tim 2:5)
This could not be any more plain, but despite all the evidence, many will still contend that Jesus is God, becoming like the Jewish religious leaders when Stephen gave a historical lesson starting with Abraham that led down to Jesus as the promised Messiah, with these Jewish religious leaders becoming infuriated and unreasonable and stoned him to death.(Acts 7:51-60)
I dont say anyone saying that, I think Stan calls those comments red herrings, though I never actually seeing a red herring. I gues you never figured it out. Jesus is Gods word, see Gods word was always with Him ever since the beginning, just like the day when I was born my voice was with me. I have a son whom sounds just like me, and when either of us answer the phone we are often asked , which of us is doing teh talking. And so it is with Jesus and God, Jesus was with God just as He said, Before Abraham was I AM. See He existed as Gods word since than, when He was born of Mary by the spirit , born of God not of Men, ie it was the Holy Spirit from God that planted the seed in Mary not the Sperm(seed) of Man, so He is divine but like us, walked in the flesh but unlike most christians, Led by the Spirti not teh flesh. Even the bible declares it.So its your contention that Jesus was just a man and not divine?
Yeshua` IS divine! He was the Word who was God before His incarnation, and He is the Son of God after His incarnation. BUT, there has to be a way to show that He is a DIFFERENT PERSON from His Father! They are not so "one" that you can't tell the difference between them! You can see it in His teaching,Yeshua` doing the talking (hence the red lettering):Dan57 said:So its your contention that Jesus was just a man and not divine? "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:33). Were the Jews wrong? "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us" (Matthew 1:23). "And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). If Thomas was wrong, why didn't Jesus correct him?
"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30)... "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" (John 14:9). "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6). Why did the prophet refer to the coming Savior as Mighty God and Everlasting Father?
If Jesus was just a mortal man, he wouldn't have the authority to save anyone, making Christianity nothing but a fluke.. If Christ was not one with God, then he's not the only begotten Son of God. As Islam claims, Jesus was just another prophet.
NO! Don't be duped by the rhetoric of the Catholic Church with that "eternal Sonship" nonsense! The Word BECAME the Son! (John 1:14, 32-34) There is no "pre-incarnate Jesus" He was not named "Jesus" until just before He was conceived!brakelite said:Jesus is, and always was, the only begotten Son of the Father. Not created, as were the angels, nor made from the dust, as are we, but begotten of the Father as His natural Son. In the pre-incarnate Jesus was all the fullness of the Godhead, which he inherited from His Father. That fullness He laid aside to become man.
God said to Moses of Christ..."Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared, Beware of Him, and obey His voice, do not provoke Him, for He will not prdon your transgressions, for My name is in Him." Exodus 23:21
This expression, 'my name is in him', to an ancient Hebrew would have meant He is an heir, a descendant, the one who will carry the Father's legacy. (Gen.48:16; Isa. 66:22; Deut. 25:6,7; 2Sam.14:7.) Of Christ Paul said, "being so much better than the angels, He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they". Heb.1:4
"For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace". Isa. 9:6
Throughout the NT Jesus and the Father are referenced separately...the Father referenced as God, Jesus referenced as His Son. Nowhere is Jesus referenced as God in the same sense as the Father. Yet as Son we understand His equality, because of what He as a Son has inherited from His Father. We may recognize Jesus as God because He was begotten in the express image of His Father, receiving all the attributes of deity just as my son received from me all the attributes of humanity.
"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself". John 5:26 "All power is given unto Me", Jesus said. The words Father and God are used interchangeably throughout scripture, there always being a sense of separateness between God and Son. We must always, I believe, honor the Father and Son equally, yet be cognizant of the fact that the Father is greater than the Son, for the simple reason He is the Father, and the source of all things, including all power, life, authority. And the time will come when Jesus once again, after delivering the kingdom back into the Father's hands, will be once again subordinate to the Father.
"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom every family in heaven and earth is named". Eph. 3:14,15.
"Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the Father of mercies and God of all comfort." 2Cor. 1:2,3
Please, do not mistake what I presented with any Catholic "eternal Sonship" tradition. John 3:16 tells us that God gave us His Son. In that He gave us His Son, I must accept that God had a Son to give. The pre-incarnate Son of God may not have been called Jesus, ( I believe Michael) but He was most assuredly there before creation, and was even then the SonRetrobyter said:Shabbat shalom, brakelite.
NO! Don't be duped by the rhetoric of the Catholic Church with that "eternal Sonship" nonsense! The Word BECAME the Son! (John 1:14, 32-34) There is no "pre-incarnate Jesus" He was not named "Jesus" until just before He was conceived!
Luke 1:30-35
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
KJV
Why would you say otherwise than to accomodate the theological position?
This is what happens when people wont take things to God.) but He was most assuredly there before creation, and was even then the Son
I did not say that the pre-incarnate Christ was a physical being...but He was a being. It was He who spoke to Moses upon Sinai...it was He who spoke with Abraham overlooking Sodom...it was He who walked in the garden with Adam and Eve...it was He who brought Israel out of Egypt and into the promised land...and it was He who laid aside His divinity, His omnipresence, His omniscience, (see Phil. 2:5-9)and became a helpless babe, born to a human mum thus forever now a part of the human race. Yes, I agree He and His Father are marvelous.mjrhealth said:This is what happens when people wont take things to God.
Jesus is Gods word come in teh flesh. What is Gods word.??
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. and a bit more from Jesus Himself
Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Gods word is Spirit,this bit
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
See Gods word was always with Him from teh very beginning, thats why Jesus could proclaim, Before Abraham was. I am. Because He was , He was still spirit, a part of God that when spoken creates. When Mary accepted what teh Angel spoke, Jesus was conceived just as the Angel had said, teh spirit of God has now created life, just as it says, in Marys womb, that Creation now the son of God, is called ,Yeshua, Jesus. He is just as teh bible says, Gods word come in the flesh, the spirirt of God in the flesh of a man. Only something God could ever do. isnt he marvelous.