Catholics

[BreadOfLife]

So that gives the church permission to worship the sun?

Who says the Church worships the sun??
Can you find that instruction in the Catechism??

Yeah - I didn't think so, Einstein . . .

 

[aspen]

I'm sorry, I haven't been in St. Martin of tours in over 40 years, but the Catholics there commonly prayed to Patron saints and I observed more than one kneeling to a statue. They even had knee rests in front of the statues so you could pray to them. Up until shortly before I was born the RCC had masses to honor St. Michael. My mom was in the rosary society as well as something she didn't speak about, but she only prayed to saints because she reasoned that God was too busy and needed help (it's how she justified church practice.) My mom was a bit ditsy, but she wasn't stupid and the RCC kept her from experiencing the Lord first hand, by feeding her error and foolishness. Did you ever listen to a priest try to explain the trinity to a child? Hint: it's not like a clover leaf. People sometimes say that ignorance is bliss, but the Lord says that "My people die for lack of knowledge," and he's not talking about math and science .

Several issues are in play here: Vatican I, teachings/misuse of statues, rosaries; however, you've mentioned nothing related to worship. As far as Vatican I is concerned - it is very likely that I would have never joined the Catholic Church before 1965 because I believe the church placed too much power in the hands of the clergy. People who worship statues are engaged in superstitious, pagan practices. People who pray in front of a statue and ask a Saint to pray for them/with them are Catholic/Coptic/Orthodox/Anglican. The difference between asking for prayer and worshipping has been explained at nausium, all over this board so I am not going to repeat it; it is safe to say that Catholics and Protestants disagree on this topic. A frustration for me, is when people from other groups insist that I am practicing my own beliefs incorrectly - it is disrespectful and reminds me of the reframing that occurs in extreme politics.

Once again, people have a tendency to be superstitious, regardless of creed.

 

[pia]

This is rather unchristian use of speech and I would suggest that you step back when getting frustrated rather than sin. RCC apologists are often trained in didactics and dogma and just wont admit fallacious reasoning and illogic. I don't know the point of these threads beyond increasing the breach between the institutionalized church and the body of christ. The RCC is not the enemy, the Episcopal church is not the enemy, the Baptist church is not the enemy, our enemies are not flesh and blood (Ephesians 6:12).

Hello 'michaelpardo'.......How lovely to read your response to this. Wouldn't it really be something when the time comes when we will all get it into our 'thick' heads ( lol) that to fight each other, is in exact opposition to His will and profits nothing. Well answered !..........Peace In Him.......Pia

 

[pia]

Hi Pia,

Fascinating testimony.

You asked me: How do I partake of Him? I partake of Him in the bread and wine, just like He said to do. How do you partake of Him Pia?

The Apostles (scripture) CLEARLY set up a hierarchal Church and the earliest writings we have from Christianity CLEARLY follows scripture by establishing a hierarchal Church. In 2 Timothy it says "what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also". There were no, as you like to believe, "different stages of development" when it came to choosing Church leadership. Peter and Jesus taught Paul. Paul taught Timothy and he told Timothy to entrust that teaching to other men. Those men would then go on to teach other men etc. etc. When the Apostles replaced Judas with Mathias it is HIGHLY unlikely that he lacked the knowledge of Jesus teachings. I HIGHLY doubt he was in the 'early stages of development'. Church leaders are CHOSEN by other Church Leaders. Just like scripture says. You are right. We all have different talents and gifts. Some have the gift of leadership and they are ASSIGNED that position. Just like scripture says.

You asked me: Why do I believe that I need more intercessors than Him? I never said that. Unless you THINK that a leader of a Church is an intercessor? How do you define intercessor?

Furthermore, based on your non-biblical theory, if everyone is in a different stage of development in learning scripture does that not mean there needs to be a teacher? Does that mean that the person reading scripture for 60 years is right and the person only reading it for 5 years is more than likely wrong? That would be weird since they both have the Holy Spirit guiding them. Shouldn't they both be right?

Furthermore, prior to the printing press in 1439, the average person did not have a bible in hand to read and most people were illiterate. How did they learn scripture for the first 1500 years of Christianity? Church leaders?

Your belief that there is no hierarchy in a Christian Church is opposite of what Scripture says and opposite of 2,000 years of Christian practice.

Your belief system allows me to interpret scripture my way and you interpret it your way with both of us thinking we are guided by the Holy Spirit. You have your truth, I have mine. That means the Holy Spirit is confused because He told you one thing is true and he told me the opposite is true. Do you think the Holy Spirit is confused Pia?

Thank you for your testimony.

Love....Mary

Hello again Mary........I too at times when together with other believers partake of bread and wine as He said to do, did it a whole lot with my kids and grand child also, but daily just having Him and His glorious presence ( even if I can't always see Him or feel Him ) IS my bread and my wine...He fills me to such an extent that I feel so 'full' so utterly satisfied, like after you just had the best meal, that I barely need physical food at times. This has come about as He has taught me of Himself, our Father, the Holy spirit and how to listen and learn from Him and Him alone ( The Father, Jesus and The Holy spirit are one in all things ). You can believe anyway you choose, that is your God given right, but if you want to taste the victory He died to give us, while you are still here on earth, it will take the leadership of The Holy spirit / Jesus and your Father. There would have NEVER been any division nor misunderstandings or misinterpretations if EVERY believer had done as The Lord said , and let themselves be taught and guided by His Word and the Holy spirit, and as He says:" My Word, they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE." If the written down words in the Bible were that, every single person who read them would receive LIFE from them, and that it once again clearly not the case within all those who profess to believe in Him. I am not on this forum to argue with anyone or to tell you what to believe, merely to share what He has shown me so far as it brings so much life, joy, peace, strength and courage into my left. Sure I have bad days and even bad times, where I can't seem to make the connection, but as I always find out; That is when He is carrying me, rather than being by my side or facing me.
Anyway sweet sister, have a blessed day in Him, I have a very busy one so will have to go soon.........pia

 

[pia]

actually it is He said there is only one way

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

or would you deny God when He says
This is my beloved Son: hear him.

or this bit

Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I gues you dont want to follow Him, thats ok thats between you and Him..

Hi mjrhealth'........Bulls eye!.....Concise, correct and Truth. Thank you !
Be blessed always Pia

 

[pia]

Sorry - but Jesus wasn't talking about the leadership of His Church here. He was rebuking the Apostles because they were arguing about which one of them would be considered the "greatest".

As for who would be the greatest - he must serve the others. That's why the official title of the Pope is "The servant of the servants of God".
Jesus clearly appointed Peter as the leader in Matt. 16:18-19, Luke 22:31-32 and John 21:15-19.

This is complete nonsense.

Why is it "wrong" to delegate smaller matters where there are more pressing matters?? Peter was just ONE man and could only do so much. Do YOU do everything at home and at work?? Do you run the entire company? Do you run every ministry in your church??

Then, why would you put that ridiculous expectation on Peter?
Everybody in the Body must do their share and not leave it to ONE person.


First of all - Peter was wrong when he wouldn't eat with Gentiles. Paul ALSO admitted to sinning (1 Tim. 1:15). John also told his readers that he was a sinner (1 John 1:8). - so what's your point?? That a leader of the Church cannot sin?? We're ALL sinners - including YOU.

As for your misinterpretation of Jesus calling Peter a "pebble" or "small" rock - this is a common mistake.
Jesus didn't call Peter a "pebble" - He called him "ROCK".

The Lord said to Peter: “And so I say to you, you are Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (Petra) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

YOU say that He called him a pebble or small rock because the word "Petros" is used instead of "Petra", which means large rock. You believe that Jesus is the Rock here because he is referred to as Rock elsewhere, including, Matt. 21:42 and 1 Pet. 2:3-8. The problem with this is that Jesus didn’t speak Greek to his Apostles - he spoke Aramaic.

What Jesus actually said was: “And so I say to you, you are Kepha, and upon this rock Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”
This is why St. Peter is referred to as Cephas in many of St. Paul’s letters, because Cephas is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic, Kepha.

There is another problem for you here: Petra is a feminine Greek noun and would NOT be used to describe a man, so the word was translated as Petros in Scripture because it was being used in reference to a man. Jesus clearly appointed St. Peter as earthly head of the Church and Chief Apostle here in Matthew’s Gospel as well as Luke 22:31-32, where he told Peter that he prayed for him alone to strengthen the other Apostles in his absence and in John 21:15-19, where he told Peter 3 times to feed his sheep.

By the way - Abraham is ALSO referred to as the "Rock" (Kepha) (Isaiah 51:1-2).

Bread of life............You can believe and speak as you wish, it's your God given right. However, one day we will all give account of ourselves, and on that day it is ONLY between us and Him, we cannot bring anyone else into the our account as reasons for doing or not doing certain things, and one thing I WILL not be doing, is to do anything which can make one of His little ones to stumble or to walk away from HIM as indeed a pastor tried to do to me once. Good luck ! Pia

 

[pia]

That's an insult to every saint that came out of the RCC. No saint was ever a good person, because the Lord tells us that there is no one good but God alone. The rest of us are just varying degrees of evil, children of wrath until Christ rescues us from destruction and eternal separation from God. If there were no presence of the Ruach Ha Kodesh in the church no one would get saved, yet some still do despite such poor and corrupted teaching. The Lord creates faith in hearts wherever his word is read publicly, His word never returns to Him void, and the last I heard the masses still have scripture reading included, even if it's rarely exegeted.

Hi Micheal........So well put ! And yes: Of course He is even in corrupted places, He can, after what he accomplished on the cross and immediately after. He can go to absolutely anywhere where a 'heart' is calling out to Him, there is only one thing He told me and showed me a few different ways, that He cannot do / or cannot stand with, and that is this ....He cannot stand WITH a person in opposition to Him and He cannot BE with a person, who outright disbelieves or rejects Him, as He would then have to be in opposition to Himself and stand rejecting Himself, and clearly He cannot disbelieve in Himself... He makes me laugh a lot, because honestly, it's embarrassing in a way to me, how I can complicate some things, and once He explains it, I realize, that even a 10 year old would completely understand it. He has NEVER made me feel bad, I do that all by myself. I just have to hold on to Him for dear life at all times and when I don't understand something, I will ask and wait for the answer, too easy ! So nice to have met you here.........Blessings and Peace in and through Him..............Pia

 

[ScottA]

Wrong.

In Luke 10, Jesus sends out the "72" - advising them in verse 16 that if they are rejected - HE is rejected.
By the way, the 2nd century historian Hippolytus of Rome lists these men as being among first Bishops of the Church. Ananias, who baptized Paul in Acts 9 was one of these "72".

As for YOUR rejection of His Church - that's between you and God.
The Church that YOU reject is where YOU got your canon of Scripture because it was led by the Holy Spirit to declare the canon (John 16:12-15). Do you really think that God would guide a pagan sect to declare the Canon of His Word??

Study your Bible - then study your history . . .

You taking the credit for your misguided beliefs, doesn't make it right or correct. The scriptures may be touched and even penned by men, but their only qualification is that God saw fit to use them in spite of themselves. The scriptures and how they are passed down from generation to generation is the providence of God and not of men.

So, it is the arrogance of men that I reject, and not the scriptures. Nor do I hate the men as you seem to have a need to assert. But I do know when a man claims what is not his. That man is not of God.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well - you finally got something right . . .

Yes keep trying one day you will too.

 

[mjrhealth]

No - Jesus isn't a liar and doesn't approve of the either.

"Innocent", indeed . . .

So now you are calling Him a liar??? well one should know... you are very conversant at it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Bread of life............You can believe and speak as you wish, it's your God given right. However, one day we will all give account of ourselves, and on that day it is ONLY between us and Him, we cannot bring anyone else into the our account as reasons for doing or not doing certain things, and one thing I WILL not be doing, is to do anything which can make one of His little ones to stumble or to walk away from HIM as indeed a pastor tried to do to me once. Good luck ! Pia

I really don't know what this has to do with my post - but que sera, sera . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

So now you are calling Him a liar??? well one should know... you are very conversant at it.

You can't be that dense mjr.
R*E*A*D my last post:
"No - Jesus isn't a liar and doesn't approve of the either."

In other words - He doesn't approve of YOUR lies.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You taking the credit for your misguided beliefs, doesn't make it right or correct. The scriptures may be touched and even penned by men, but their only qualification is that God saw fit to use them in spite of themselves. The scriptures and how they are passed down from generation to generation is the providence of God and not of men.

So, it is the arrogance of men that I reject, and not the scriptures. Nor do I hate the men as you seem to have a need to assert. But I do know when a man claims what is not his. That man is not of God.

And God used His mouthpiece on earth to declare the Canon - His Church.
Can YOU explain to me how the canon of Scripture YOU follow was originally compiled and declared by a "pagan and satanic" cult?

You can't because the Word of God would not be left to a satanic cult.
It could ONLY be declared by His Church . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hey - since you have appointed yourself an "expert" on Catholicism - can YOU tell me what a "Roman" Catholic is?
Also - define what "RCC" is.

I guarantee you'll get BOTH wrong . . .

Hey peanut - STILL waiting for an answer.
I can't wait to hear your response . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

If you think you're standing up for the actual Roman Catholics here you're very mistaken in those two instances where you demonstrate great ignorance of their faith.
Your observation concerning saints in the church for instance. No saint was ever a good person. It's interesting that you'd make that statement when actual Roman Catholics pray to dead people called saints. By authority of the Pope who decreed they are that. Catholics pray to what are dead people. That's necromancy. And they ask them to give them a boon acting as emissaries on their behalf to God their Father.
Why can't they just ask God?
Because they're trained to pray to Saints.

Maybe learn something about the RCC faith before trying to defend it here. Because thus far, you're not very good at faking what you clearly do not know to those who do know about the Roman Catholic faith.

STILL waiting to read your response about the definition of:
"RCC"
"Roman Catholic"

Now - I want you to define "Necromancy", since you accuse Catholics of committing this grievous sin.
While you're at it - can you show me ONE verse of Scripture that says those in the presence of Almighty God in Heaven are "Dead"??

Do you even believe in ETERNAL life for those in Christ?? How can they be "Dead" if Scripture shows them worshiping God in Heaven (Rev. 4:9-11)??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Who says the Church worships the sun??
Can you find that instruction in the Catechism??

Yeah - I didn't think so, Einstein . . .

Hey Job -
STILL waiting to read your evidence showing that the Catechism teaches "Sun "Worship."

Can't find it??
That's what I thought . . .

 

[ScottA]

And God used His mouthpiece on earth to declare the Canon - His Church.
Can YOU explain to me how the canon of Scripture YOU follow was originally compiled and declared by a "pagan and satanic" cult?

You can't because the Word of God would not be left to a satanic cult.
It could ONLY be declared by His Church . . .

You assume I have no answer and that you are right, but you error. God can and does use donkeys and event stones to declare Himself and his will. But woe to you for calling what He has raised up by His providence, satanic.

 

[bbyrd009]

The scriptures and how they are passed down from generation to generation is the providence of God and not of men.

i'm not sure how tenable that position is; after all the Bible even tells us that scribes corrupt Scripture.

 

[ScottA]

i'm not sure how tenable that position is; after all the Bible even tells us that scribes corrupt Scripture.

We have God's promise that his word shall not return void. Moreover, what man can insure his own error will go on forever? None. Only God has that ability, but his word is not error, and so the truth prevails regardless of men - He alone has providence.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You assume I have no answer and that you are right, but you error. God can and does use donkeys and event stones to declare Himself and his will. But woe to you for calling what He has raised up by His providence, satanic.

God would never leave the decision of what is deemed as "inspired Scripture" up to Satan.
NOWHERE is the a Biblical precedent for this.

He works His will though any means He wishes - but He has NEVER left the fate of His Holy Word up to Satan - so your charge that the Catholic Church is a "satanic" or "pagan" cult is DEAD wrong and indefensible.