WHAT Is the Trinity?

[amadeus]

Great point. this is just what i was point out earlier concering John 1:1. the beginning in John 1:1 was God in flesh, and not in existence, for he always existed, jut only when he came in flesh this was a beginning in flesh only, or the manifestation of himself in flesh. not a beginning in existence. good point. just like the Hebrews question, Hebrews 1:3a "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person". many try to use the copy angel, "Express" image. for a copy is not the original.

But although Jesus did pre-exist the birth of the baby in Bethlehem to Mary, did he not also have a beginning prior to that carnal birth?

"I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:" Prov 8:23-25

So then was not the one brought forth Jesus and the One bringing him forth was God [Father]?

And then consider also this one:

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" Rev 3:14

Which may mean that Jesus was God's very first creation. God created or beget God as per the previously quoted verse to that effect...?

I am really sorry to expressing ideas that might be wrong, but they might right. Again comes the question, since there seems to be differences among believers, is it really necessary for us to know the "correct" answer? Perhaps using human words there is no correct answer.

 

[101G]

They would also have to explain why not even "he who sat on the throne" could open the book of the seven seals. Nothing in existence could open it, and it had John crying like a little girl until the "Lamb that had been slain" walked in and opened it. Yet again, its two different entities being described.

while they are getting ready to answer, I'll address your "who sits on the throne question". I have a question. if the one as you say is the Father sitting on the throne, "question who gave the almighty Father POWER", here's why I ask this, Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created". if it's the Father who is sitting on the throne and "RECEIVE" power, I WANT TO KNOW THE NAME OF THE PERSON WHO GAVE IT TO HIM. reason, if he's the almighty, who gave him power, don't he have it all?, that's what almighty means... right. so book chapter and verse please of who gave the Father POWER.

 

[101G]

But although Jesus did pre-exist the birth of the baby in Bethlehem to Mary, did he not also have a beginning prior to that carnal birth?

NO, and here's why,

"I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:" Prov 8:23-25

is not the Lord Jesus the Wisdom of, of, of, of, GOD?, let's see. 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
God's wisdom was brought forth, meaning to give understanding as to what he did in creation. the wisdom of god who is God gives understanding. Genesis 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light". light is "UNDERSTANDING". and the Wisdom of God is LIGHT, John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life". 2 Corinthians 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ".

 

[101G]

So then was not the one brought forth Jesus and the One bringing him forth was God [Father]?

Error. one cannot bring forth nothing, it have to be already there.

 

[amadeus]

They would also have to explain why not even "he who sat on the throne" could open the book of the seven seals. Nothing in existence could open it, and it had John crying like a little girl until the "Lamb that had been slain" walked in and opened it. Yet again, its two different entities being described.

Sitting on the throne would be God [Father] himself. He could not open the Book, because He had limited himself by His own Word when He gave men rule over themselves. Men however had blocked themselves out. They could not get into the garden past the flaming sword and partake of the right Tree, The Tree of Life. Jesus was to make a Way where there was no way.

It had to be a man and no man born of woman was worthy except the one special man sent for that purpose. The opening required a sacrifice, and all of the sacrifices were tainted by their sins, until Jesus was born and accomplished what no other had or could accomplish. He had to overcome sin and the ways of sin in himself. He did that before He went to cross:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Then having overcome he then qualified to make himself the sacrifice to open the Way for others: you and me.
Notice that after saying that he had overcome the world, he then said [also prior to Calvary] this:

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11

He was still walking and talking on planet Earth, but He was NO LONGER IN THE WORLD! The world was as described by John here:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

John is also not talking about planet Earth when he uses the word, "world". The "lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" are in the little lump dirt called man, each one of us... until we have also overcome our own little world. Jesus did it and then went to the cross so that we could also do it.

Give God the glory!

 

[101G]

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"

the beginning of the creation of God?. scripture, Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence". just look up preeminence.

don't worry about right or wrong, just get the truth, and thanks for the questions.

 

[amadeus]

NO, and here's why,

is not the Lord Jesus the Wisdom of, of, of, of, GOD?, let's see. 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
God's wisdom was brought forth, meaning to give understanding as to what he did in creation. the wisdom of god who is God gives understanding. Genesis 1:3 "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light". light is "UNDERSTANDING". and the Wisdom of God is LIGHT, John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life". 2 Corinthians 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ".

I really don't follow how you arrived at your conclusion.

I see and agree that wisdom was brought forth from God, but this doesn't mean Jesus existed before that. Not if Jesus was previous a part of God as the Word was a part of the Father and was brought forth... Before that there was no Jesus. God gave of Himself so that there would be a Son so that some man would be able do what no other man could do.

 

[amadeus]

Error. one cannot bring forth nothing, it have to be already there.

Something was already there: God

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7

This was how it was with the first man Adam, but that man corrupted himself and his death was the result. All of his descendants were dead to God so not one of them was able to open the way into his own heart for God to qualify as an unblemished sacrifice.

God had the plan in place always. A new uncorrupted man came forth from God via Mary. God breathed the breath of Life into Jesus so that some man would be able to overcome his own temptations [Jesus never ate of the forbidden fruit] first and then he was able to be the uncorrupted sacrifice required to re-open to the Way to the Tree of Life.

 

[101G]

Anyone with a basic reading comprehension can see its describing three different entities. There is the Father who sits on the throne, the seven spirits which comprise the Holy Ghost, and the son Jesus Christ AKA "the word of God" who will be right beside him.

not to put anyone down, ok. but basic reading comprehension is not enough when nreading the bible. one needs revelation knowledge to understand, and to get that knowledge one needs the revelator who open the minds of men to the truth. now to the question at hand.

We asked, if this was true.
1. first person, "which is, and which was, and which is to come". the one called Father?.
2. second person, "the seven Spirits". the one called the Holy Spirit?.
3. third person, "Jesus Christ". a no brainier, the Son?

Let the bible speak for it self. follow the color for easy consumption.
Revelation 1:9 -11 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea”.
Here the Lord Jesus in his glorified body, (yes, the Lord Jesus the first and the Last, see rev 1:17). states that he is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last”

Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
who is this? Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty". So the Alpha and Omega, who is the First and the Last is the which is, and which was, and which is to come. SAME PERSON, your trinity is already in trouble, it just lost one of it's member. The Lord Jesus is the first and the Last, (Rev 1:17), meaning that he is the which is, and which was, and which is to come (Rev 1:8). two down and one to go. now what about the Spirit. the seven Spirits”, is it the one who have the seven stares in his hand, Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead”. question, who have the seven Stars?, answer, Revelation 1:16 "And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength”. now who is this?, answer, back up to verse 11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last". JESUS the Christ.

But to my friend GG, let me give you some quick inside information for your edification. In all the letters to the churches, chapter 2 & 3, it’s the Lord Jesus speaking to the churches right. But notice how all of the letter end, listen, “.He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”. WAIT, hear what the Spirit say? I thought it was the Lord Jesus who was speaking to the churches…. (smile) it is, he’s the Spirit speaking, and God, as you eloquent stated, and confirmed in the scriptures, God is a Spirit, (see John 4:24a). Glory to God the Lord Jesus is God almighty, Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. the which is, and which was, and which is to come. and the Spirit, the seven Spirits.

so, basic reading comprehension is not that good when it comes to the bible. remember this is no put down, but edification.

 

[amadeus]

the beginning of the creation of God?. scripture, Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence". just look up preeminence.

don't worry about right or wrong, just get the truth, and thanks for the questions.

When Jesus overcame the temptations of his own little world contained in his flesh, he had was then complete in that he had overcome all the temptations of a man. In those temptations was the death of men. They were dead because Life was lost when Adam and Eve followed the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life... instead of obeying God. Jesus was first born from the dead according the verse I already quoted:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

This again as I said was before he went to cross. He went to the cross for you and me to have the opportunity to also be born from the dead. He was the firstborn, but He made it possible for others to follow.

 

[101G]

I see and agree that wisdom was brought forth from God, but this doesn't mean Jesus existed before that

let me give you a scripture to give you understanding. see before our Lord came in flesh he is Spirit, listen to the record, 1 Peter 1:10 & 11 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow". see Christ before his incarnation is Spirit, and you know it's only ONE SPIRIT and that JESUS.

 

[101G]

He was the firstborn

not natural first born. not carnal. maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly. I want you study what "first" born means and begotten. here is a good article to help you out, but you can google "firstborn" and it's meaning in the bible. but the article link What is the significance of “firstborn” in the Bible?. understand I'm not in agreement with what they states, but it give a good understanding on first born. iif it still not clear, just goggle some more, but get the meat of the matter.

 

[Dcopymope]

while they are getting ready to answer, I'll address your "who sits on the throne question". I have a question. if the one as you say is the Father sitting on the throne, "question who gave the almighty Father POWER", here's why I ask this, Revelation 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created". if it's the Father who is sitting on the throne and "RECEIVE" power, I WANT TO KNOW THE NAME OF THE PERSON WHO GAVE IT TO HIM. reason, if he's the almighty, who gave him power, don't he have it all?, that's what almighty means... right. so book chapter and verse please of who gave the Father POWER.

I think a better question would be WHAT power is actually being given to him in particular. After all, we all know that scripture states that "the earth is the Lords and the fullness thereof, along with its inhabitants". The creation, him being the creator, already belonged to him. But both in the old and new testament is the prophecy of a different kind of power being given to him, which is that over the nations of the earth among other things.

(Isaiah 9:6) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

If Jesus really is one with his Father, then that means the Father, the one that sits on the throne, is also being given power over the nations of the earth. He is the word which was God from the start is he not? If he is, then that makes him the Father in essence, because it is the Father from which he came, the only begotten of the Father, yet clearly described as separate. A tri-unity is clearly being described. This isn't too hard for me to understand. Also, Jesus will have his own throne, as we all know he has stated he will be SITTING right next to the Father.

The throne of God and the Lamb:

(Revelation 22:1-5) "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. {2} In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. {3} And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: {4} And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. {5} And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

 

[101G]

now for any other who don't think that the Lord Jesus is not God "Diversified" in flesh study Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". this is a good start, or a good step in understanding who the Lord Jesus really is. now for edification, I believe that the ONLY TRUE GOD IN THE GODHEAD IS THE ONE WHO IS HOLY AND SPIRIT, yes the "HOLY SPIRIT", who name is the LORD JESUS, . whom some puts last the Godhead, but is the only one in the Godhead.
be blessed.

 

[101G]

I think a better question would be WHAT power is actually being given to him in particular.

I don't need to go any further with that statement. the mere fact that the one who have all power is given power, no, that want fly, for then he would not be "ALMIGHTY", so no, want even entertain that idea.. but to tingle your curiosity, in chapter 5 of Revelation, THE ONE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE IS THE SAME ONE WHO STANDS THAT WAS RESURRECTED....... (Smile). but "diversity" can answer that question.

be blessed.

 

[Dcopymope]

I don't need to go any further with that statement. the mere fact that the one who have all power is given power, no, that want fly, for then he would not be "ALMIGHTY", so no, want even entertain that idea.. but to tingle your curiosity, in chapter 5 of Revelation, THE ONE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE IS THE SAME ONE WHO STANDS THAT WAS RESURRECTED....... (Smile). but "diversity" can answer that question.

be blessed.

I fail to see how your description of God's 'diversity' differs from my explanation of his tri-unity. I already answered that in spades. If you want to believe that God Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost is already ruling the nations with a rod of iron...well its not supported by scripture. If he has dominion over the nations already, then he is doing a piss poor job of it. Its time to set up an election process.

 

[101G]

I fail to see how your description of God's 'diversity' differs from my explanation of his tri-unity.

here is the MAIN difference. your trinity is three separate "PERSONS", God is not divided. the diversity of God is only one PERSON EQUALLY "SHARED" in flesh. the difference is separation/division vs Sharing of oneself. by being the equal share you have only one PERSON who is numerically different of the SAME sort or nature. and the Greek word that identify this sharing is G243 allos. let me give you vines definitions so that you may study it. there are two Greek words for our English word "Another", G243 and G2087 ,allos heteros. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort;" heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another" of a different sort."

I suggest you look up what a numerical difference means, and look up "Sort" this should get you started.

 

[amadeus]

not natural first born. not carnal. maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly. I want you study what "first" born means and begotten. here is a good article to help you out, but you can google "firstborn" and it's meaning in the bible. but the article link What is the significance of “firstborn” in the Bible?. understand I'm not in agreement with what they states, but it give a good understanding on first born. iif it still not clear, just goggle some more, but get the meat of the matter.

We really do not seem to be communicating my friend. I glad that you "want" me to study, but from study the answers do not come, but from the eating his flesh and drinking his blood:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." John 6:53-56


"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

 

[Dcopymope]

here is the MAIN difference. your trinity is three separate "PERSONS", God is not divided. the diversity of God is only one PERSON EQUALLY "SHARED" in flesh. the difference is separation/division vs Sharing of oneself. by being the equal share you have only one PERSON who is numerically different of the SAME sort or nature. and the Greek word that identify this sharing is G243 allos. let me give you vines definitions so that you may study it. there are two Greek words for our English word "Another", G243 and G2087 ,allos heteros. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort;" heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another" of a different sort."

I suggest you look up what a numerical difference means, and look up "Sort" this should get you started.

M'kay, and I have no problem with this explanation at all. I don't need Greek words to tell me what I already know. I don't speak Greek, I speak English. Jesus Christ is God the Father diversified in the flesh as the word, who always was God and WITH him. With him, meaning still numerically separate, he always has been, and this will not change with the second coming. He was raised up by the Father, and will sit at has right hand as the Lamb spoken of in Revelation. He will have his own throne, but he will sit not on THE throne.

(Acts 2:32-35) "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. {33} Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. {34} For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, {35} Until I make thy foes thy footstool."

 

[101G]

We really do not seem to be communicating my friend. I glad that you "want" me to study, but from study the answers do not come, but from the eating his flesh and drinking his blood:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." John 6:53-56


"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

this is the way it is in any bible study. one must not give up. ask and it shall be given, knock, and the door open, seek and you find. look I din't get this over night, the Lord took time and revealed it to me. I was hungry for the truth, and after many fast food dinners, I wanted no more. the bible is not a burger king, can't have it your way. but wait on the real king. when you ask, ask in faith, for he is faithful and just. enough of that.

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life" Metaphor. what do this mean?, John 6:55 "For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed". let the scripture speak, 1 Corinthians 3:2 "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able". what do the man of God feed with? answer, Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding". supportive scripture, Hebrews 5:12-14 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil".

hope this help,
just remember, our Lord uses Metaphor sometime to get his message across.

Now. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26"
if you don't mind, I would like to post the answer in another post, just for lenght. don't worry I'll be brief as possible, trust me.... (smile).
be blessed.