WHAT Is the Trinity?

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amadeus

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this is the way it is in any bible study. one must not give up. ask and it shall be given, knock, and the door open, seek and you find. look I din't get this over night, the Lord took time and revealed it to me. I was hungry for the truth, and after many fast food dinners, I wanted no more. the bible is not a burger king, can't have it your way. but wait on the real king. when you ask, ask in faith, for he is faithful and just. enough of that.

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life" Metaphor. what do this mean?, John 6:55 "For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed". let the scripture speak, 1 Corinthians 3:2 "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able". what do the man of God feed with? answer, Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding". supportive scripture, Hebrews 5:12-14 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil".

hope this help,
just remember, our Lord uses Metaphor sometime to get his message across.

Now. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26"
if you don't mind, I would like to post the answer in another post, just for lenght. don't worry I'll be brief as possible, trust me.... (smile).
be blessed.
Thank you for your efforts, but we are still not really communicating.
Give God the glory!

By the way, This thread is supposed to be on the trinity.
 

101G

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"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
THE COMFORTER is the the Lord Jesus Glorified with the Spirit, the seven Spirit as stated in Revelation. but let's get straight to the heart of the matter. scripture, John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever" there's that Greek word "another" G243 allos. now, what so interesting is this. John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you". ok, so when did the Lord Jesus come to them? let the scriptures answer. John 14:16 & 17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you". Judas asked the perfect question, listen. John 14:22 "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?". GREAT, good question. Judas asked "How, How, wilt thou manifest thyself". remember the Lord Jesus said in verse 18, "I will come to you". here's how and when, he came on the day of Pentecost in the MANIFESTATION of the Spiritual Gifts, scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal". that's how he came, IN "SPIRIT". and we have the list there . and if one keep on reading one will see the list and what gift was used on Pentecost. notice verse 10, 1 Corinthians 12:10 "To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues" understand, the world did not see this coming, but only his MANIFESTATION, as Judas asked about. but when he come in "appearance" in Glorified flesh and bone, every eye will see him then scripture, Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen". understand my friend, the Lord Jesus return is twofold. what do I mean? first in Spirit, unseen, on the day of Pentecost, and his second return, or his appearance soon to be, in Glorified flesh and bone, the eternal one (rev 1:7). this second "appearance", supportive scripture, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation". see, the first time on Pentecost no one saw him, he MANIFESTED himself in the spiritual gifts. but this next appearing "EVERY" eye will see him.

I hope this helped.

if not, we can pick this up tomorrow, getting late here.
 

101G

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Thank you for your efforts, but we are still not really communicating.
Give God the glory!

By the way, This thread is supposed to be on the trinity.
but A, there is no trinity.

be blessed see you tommorrow.
 

amadeus

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but A, there is no trinity.

be blessed see you tommorrow.
I am blessed, but I won't be around much tomorrow until late as I have a fellowship meeting to attend out of town.
 

GodsGrace

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God begets the perfect body of Christ.
Isn't our Lord imageless? Then is Jesus body and face not the image of God.
Jesus' body and face is the image of God in the sense that Jesus is God and we have some perception of what Jesus looked like.

However, Jesus is not God Father. God Father is spirit. We have no idea what God Father looks like.
The OT tells us that no one has seen the Father.
Sorry. No Bible here.
I'm sure you know this.

Is that what you meant?
 

breathofdesire

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Jesus' body and face is the image of God in the sense that Jesus is God and we have some perception of what Jesus looked like.

However, Jesus is not God Father. God Father is spirit. We have no idea what God Father looks like.
The OT tells us that no one has seen the Father.
Sorry. No Bible here.
I'm sure you know this.

Is that what you meant?
I am saying that God is not big on idolatry, and people making images of him. I figure his physical body and face (As the Christ) is in no way an image of God. Because he's spirit, and I don't think God has has an image.
 

GodsGrace

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Looking only at your first numbered question. Why is it necessary to believe something not clearly spelled out in scripture or in our heart? I see the possibilities and the support for a belief in a trinity, or not, in scripture. I have yet to hear anyone provide a good answer to your question number 1. You just have to believe because...

I have for many years supported the latter, but I started with the former [trinitarian] without the use of scripture.

When I attended elementary school in very small mission town in California I attended catechism weekly during "religious release" time from public schools. I remember the nun showing us a large picture of a three leaf clover and using it to explain that there were three persons in the One God: the Father, the Son [Jesus] and the Holy Ghost. No scriptures were read at the time. I always loved and respected the nuns who taught as well as the two primary priests who said masses in that first RCC mission [San Juan Bautista]. As a devout altar boy I believed their words were effectively "gospel" although I wouldn't have used that expression at the time. I believed in my teachers and what they taught without any doubts. I only wanted to learn more. My plans were to become a priest so that I could read the Bible. Reading of the Bible was discouraged in that church so I never did read it. I only knew of scripture the few verses that the priests read in English for their sermons. The major part of the mass itself was conducted in Latin.

My next thoughts on what people call the "godhead" occurred in 1976 when I was drawn into the UPC [United Pentecostal Church] the largest Oneness Jesus Only organization. The man who along with his wife brought into God with their witness [not merely with words, but with lives lived] was a Bible man. He knew and loved the Bible and taught me many things that no other minister or pastor or preacher anywhere before had been able to do. Primarily, however, he had charity and lived charity. From him more than any other person I learned the Oneness Jesus Only doctrine.
This is stated simply in a song we used to sing when we were among them:

"Jesus is the name of the Father, Jesus is the name of the Son, Jesus is the name of the Holy Ghost and all these three are one"

My first pastor in the UPC said more than once that his "sugar daddy" verse was this one:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

He was not the only one. As I recall most of the ministers and preachers I heard among those people frequently references that verse, especially when visitors were present. They wanted all the trinitarians to be converted to oneness.

After 11 years in oneness God sent me looking for something else. I could not find it, but it, or God, found me.
Hi Amadeus,
I pretty much had your experience.
BUT, why would those nice nuns lie to us??
I don't believe they did.

I'd love to understand the ONENESS doctrine better.

Regarding your statement which I highlighted, it is easy enough to understand.

To baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is a FORM of baptism. Jesus commanded this in Mathew 28:19 so it must be correct. He did not make mistakes.

Acts 2:38 is instead telling us about a TYPE of baptism.
John baptized for the repentence of sins and was preparing the way for Jesus who preached repentence and the turning to God and living in His Kingdom.

So Peter says to repent and be baptized in the NAME OF JESUS.
This means with fire and the Holy Spirit.
Acts 1:8
For the power to witness to even the remotest part of the earth.
 

GodsGrace

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I am not a stickler for people believing the Trinity. I consider the early church and even the apostles learned of the nature of God though they didn't put a name to it.

They all started by believing there is one God in heaven. I'm sure they thought the cloud over the Arc in the temple was the same God. Then through personal revelation they learned Jesus is God with us. In Acts 5:3-4 Peter seems to grasp the Holy Spirit's deity well.

So they knew the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God. Later the church was like... let's give that relationship a name, and call it the Trinity.

There is also the oneness doctrine that doesn't deny the diety of these 'persons' of the Godhead. Though I assume the oneness pentecostals wouldn't call them persons. Six of one half a dozen of the other.

What's important IMO is the original simplistic understanding the church father's had. You must believe Jesus is THE Lord, and not a mere human lord. You must also receive the Holy Spirit and respect him as Holy.

Many cults deny the diety of Jesus Christ. They also deny the indwelling Holy Spirit. That should open your eyes to the tactics of the enemy who wants to destroy you. If they can keep the presence of God from you (The Holy Spirit) you are not marked as God's among other serious implications, such as being unable to pray in the Spirit and remaining spiritually dead. If Jesus is not God, that is a different Jesus.
Agreed.
We sometimes speak of different Jesus when speaking about doctrine. Doctrine that may be incorrect does NOT change the person of Jesus. What you have stated above DOES.

Jesus must be God or the Christian faith does not really exist.
If Jesus is not God, not only is He a different Jesus, but everything we've been told about Him might very well be a lie.
 

bbyrd009

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Jesus must be God or the Christian faith does not really exist.
the problem perhaps then becomes not those who seek a better understanding of Christ, but those who would use that as a starting point for excluding anyone God might accept simply because they do not accept that dogma. Iow "Jesus has to be God, therefore you must believe that Jesus is God to be "saved," and if you do not agree with me you are lost."

of course if you are the Body of Christ, you are also accepting a form of deity for yourself, as perceived by many also. The progression there is also pretty obvious, i guess.

The one v that is not scribed to death in order to make Jesus into God, "God is the head of Christ," is brushed aside, see, because that is not "A" enough for most Christians i guess
 

GodsGrace

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Genesis 18: 1
Then the LORD appeared to Him [ Abraham ] by the terebinth trees of Mam're, as He was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2- "So He lifted his eyes and looked, and Behold, Three men were standing by Him; and when He saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground.
3- and Said, MY LORD, if I have now found favor in Your Sight, do not pass on by your Servant.
16- Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sod'om, and Abraham went with them to send them on their way.
17- And the Lord said shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?
were these Three all the LORD, This I can not be sure of, but it is Three that come before Abraham, shortly after the Covenant of Circumcision was established!
Also I believe that in the KJV it says shall We hide from Abraham what we are about to do ??? Not Sure!! I have a NKJV.
Hi Truth,

Different beliefs abound about who the three men in Genesis 18:1-17 are.
When there is doubt, I try not to give too much importance to the verses.

However, I have checked 4 different bibles and here's what I come up with - have thought about this in the past too...:

Genesis 18:1 is referring to God Father.
YLT says Jehovah.
KJV says LORD (which is God Father)
NASB says LORD " "
NIV says LORD " "

So we could be sure that Genesis 18:1 is GOD speaking.

Genesis 18:3
YLT ...... Lord (master)
KJV ...... LORD (God Father)
NASB.... Lord (master)
NIV ...... Lord "

If you check, you'll find that the KJV is not the best for translating all the words in Hebrew that meant "God". So I trust the other three and must believe that God did not appear to Abraham. Nor did Jesus, but a Lord of some type.
I'm not firm on this and am willing to hear opinions.

Some believe two of the three men were angels and one was Jesus.


As to your last question which I highlighted:

ALL the bibles above say "hide from Abraham that which we are about to do"...
even the KJV.
 
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GodsGrace

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Just to clarify for everyone let us presume to define God. What, we cannot? Yet some will say that God has no beginning and no ending. Is that not at least part of a definition? Can God create another God? If He and does then the new "God" would have a beginning rather than no beginning, ...or?

One place I look is the Book of Genesis and consider what Joseph was to Pharaoh:

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou." Gen 41:40
This was the king speaking to Joseph. I see a type or shadow of God [Father] and Son [Jesus].

The Father did call Jesus God, did He not? What did He mean with the following words insofar as the godhead is concerned?

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." Heb 1:6-8

Not understanding? Let the one who does please then clarify without changing a thing.
Great verse Amadeus.
Hebrews 1:6-8 which is from Psalm 45:6

Of course in the above verse God is telling Jesus, the SON, that He is God and will be sitting on His throne forever.

Maybe we could speak about this word "begotten" which has so many confused. (I don' mean on this forum).

Begotten does not mean that Jesus was gotten or made.
It means that He was a part of God Father and then became separate from God Father. But Jesus, or the 2nd person we should say, WAS FROM THE BEGINNING.
He was NOT CREATED.

It just means that He is a UNIQUE "person" - a person of deity, a divine person, ....GOD. When the bible is speaking about Jesus it will use Lord and when speaking of God it will use LORD. This is to distiniguish who is being spoken of --- not because Jesus is less in nature to God. His NATURE is a nature of God.
 

GodsGrace

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nice satire, got a good laugh out of it, but people souls are at stake. they need the truth.
may I make a suggestion. the person is where I go. if there are three person, scripture, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. question, "is this letter, (Revelation), the book, is it from three person or one". scripture, Revelation 1:4 & 5 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood".

is this a true assessment?
1. first person, "which is, and which was, and which is to come". the one called Father?.
2. second person, "the seven Spirits". the one called the Holy Spirit?.
3. third person, "Jesus Christ". a no brainier, the Son?
is this a fair assessment?


peace in Christ

Could you explain the highlighted in a different way.

I've never heard of what you're saying...
 

GodsGrace

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Are the three supposed to be equally God? Then why is that the Holy Ghost is always shortchanged by the writers of the epistles in the NT in their opening greetings? For example:

"Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." I Thess 1:1

Why was the Holy Ghost ignored?
I agree with the poster who stated that the doctrine of the Trinity was defined with time.

Jesus DID mention the Holy Spirit in Mathew 28:19 when He sends the Apostles on the Great Commission.

I believe Jesus told the Apostles the Holy Spirit would come, but they seem to have concentrated on what their eyes could see (Jesus); much as is done today?
 

GodsGrace

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So then does the one who begets precede the one who is begotten? Who existed first? If one did, then one had a beginning and apparently the other one did not.

I am using logic, but this is not necessarily supporting what I believe. Rather it is showing the difficulty or even the impossibility of clearly understanding. Hey I am a believer, but I will not embrace the trinity as so many do simply because they do.
They both existed at the same time!
Jesus is the Word. The Word was with God and was God.
The Word was Always with God.
THEN He became a man. But He was Always with God, Jesus did not come second in time.

Perhaps in "position"---to be discussed.
 

GodsGrace

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the problem perhaps then becomes not those who seek a better understanding of Christ, but those who would use that as a starting point for excluding anyone God might accept simply because they do not accept that dogma. Iow "Jesus has to be God, therefore you must believe that Jesus is God to be "saved," and if you do not agree with me you are lost."

of course if you are the Body of Christ, you are also accepting a form of deity for yourself, as perceived by many also. The progression there is also pretty obvious, i guess.

The one v that is not scribed to death in order to make Jesus into God, "God is the head of Christ," is brushed aside, see, because that is not "A" enough for most Christians i guess
What do you mean by A and notA??

I exclude no one. I'm not God and I certainly am very far from being a legalist.

I DO however believe that certain criteria has to be followed to be called a Christian.
If one is NOT called a Christian this does not mean he is not saved. This is absurd.

BUT, is a Buddhist a Christian? No. This is what I'm speaking to.

What do you mean by "a form of deity"?

And your one verse with which you have a problem:
Do you mean 1 Corinthians 11:13?

God Father is the head of God Son in POSITION.

God Father is the Almighty.
Jesus is the Son.
and then the Holy Spirit.

They are all three GOD IN NATURE.
They have different ATTRIBUTES.
They have different POSITIONS.

Some believe they are totally equal in position.
This creates theological problems.
The ECF believed they had differing positions.
This does clear up problems, such as when Jesus prayed to Father; however, He also said "the father and I are ONE". One in NATURE.
 

bbyrd009

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BUT, is a Buddhist a Christian? No. This is what I'm speaking to.
but if the Buddhist manifests Christ, what does the label amount to? Was the Good Samaritan a "Christian?" Would he even want to listen to a Christian Priest passing by on the other side of the road? Would he accept the Priest's words about Jesus?
 

bbyrd009

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What do you mean by "a form of deity"?
of course if you are the Body of Christ, you are also accepting a form of deity for yourself, as perceived by many also. The progression there is also pretty obvious, i guess.
"Jesus is God, and i am the Body of Christ, therefore i am God," although this is of course never stated