Was James confused?

[GodsGrace]

no, and you already know and understand the reply, Richard, which is that one does not do good deeds to get saved, one got saved to go on and do good deeds.

(edit; or they got saved from a fear of hell and sat down, so as to sin as little as possible i guess)

We can say that good deeds are a SIGN of our salvation.
They don't save, faith saves.
But faith demands action.
Faith could be a noun,
and it could be a verb.

Manana...

 

[FHII]

God sent James to put feet to the new idea of being saved by faith, rather than being saved by the law. This was about the Jews obligation to service, that would now all have to change with the coming of Christ.

I apologize. I missed this paragraph entirely. I would like to know what steps James made in implimenting this, because I don't see it in scripture. He succeeded in converting in his words many thousands, but they were still zealous for the law (Acts 21). He demanded (perhaos a srrong word) that Paul purify himself via Jewish custom to show everyone he still followed the Law. Again, its often missed but he laid a few thing on the gentiles as well. And of course, there is the Galatians incident. Some may say that the men from James were the bad apples and James had no part... Ok. That's not really inspiring a lot of confidence in his leadership.

If you are noting that times were changing and James just needed time, I agree. James did; Peter, John and Paul didn't, especially the latter (don't forget... Paul also preached to Jews).

So as you have shown me there was different issues (which to me seem like different populations and different doctrine), perhaps you can show me how James was going about implementing being saved by faith and not by the law. Cause I really question his gameplan if thats what he was doing. What he suceeded in doing is mixing faith with works.

 

[ScottA]

I apologize. I missed this paragraph entirely. I would like to know what steps James made in implimenting this, because I don't see it in scripture. He succeeded in converting in his words many thousands, but they were still zealous for the law (Acts 21). He demanded (perhaos a srrong word) that Paul purify himself via Jewish custom to show everyone he still followed the Law. Again, its often missed but he laid a few thing on the gentiles as well. And of course, there is the Galatians incident. Some may say that the men from James were the bad apples and James had no part... Ok. That's not really inspiring a lot of confidence in his leadership.

If you are noting that times were changing and James just needed time, I agree. James did; Peter, John and Paul didn't, especially the latter (don't forget... Paul also preached to Jews).

So as you have shown me there was different issues (which to me seem like different populations and different doctrine), perhaps you can show me how James was going about implementing being saved by faith and not by the law. Cause I really question his gameplan if thats what he was doing. What he suceeded in doing is mixing faith with works.

I wouldn't say that James had a plan he was implementing. More likely he was simply moved by his experiences, first as a Jew, then his time with Jesus, and then in the spirit. But, indeed, the mix you mention is appropriate, apropos. Those were changing times with a mix like the world has never seen, nor likely will. Christ was the apex of His own story, the center of all that is written and history itself. As such, in more ways than we might imagine, we should not be surprised to read of the apostles being scattered...just as Jesus said they would be.

But like the days of Noah, when the ark had settled upon dry land, his part quickly became history.

 

[pia]

I have come across many an unsaved person during my 3 decades with Him and most of them were brilliant at doing good deeds, some from a place of love, which I used as my 'IN' a couple of times.
Mostly when I tried to use the scriptures, peoples eyes just kind of 'glazed over' and I knew they were not taking it in.......I only did this for a short time as I joined in with my first fellowship...I never approach an unbeliever with Bible in hand anymore, haven't for a very long time......
Our good deeds, should never be to try to browbeat another into submission of what we believe.....
I do agree that once we are saved, we get really interested in doing good, but once again.....wisdom is always prudent...

 

[FHII]

I wouldn't say that James had a plan he was implementing. More likely he was simply moved by his experiences, first as a Jew, then his time with Jesus, and then in the spirit. But, indeed, the mix you mention is appropriate, apropos. Those were changing times with a mix like the world has never seen, nor likely will. Christ was the apex of His own story, the center of all that is written and history itself. As such, in more ways than we might imagine, we should not be surprised to read of the apostles being shattered...just as Jesus said they would be.

But like the days of Noah, when the ark had settled upon dry land, his part quickly became history.

So what do we do with James's writings and specifically with the notion that faith needs works? And what do we do with Paul's teachung that faith and works don't mix?

I have said this before: I am not against works and I believe every one sgould do good as mu h as they can. Its just not what we are judged by. Neither is our faith proven by our works.

Yes we are to be obedient. But obedient to the whole word and the word said we are not under the law nor are we judged by our works.

It befuddles me how anyone doesn't want ro accept that. Yes, you get to do works but you aren't judged by them. That's foid news because there aee a lot of people who are less generous than me. And a lot more who are more so.

 

[KBCid]

the word “works” each used do not mean the same thing, just doesn’t get it for me.

There are indeed several types of works found in the bible and they can be described in two ways;
1) Works performed according to the law for the covering of sin and
2) Faith based works.

In order to understand why there is no contradiction in Gods word requires one to rightly divide it. In the OT Moses gave the people specific laws of actions they were to perform to cover their sins aka works of the law and the Jews used these actions to justify themselves before God.

Faith based actions / works are a different animal. If you have faith in God and perform an act / work based on that faith it is a justification that you do have that faith. We get an idea of this animal from this verse;

2 Corinthians 9:7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

In the NT Christ states that the second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself so if you see a poor person and you perform the action / works of helping them are you doing it solely because God commanded you to do it? or are you doing it because you really love God and want to be like him?

If you do this action / work simply to comply with the command so that you can justify yourself before God to gain eternal life then you in fact are not trying to be like God and you will be told "I never knew you".
Now on the other hand there are those who say they have faith. If you say you have faith and yet never produce the fruit / works that would justify that assertion then in fact you do not have faith so, faith and faith based works are the example that Christ showed to us all.

A good man from the goodness of his heart will do good deeds not because he was told to do it and he will be justified before God that he has faith, not as an exchange for God's promise of eternal life.

 

[H. Richard]

not it is not, it is a call to reconcile the two, and that is all i am suggesting.

***

What you can't seem to see is that have already reconciled the two. One is writing to the Jews who were under the law and the other to the world under grace. Funny you can't seem to see it.

 

[H. Richard]

OK H.Richard
I'm home...

First of all, whatever happened to your response to me as to some kind of support that James was not written to everyone?

2 Timothy 3:16 says that ALL scripture is inspired by God.
That the man of God may be equipped for every good WORK.

Oh no. Two terrible thoughts in ONE verse!!
1. ALL scripture is inspired.
2. WORKS are necessary.
***

I did respond but it seems you will not accept what I wrote as a response. READ JAMES 1:1 and it tells you WHO it is written to. It was written to Jews. For you and anyone else to say it was written to the Gentile church too makes what James said in James 1:1 a lie. Who are you going to believe James or those that want it written to the Gentiles too so that they can impose the requirement of man's works to gain salvation???????

You seem to think that if it is in the Bible it is written go all. Okay, go to the Temple and offer your sacrifice.

If, as you say, works are necessary then you are saying Paul lied when he wrote the following;

Gal 6:12-14
12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. (this is what the works crowd are doing)
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NKJV

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

If you can't see verse 9 above then you are saying Paul lied.

From all that I write it is obvious that my only claim is the cross where Jesus paid (atoned) for all my sins of the flesh. My only boast is in the cross. But the religious boast of their works that they think will earn them a place in heaven.

 

[H. Richard]

There are indeed several types of works found in the bible and they can be described in two ways;
1) Works performed according to the law for the covering of sin and
2) Faith based works.

In order to understand why there is no contradiction in Gods word requires one to rightly divide it. In the OT Moses gave the people specific laws of actions they were to perform to cover their sins aka works of the law and the Jews used these actions to justify themselves before God.

Faith based actions / works are a different animal. If you have faith in God and perform an act / work based on that faith it is a justification that you do have that faith. We get an idea of this animal from this verse;

2 Corinthians 9:7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

In the NT Christ states that the second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself so if you see a poor person and you perform the action / works of helping them are you doing it solely because God commanded you to do it? or are you doing it because you really love God and want to be like him?

If you do this action / work simply to comply with the command so that you can justify yourself before God to gain eternal life then you in fact are not trying to be like God and you will be told "I never knew you".
Now on the other hand there are those who say they have faith. If you say you have faith and yet never produce the fruit / works that would justify that assertion then in fact you do not have faith so, faith and faith based works are the example that Christ showed to us all.

A good man from the goodness of his heart will do good deeds not because he was told to do it and he will be justified before God that he has faith, not as an exchange for God's promise of eternal life.

***


It is the religious that want others to do works that they approve of as works. But it is God who determines the life of His children. I am on this forum boasting of the work of Jesus on the cross where He paid for the sins of the whole world. But the religious are on here trying to say what Jesus did is not enough unless a person does what the religious think they ought to and they go back under the law to do it.

The problem, as I see it, is that the religious want to judge others as to what works they should be doing and they use the law to determine that work. If I, through my writings, help one soul to escape the fires of the "Lake of Fire" then I have done a good work but it is not listed in the works crowds list of works. But it is in God's list.

 

[H. Richard]

We are NOT UNDER the Law.
This would be the Old or Mosaic Covenant.

HOWEVER, the Law is not abolished.
Mathew 5:17

The terms Justification and Sanctification were interchangeably used in the N.T. by Paul. This was sorted out the the church, both in the beginning by the early Christian theologians, and also by more modern day theologians.

What you are describing above, and in Corinthians is Justification.
Please find out what Sanctification means. I know I won't convince you as to its meaning, and I won't attempt to.

Of course, if you DO find out, it'll knock out your whole theory of salvation, so you may NOT WANT to find out.

That's up to you.

I can tell you that what you are stating is NOT biblical and is not correct and is not what the bible teaches.

***
And since you have said it that makes it true, right? Get off the fence. I know that what I believe IS IN THE BIBLE. Either the book of James was written to the Jews, as James said it was, or James lied. You can talk all around it and post all the scriptures you want but it will not make it go away. Personally, I believe what James said, it was written to the Jews who were under the law of Moses and since those under grace are not under the Law of Moses it should not be used in the grace church to form a theology. What James wrote has nothing to do with those under grace.

 

[bbyrd009]

What James wrote has nothing to do with those under grace.

and all of the supporting Scripture on works not from James? What about it?

 

[Armadillo]

***
So we are to lie and say James wrote to the Gentiles too. That doesn't make sense.

Don't you know that I can see what some are doing? If I don't tow the line they wish they will do just as the Pharisees did when they lied about Jesus.

I have proclaimed that James was writing to the Jews only and for that I am called to task. James told the world WHO he was writing to and to say he left out the Gentiles is a lie. The truth is the truth and and those that just can't see the words will believe the lie.

You misread what I wrote, but that's ok. Just find Grace in the Book of James, Jesus is there, and preach it. Simple.

 

[H. Richard]

yes, but Paul walked the walk lol, and your Scripture does not beat

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

10For we must all appear before the tribunal of Christ, so that each may be repaid for what he has done in the body, whether good or worthless.

ok, no matter how much you want it to. the two must be reconciled, you can't just keep ignoring half of the picture.
if you just enjoy "faith v works" arguments, there's like a billion of them online, all doing the same thing we are.

***
You seem to put this thread under a works v faith thread. But that is not what it is about. It is about taking the words of the scriptures to mean what they say. Answer the question, Did James write his book to the Jews only as he said he did or did he write it to all which He did not say. In simple language which is true what James said or what the religious say. Personally I believe what James said.

James never accepted that the gospel of grace to be for the Jews. In Acts 15 we see that James accepted the Gentiles and that they did not have to keep the Law of Moses but nowhere in that dialogue did James say the Jews did not have to keep it. That is plain to see in Acts 21.

 

[bbyrd009]

Did James write his book to the Jews only as he said he did or did he write it to all which He did not say. In simple language which is true what James said or what the religious say. Personally I believe what James said.

i've never heard a pastor even say any different, Richard.

 

[H. Richard]

and all of the supporting Scripture on works not from James? What about it?

Okay go ahead and bring all the scriptures under this thread and it will not satisfy the works crowd who insist that it takes a person's works to earn salvation.

 

[bbyrd009]

In Acts 15 we see that James accepted the Gentiles and that they did not have to keep the Law of Moses but nowhere in that dialogue did James say the Jews did not have to keep it. That is plain to see in Acts 21.

hey, go with what you know there, but now it seems like you've gone from ignoring James here to maybe listening to him a little too hard, dunno.

"Works" is a problematic word imo, because it can mean "of the law," or the minimum requirements, or it can mean "good deeds" too, but the concepts are developed well enough without James anyway, i think

 

[H. Richard]

You misread what I wrote, but that's ok. Just find Grace in the Book of James, Jesus is there, and preach it. Simple.

***

Here are some facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting. But I know the religious will not see them.
-
1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.

These FACTS should be seen.

 

[bbyrd009]

Okay go ahead and bring all the scriptures under this thread and it will not satisfy the works crowd who insist that it takes a person's works to earn salvation.

imo the argument is mostly one of misunderstanding. You say "earn salvation," but it is prolly more like "demonstrate salvation."

part 2 is that those vv would be by way of influencing you, who is insisting upon grace alone, and not any "works crowd," who would of necessity be more amenable to the vv, being as how they establish works, some 20, some 50, some 100, like that

 

[H. Richard]

i've never heard a pastor even say any different, Richard.

***

When a sermon is preached based on the book of James to those under grace you are saying it is for them too. Which it isn't.

 

[H. Richard]

imo the argument is mostly one of misunderstanding. You say "earn salvation," but it is prolly more like "demonstrate salvation."

part 2 is that those vv would be by way of influencing you, and not any "works crowd," who would of necessity be more amenable to the vv, being as how they establish works.

***

I just love it. All those people who think they are so good to others when in fact they aren't that good. Observe those trying to get out of the church but are blocked by those who are so oblivious to others that they block to door way to talk to others. Observe how those in a Sunday School class will not say what they really believe because it might damage their relationship with others.

I don't have to demonstrate my salvation by my works. It is my faith in what Jesus did on the cross that is my claim. And if that is not enough then all the works a person can do would not satisfy the religious.