freewill is bogus

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perrero

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a man born a moron or mentally deficient, especially like us after the fall cannot possibly have free will imho - plead not guilty and hope for mercy or go to hell - twinc
Why not? If a man is capable of understanding between good and evil (even though some might need more of God's nudging, wooing, etc, than others) why can he not at some point choose to follow good or for that matter discount the nudging and refuse (freewill choice to ignore) what God is attempting to do?
Freewill is not subject to good or evil, it is just the God given capacity of choice. No different than God choosing to create or not create. It does not define Him or us. It is the motive or intent behind that defines us. Freewill just activates what has already been decided in the heart. That's why God aims to change the heart of man so that all his freewill decision fall in line with His will.
 

perrero

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I can’t go along with this idea. Warning about consequences does not excuse anyone from mercy and justice.
Maybe I'm not clear?
Do you blame God for what went on in Las Vegas? If not?
Who or what is to blame?
 
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aspen

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I think Christ is Gods heart broken for us on the Cross.....this life is momentary suffering, which appears drawn out. The purpose of suffering is to cultivate empathy for neighbor - our hearts should be broken like God’s heart on the Cross.

The only way for any of the present suffering to make sense beyond profound empathy is beyond any of our understanding
 
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aspen

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Maybe I'm not clear?
Do you blame God for what went on in Las Vegas? If not?
Who or what is to blame?

Based on my human understanding, I have no other option, but to cry out with a broken heart in response to pain and tragedy. Blaming is part of the grief process. In the end, we are supposed to emerge from grief with a stronger sense of empathy. I do not think getting caught in the blame stage of grief is healthy, but neither is denying it.
 

perrero

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about the "nothing ever died before A&E sinned," which resonates well as a concept, but how can there be birth without death? Physical death?
I'm only going by Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
I don't see death prior to sin, as God is life and not the author of death. And death is still life in a dreadful place.
 
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perrero

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Based on my human understanding, I have no other option, but to cry out with a broken heart in response to pain and tragedy. Blaming is part of the grief process. In the end, we are supposed to emerge from grief with a stronger sense of empathy. I do not think getting caught in the blame stage of grief is healthy, but neither is denying it.
I will agree that empathy should be the primordial attitude of our hearts as this is what God would feel at such a calamity, for everyone hurt and everyone affected. Such is his infinite compassion. Which also leads me to believe that God would never orchestrate such a thing.
 
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FHII

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If you can respond specifically to my questions, we'll be able to have a dialogue.
Well then we aren't going to have a dialogue.

Perrero, i am not going to answer a bunch of questions that don't seem to have relevance and are clearly meant for entrapment. If you have something to say, then say it. If it interrsts me, I will respond.
 
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perrero

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Well then we aren't going to have a dialogue.

Perrero, i am not going to answer a bunch of questions that don't seem to have relevance and are clearly meant for entrapment. If you have something to say, then say it. If it interrsts me, I will respond.
Sorry, I'm not here to play games.
 

aspen

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Hi BG,

I agree with you that our will is totally free to do as it pleases within the sphere of His will.

God created us and commanded us to obey the moral law. He has promised to reward for the observance of this law and to punish us for the violation of His law. We choose to obey or disobey. Unless man is really free, he cannot be held responsible for his actions. Would God hold us accountable for something He made us do? Of course not.

I think we are on the same page here dear.

IHS...Mary

Hi Mary,

What do you think of the idea that fallen humanity is determined and reunited humanity has freewill?
 

bbyrd009

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I'm only going by Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
I don't see death prior to sin, as God is life and not the author of death.
i guess the argument is that that could very well mean "spiritual death," with physical death being an irrelevancy to God, Who creates life at will. And if there is no physical death, how could there be physical birth?
And death is still life in a dreadful place.
hmm, Samuel didn't seem to think so, asked Saul why he was "disturbing his sleep."
 

bbyrd009

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I will agree that empathy should be the primordial attitude of our hearts as this is what God would feel at such a calamity, for everyone hurt and everyone affected. Such is his infinite compassion. Which also leads me to believe that God would never orchestrate such a thing.
Sorry, such a thing as what? Anticipating "suffering" here, maybe that might be viewed more like we observe one of our children "suffering" over something adults chuckle (quietly) over? Like that?
 

VictoryinJesus

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Since when does God have to intervene in such calamities? God warned mankind through Adam that sin will bring death. Everything that dies on this planet is the consequence of sin and death that has entered this world.
If God intervenes in one situation, He must intervene in all. And the moment He intervene in all, He goes back to the sandbox with human toys.

I am sorry but the God I know is NOT a God that is uninvolved. I know this by His word. There is not one wasted word in the Word of God. NOT one wasted; take even the most seemly mundane verse, for instance: 1 Timothy 5:23 KJV
[23] Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities...this verse HAS purpose and meaning and significance from the Holy Spirit. It is not a place holder or rambling. It is for our benifit. Nothing is wasted by God.

I can't explain the shooting in Vegas. If God has removed His hand from this world, as you say: He never intervenes because if He does once, then He has to intervene always. We know Gods hand of salvation remains. That is God's intervention. It is all about perspective: we think being murdered in this world means we have been cheated out of something; cheated out of more time or something special. It is the perspective of death. Death is a way out. Death is separation from sin. So we Judge God and the only rational explanation we can come up with is: God doesn't intervene.

Matthew 17:17 KJV
[17] Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

Mark 9:19 KJV
[19] He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

Isaiah 5:5-6 KJV
[5] And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: [6] And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

"It shall not be pruned" is still God being God. He decides: when to prune and when not to prune. We complain and question Him.

Daniel 4:33-37 KJV
[33] The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers , and his nails like birds' claws . [34] And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: [35] And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? [36] At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me. [37] Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


Are we praising a God that serves us;
Or are we praising a God that allows us to serve Him?
 
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amadeus

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a viable perspective imo, but another one has the "skin" as Christ, what then?
Yes, for Jesus is now certainly our covering.

They sinned and they saw themselves to be naked. They sewed fig leaves together as a covering, but God saw it as inadequate, so He gave them something better, the skins, until the best [Jesus] became available.
 
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bbyrd009

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Yes, for Jesus is now certainly our covering.

They sinned and they saw themselves to be naked. They sewed fig leaves together as a covering, but God saw it as inadequate, so He gave them something better, the skins, until the best [Jesus] became available.
tbh i never heard this "ego/skin" thing, and i can't find anything on the interwebz to the effect, either?
 

amadeus

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tbh i never heard this "ego/skin" thing, and i can't find anything on the interwebz to the effect, either?
My first clue of this came from a man who was a bit unpopular on a couple of my very early Internet forum connections quite a few years ago. I learned a lot from him. @"ByGrace" would certain remember him and likely he is still around in places. It fit in very well with some scriptural ideas already known to me. I did a Bible study on it and came up with a lot more things... Use a concordance to search the scriptures for the words, cover, covering, covered, etc. and you'll find many of them.
 

bbyrd009

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My first clue of this came from a man who was a bit unpopular on a couple of my very early Internet forum connections quite a few years ago. I learned a lot from him. @"ByGrace" would certain remember him and likely he is still around in places. It fit in very well with some scriptural ideas already known to me. I did a Bible study on it and came up with a lot more things... Use a concordance to search the scriptures for the words, cover, covering, covered, etc. and you'll find many of them.
in ref to "ego?" I am not finding any, at all! I also am not finding any relevant hits in search, like zero?