freewill is bogus

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Richard_oti

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hmm, Samuel didn't seem to think so, asked Saul why he was "disturbing his sleep."

Luke 16:19-26. Of which, such can also be seen in the book of Enoch.

So in a way, perhaps both are right from their various perspectives, one thinks it is dreadful...
 
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amadeus

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in ref to "ego?" I am not finding any, at all! I also am not finding any relevant hits in search, like zero?
I had not even really considered the ego. That's just man looking at himself effectively as his own best friend or his own savior. Instead of a one on one thing [one man to himself], it's like men forming their own corporate body of what they consider "good" things to do his own thing and to solve their own problems. This corporate body is depicted perhaps in the group of people building the tower of Babel [Gen 11]to make a name for themselves as one body opposed which really quite opposed to [anti-Christ] the One Body of Jesus connected firmly to and in subjection to Jesus as the Head.
 
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perrero

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i guess the argument is that that could very well mean "spiritual death," with physical death being an irrelevancy to God, Who creates life at will. And if there is no physical death, how could there be physical birth?
hmm, Samuel didn't seem to think so, asked Saul why he was "disturbing his sleep."
I would refer to the story of Lazarus on this one. Luke 16:20
 

perrero

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Sorry, such a thing as what? Anticipating "suffering" here, maybe that might be viewed more like we observe one of our children "suffering" over something adults chuckle (quietly) over? Like that?
Such a thing as the Las Vegas shooting.
 

perrero

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I am sorry but the God I know is NOT a God that is uninvolved. I know this by His word. There is not one wasted word in the Word of God. NOT one wasted; take even the most seemly mundane verse, for instance: 1 Timothy 5:23 KJV
[23] Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities...this verse HAS purpose and meaning and significance from the Holy Spirit. It is not a place holder or rambling. It is for our benifit. Nothing is wasted by God.

I can't explain the shooting in Vegas. If God has removed His hand from this world, as you say: He never intervenes because if He does once, then He has to intervene always. We know Gods hand of salvation remains. That is God's intervention. It is all about perspective: we think being murdered in this world means we have been cheated out of something; cheated out of more time or something special. It is the perspective of death. Death is a way out. Death is separation from sin. So we Judge God and the only rational explanation we can come up with is: God doesn't intervene.

Matthew 17:17 KJV
[17] Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.

Mark 9:19 KJV
[19] He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.

Isaiah 5:5-6 KJV
[5] And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: [6] And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

"It shall not be pruned" is still God being God. He decides: when to prune and when not to prune. We complain and question Him.

Daniel 4:33-37 KJV
[33] The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers , and his nails like birds' claws . [34] And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: [35] And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? [36] At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me. [37] Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.


Are we praising a God that serves us;
Or are we praising a God that allows us to serve Him?
I'm sorry I wasn't clear on this issue.
I do agree with you that God is involved in this world. But to what extent? If He saves everyone from the shootings, the hurricanes, the earthquakes, etc. etc. He might as well change everything so that the world is like He originally design it to be. (Eden). Somewhere in all this, man is suffering the results of the sin, death and degradation of this planet. Call it judgment, genetic curse, a dying world, global warming (which is the biggest hoax of our days), aging or bad luck, the fact is that from the beginning man has suffered because of Adam's choice. Mixed within this is the plan of God, who is not willing that any should perish. Which means yes, He is involved. Christ who came and walked among us is evidence of that. But I believe His involvement is not based on the calamities that may arise but more so on anything necessary to bring an individual to repentance and salvation. Would that not be God's ultimate goal?
And when God intervenes in the lives of the unsaved should He not be fair and equitable in His ways? If it takes 2 visions and three dreams for an individual to be convinced, have faith and turn to God, I believe this measure should be same for all. Notice I said measure. Because we are all different (different backgrounds, upbringing, education, stubbornness, etc) some will require more or less convicting and wooing of the Spirit. To one a simple witness will do, to another being knocked off his horse. Each measure is equitable. But the moment He intervenes more for one than another, then I question the justice of it.
I hope that makes some sense.
Cheers
 
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VictoryinJesus

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But I believe His involvement is not based on the calamities that may arise but more so on anything necessary to bring an individual to repentance and salvation. Would that not be God's ultimate goal?

It makes sense. Thank you. I agree; repentance and salvation is the goal.
 

bbyrd009

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I would refer to the story of Lazarus on this one. Luke 16:20
ya, that presents a diff image, huh. Although a drop of water on the tongue of someone supposedly surrounded by flames is immediately kind of suspicious. Meshak, Shadrak, and Abed~nego present another pov.
 

bbyrd009

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Such a thing as the Las Vegas shooting.
ok ya; i suggest that they amount to the same thing, in a Being to Whom physical death is completely irrelevant. Iow that is a tragedy to us, but we do not have perspective. We react to the tragedy, essentially the symptoms, rather than act to prevent the tragedy, and deal with the problem.
 

VictoryinJesus

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ok ya; i suggest that they amount to the same thing, in a Being to Whom physical death is completely irrelevant. Iow that is a tragedy to us, but we do not have perspective. We react to the tragedy, essentially the symptoms, rather than act to prevent the tragedy, and deal with the problem.

Not to vere off on gun control but I agree
with "We react to the tragedy, essentially the symptoms, rather than act to prevent the tragedy, and deal with the problem."

Guns are not the problem; it's the hand the gun is in. Is it possible we are focused on the wrong thing if we are to prevent more mass shootings? Why not focus on the Deterioration of the family. The hatred modeled by society and those in high places. Why not focus on bitterness. How everyone is divided and angry. This is the time of selfies, social media, and being totally consumed with image and self promotion. Every one has a cell phone in their hands. Taking photos of themselves and presenting an image that all is good. Next time you are out driving; count how many people you see driving while talking on their phone (even though it is illegal). Dinners lack conversation, instead a piece of technology is the relationship. I am guilty of it myself. There is a disconnect. There is little real interaction. People are broken and in a pressure cooker. God is absent. Why the climb in the number of shootings? Let's talk about the real issue. God being stripped from everything.


Gun control won't change anything.

The real issue is much larger and weighter...sorry, don't know if weighter is a word. How can we lower the pressure in the pressure cooker?

It use to be:
Lone Ranger and Andy griffin. Now the atmosphere of entertainment is something totally different.

That is just my opinion though.
 
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bbyrd009

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Let's talk about the real issue. God being stripped from everything.
yup--hey, if you got yourself a good education, and a great job, can buy all the food you want, and bought a brick house, and got insurance on it all, and you are relying on the rule of law to keep the peace, what do you need God for, right? Your brothers go and die "so we don't have to sacrifice." The state encourages this, of course, so we will be dependent upon them and not God.

And God is not going to interfere in that, not even a little bit, because "reap what you sow" will. You got insurance for health, so you are going to need it lol. Certainly seems completely logical to buy health insurance, don't get me wrong; at least from one perspective.

Your health insurance is killing you, and the mechanism is not even hard to see imo. I got rich selling health insurance, and the mechanism could be described to a believer in a paragraph, the desire/purchase/perspective shift thing that occurs in people's heads.
 

bbyrd009

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don't know if (weightier) is a word. How can we lower the pressure in the pressure cooker?
ha, lower it, i'm trying to turn it up if anything lol. Or not really--all that = "the world" to me. If you are under any pressure, or feeling the heat, or under the gun, or any of those idioms we use for death or hell, then these are signs imo, and there is not going to be anything worse than hearing words like these come out of your mouth again at your trial, in a manner of speaking, imo, whenever you think that trial might occur. (As far as i'm concerned the verdict is already in, and this trial is a spiritual thing)
 

bbyrd009

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I can't explain the shooting in Vegas. If God has removed His hand from this world, as you say: He never intervenes because if He does once, then He has to intervene always.
ha, for all we know the shooting is God, intervening, as hard as that is to contemplate.
Iow the sow/reap mechanism is working great, but we just don't want to reap what we sow.
 

amadeus

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And God is not going to interfere in that, not even a little bit, because "reap what you sow" will. You got insurance for health, so you are going to need it lol. Certainly seems completely logical to buy health insurance, don't get me wrong; at least from one perspective.

Your health insurance is killing you, and the mechanism is not even hard to see imo. I got rich selling health insurance, and the mechanism could be described to a believer in a paragraph, the desire/purchase/perspective shift thing that occurs in people's heads.
When I was still working as a Social Security Claims Representative and of course much younger I had an opportunity to go to work in the private sector in insurance earning a lot more money. Sales was the problem for me. I dealt with people and their Social Security benefit checks as well as their Medicare, but I did not have to sell it. I only needed to understand it and explain to people who were in the system whether they liked it or not. I stayed with Social Security because I could not deceive people to get them to buy insurance. Later, God dealt with me in a different way and I had to disconnect from Uncle Sam so as to reconnect with God.

I am still stuck with a lot of things that at times almost undo me. I receive three checks each month on which to live. My wife receives one. All four checks are based on our work and contributions to Uncle Sam, so you see some of the connection cannot be disconnected. At nearly 74 after 17 years of retirement I cannot return to work and if I could what could I do which would be separate from the systems of the beast? So as a man I have done what I can to disconnect. Now I really have to trust God to stay on His side in spite of my connections.
 
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bbyrd009

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Now I really have to trust God to stay on His side in spite of my connections.
amen, don't we all? I read "leave the world" a lot like i read "be perfect as I am perfect," iow somewhat TIC statements that are possibly meant to point to where we really are mentally, a lot like maybe telling a 16 year old boy to not look at girls lustfully. Not a joke, exactly, but meant to point out the human condition. Like me saying "instead of chuckling at the little kid's reply, follow his advice." Sounds great, but i can't even do it, so i shouldn't be judging others who can't do it either.

i bet the general tone in the passages @ "leave the world" and "be perfect" before those were uttered was one of judging others too, or stating some ideal from a certain perspective, "wouldn't it be great if everyone would just ________" or something, i'll have to go look now lol.

nope--the general tone seems to be "be different."

47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary? Don't even the Gentiles do the same?
 
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Marymog

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Hi Mary,

What do you think of the idea that fallen humanity is determined and reunited humanity has freewill?
I don't understand the question.

Mary
 

aspen

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I don't understand the question.

Mary

A person who is in mortal sin/a fallen state is determined for Hell/can not choose good

A person who is living in A state of Grace/in the process of being redeemed after being approached by Christ and following after Him has freewill
 

Marymog

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A person who is in mortal sin/a fallen state is determined for Hell/can not choose good
A person who is living in A state of Grace/in the process of being redeemed after being approached by Christ and following after Him has freewill
As long as we are alive we can choose good. Atheist. Muslim. Agnostic. Mentally ill. Even if you never heard of Jesus like the people in the remote jungles of the Amazon . It doesn't matter. Grace is given; it is not earned. ALL are living in a state of grace.

A person who is in mortal sin can confess their sin. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld. Whatever is bound on earth shall be held in heaven".

IHS...Mary
 
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aspen

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As long as we are alive we can choose good. Atheist. Muslim. Agnostic. Mentally ill. Even if you never heard of Jesus like the people in the remote jungles of the Amazon . It doesn't matter. Grace is given; it is not earned. ALL are living in a state of grace.

A person who is in mortal sin can confess their sin. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld. Whatever is bound on earth shall be held in heaven".

IHS...Mary

I think we can confess our sins only if we are approached by Christ first - we cannot approach the Tree of Life on our own
 
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