freewill is bogus

[aspen]

Another example of the bondage of living through your false self might explained by looking at a drunk person. Drunk people cannot consent or make choices - they are at the whim of their inebriated self. Slaves to the alcohol - they may believe they can make choices, but every choice leads towards death and destruction - it is not freewill. People who are sober can make a clear choice to remain sober or submit to slavery.

 

[DPMartin]

If there is no free will then there is no God.
Free will is one of the capacities that we are given that makes us in His image.
Without free will, we are nothing but Barbies and GI Joes for Him. God is in no need for toys. He had no need for us in eternity before creation and would have no need of us for an eternity onward.
Free will is what makes us individually precious to Him.
It is what allows Him to share, care and give us a life filled with Himself and if reciprocated it provides us with gracious benefits.
There is only one reason for God to create humans, Relationship. And that requires true free will, otherwise we are back to the sandbox with toys.

nope your view is a western culture view that one's own judgement is right, which is set above God's Judgement of good and evil by the individual. ( not necessarily the rest of the world's) the relationship is to execute God's Judgement not yours (which is Life by the way). again you think to chose coke and pepsi is the same as the chose made for you. A&E made the chose for you of which was really God's chose, on the life you receive in this world, its God choice for the life you receive through His Son and you must be chosen. according to scripture not western cultures views.

and again you can be brought to a point to be willing, which has nothing to do with chose. because its some one else's choice to bring you to that point of willingness.

 

[Marymog]

one the Holy Spirit is the Presence of God, Jesus says God is Spirit.


the Lord God brought Egypt to it's knees deliberately stating to Moses more than once the He hardened Pharaoh's heart to bring Egypt to almost total destruction and then wiped out Pharaoh's army in the sea. just to show His chosen (Israel) that He is Lord.

what's breathing got to do with it?

and again you are not paying attention, choices like coke and pepsi, being a workaholic or being a shiftless lay about has nothing to do with the subject at hand, does it? this subject is about freewill and how its applies to choosing God or wiliness to serve God, and its not so.

Hi DPM,

VictoryinJesus asked the question: Who decides if you take your next breath? So if you want to know what breathing has to do with it, ask him, not me.

Those choices (Pepsi, coke, workaholic etc.) are made of our own free will therefor it is a part of the subject at hand. We can not pretend we have freewill in one aspect of our lives (Pepsi or Coke, pick my nose in public or not pick my nose in public) and the say that we are Gods puppet in the other aspect of our lives. Either we have freewill or we don't.

IHS...Mary

 

[Marymog]

yes of course in Him we move and live and have our being - most don't understand but don't understand they just don't understand and are determined they do understand and being misled are busy misleading others = we do not even breathe but think we do when we do not even think since thoughts occur - we are guilty of the greatest sin of all viz the sin of pride i.e.taking the glory away from God and claiming it for ourselves when we should be submissive not like robots but like little children but it seems we must all pass through the gates of Gethsemane and kneel alone in darkness there and battle with this fierce despair - God pity those who cannot say not mine but thine will be done who only pray let this cup pass but cannot see the purpose for Gethsemane[Wilcox] - twinc

I move, I live that is how I know I am a being. I am only a being because of Him - they don't understand because they have been taught by men who don't understand so those that teach are responsible for the misunderstanding and the weight of that sin is on their shoulders.

according to some we don't have freewill so they can't say "not mine but thine will be done" because they are a puppet, they have no will...Mary

 

[DPMartin]

Hi DPM,

VictoryinJesus asked the question: Who decides if you take your next breath? So if you want to know what breathing has to do with it, ask him, not me.

Those choices (Pepsi, coke, workaholic etc.) are made of our own free will therefor it is a part of the subject at hand. We can not pretend we have freewill in one aspect of our lives (Pepsi or Coke, pick my nose in public or not pick my nose in public) and the say that we are Gods puppet in the other aspect of our lives. Either we have freewill or we don't.

IHS...Mary

what does what a rabbit can do, as in choose the lettuce or the carrot, got to do with A&E the life we are born into the world with and God's choice for us? so you are incorrect, it has nothing to do with the Life given to man through Christ or the life man gives to the sons of man. and who choose that life.

 

[Marymog]

what does what a rabbit can do, as in choose the lettuce or the carrot, got to do with A&E the life we are born into the world with and God's choice for us? so you are incorrect, it has nothing to do with the Life given to man through Christ or the life man gives to the sons of man. and who choose that life.

Thank you.

IHS....Mary

 

[Marymog]

Evil is tragic and oppressive. I can't understand why anyone would hurt people they do not even know. I don't understand why it happens. But, Mary, I prefer to live in a world where evil is NOT outside of God's control. God raised Pharaoh. Even if we hate the thought of it; God also allowed Hitler to raise to power. God could have stopped it at any moment. Do you think God doesn't see or know our country, no the EARTH, is in a state of unrest and groaning from pain? Do you think God has lost control? Or do you see clearly that mankind's nature is pure evil; without God and His moral law?

You said: "Breathing is automatic. When it stops being automatic we have to think about it and force it." Yet, our breaths are numbered and only He knows the count of them. You can add nothing to your life. Breathing may be automatic, but God has decided my last breath.

Matthew 6:27-30 KJV
[27] Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? [28] And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: [29] And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. [30] Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Possibly, we believe only Peter and others spoken of in God's word have a vital role, and since their display of the Son(Christ) was so vital and needed for the furtherance of the gospel, that the Lord was more involved. God is no respecter of persons. He still pays attention. our words and actions are still needed for the furtherance of the gospel. As children born of God; what we say and do is of an importance to God. For His Will, not ours. So, again, God is involved in whether or not: I am productive or lay flat on my back. It may come through discipline; but He will get me up and moving in the direction He wants me to go in. Even if it hurts.

(Acts 27: 1-44)

Matthew 10:30 KJV
[30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Hi,

If God decides our last breath does that mean everyone that commits suicide was killed by God?

You do not have to remind me that you think you are a puppet. I understand, but disagree, with your theory

Using your theory that God "will get me up and moving in the direction he wants me to go in" means that God moved the Las Vegas shooter into that direction? I don't know this God YOU speak of.

IHS...Mary

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hi,

If God decides our last breath does that mean everyone that commits suicide was killed by God?

You do not have to remind me that you think you are a puppet. I understand, but disagree, with your theory

Using your theory that God "will get me up and moving in the direction he wants me to go in" means that God moved the Las Vegas shooter into that direction? I don't know this God YOU speak of.

IHS...Mary

What happened in Las Vegas is horrifying but if for one second I believed God had no power to prevent it...and since he does have the power then He choose not to: then I am left with the question? What good are You going to bring through such loss, God?

How do you know what God is doing? Have you read His word?

Isaiah 18:7 KJV
[7] In that time shall the present be brought unto the Lord of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the Lord of hosts, the mount Zion.

Peeled is strong word.

Isaiah 19:1-12 KJV
[1] The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. [2] And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. [3] And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. [4] And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts. [5] And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up. [6] And they shall turn the rivers far away; and the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither. [7] The paper reeds by the brooks, by the mouth of the brooks, and every thing sown by the brooks, shall wither, be driven away, and be no more . [8] The fishers also shall mourn, and all they that cast angle into the brooks shall lament, and they that spread nets upon the waters shall languish. [9] Moreover they that work in fine flax, and they that weave networks, shall be confounded. [10] And they shall be broken in the purposes thereof, all that make sluices and ponds for fish. [11] Surely the princes of Zoan are fools, the counsel of the wise counsellors of Pharaoh is become brutish: how say ye unto Pharaoh, I am the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings? [12] Where are they? where are thy wise men ? and let them tell thee now, and let them know what the Lord of hosts hath purposed upon Egypt.



Knowing what you know now: would you have cried "crucify HIM!" Or would be like Peter and demand that YOU know best?

Not a puppet. A servant.

I will stay with the God I know. The one that works all things to the good of those that love Him.

 

[Helen]

Hi, ( to Victory)

If God decides our last breath does that mean everyone that commits suicide was killed by God?

You do not have to remind me that you think you are a puppet. I understand, but disagree, with your theory

Using your theory that God "will get me up and moving in the direction he wants me to go in" means that God moved the Las Vegas shooter into that direction? I don't know this God YOU speak of.

IHS...Mary

Hi Mary
I'm just interested...do you believe that God has left the planet in mans hands to see what man will do with it?
We are making quite a mess..."education" has made monsters of some people.
Once they took any power away from the teachers ( decades ago now) the youngsters grew up with some spirit of entitlement upon them. Feminism has removed and curtesy or politeness between the sexes...and so on etc...
Mankind has clearly made his choice, and his choice is not God or God's principals.
I personally believe that God is allowing man to do as he did millenniums ago when-
"and man did everything that was right in his own eyes.."
I believe God is with-holding His hand right now....and allowing the darkness before The Dawn of His Glory. ( in other words...He is very much allowing mans free will if only to show man that His is the best and kindest!!. )
Somewhere else on this site I forget where....I mentioned to someone that I believe our will is totally free to do as it pleases.....but I qualify that by saying...within the sphere of His will.
Like kids in a HUGE garden or field ....free to hurt themselves or others, free to be wise or foolish...but most unaware that He has His Plan and His glorious purpose in it all, and we are all inside His greater will . (as a small circle within a very large circle)
Are we anywhere close in how we see it?

 

[Marymog]

What happened in Las Vegas is horrifying but if for one second I believed God had no power to prevent it...and since he does have the power then He choose not to: then I am left with the question? What good are You going to bring through such loss, God?

How do you know what God is doing? Have you read His word?

Isaiah 18:7 KJV
[7] In that time shall the present be brought unto the Lord of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the Lord of hosts, the mount Zion.

Peeled is strong word.

Isaiah 19:1-12 KJV
[1] The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. [2] And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. [3] And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. [4] And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts. [5] And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up. [6] And they shall turn the rivers far away; and the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither. [7] The paper reeds by the brooks, by the mouth of the brooks, and every thing sown by the brooks, shall wither, be driven away, and be no more . [8] The fishers also shall mourn, and all they that cast angle into the brooks shall lament, and they that spread nets upon the waters shall languish. [9] Moreover they that work in fine flax, and they that weave networks, shall be confounded. [10] And they shall be broken in the purposes thereof, all that make sluices and ponds for fish. [11] Surely the princes of Zoan are fools, the counsel of the wise counsellors of Pharaoh is become brutish: how say ye unto Pharaoh, I am the son of the wise, the son of ancient kings? [12] Where are they? where are thy wise men ? and let them tell thee now, and let them know what the Lord of hosts hath purposed upon Egypt.


Knowing what you know now: would you have cried "crucify HIM!" Or would be like Peter and demand that YOU know best?

Not a puppet. A servant.

I will stay with the God I know. The one that works all things to the good of those that love Him.

Dear VIJ,

You are the one that made the statement God "will get me up and moving in the direction he wants me to go in". Based on your belief in what God WILL DO, God got the Vegas shooter up and moving in the direction He wanted him to go. If He didn't want him to commit that horrible act He would have got the shooter up and moving in a different direction. Therefor, according to your statement/theory, the shooter was a puppet doing what God wanted him to do; God got the shooter up and moving in the direction he wanted him to go. God also got all the victims up and moving to be in the path of the bullet that ended their life.

I believe God had foreknowledge of what was going to occur, however, foreknowledge is not the same as making a person move on one direction or move in the other direction.

A servant is a devoted follower of the master. A puppet has no choice and is made to do what the master wants. If you hold the belief that we do not have freewill then your belief makes you a puppet.

The God you know made you write what you wrote. You didn't have a choice to write it if you don't believe we have freewill.

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

IHS...Mary

 

[Marymog]

Hi Mary
I'm just interested...do you believe that God has left the planet in mans hands to see what man will do with it?
We are making quite a mess..."education" has made monsters of some people.
Once they took any power away from the teachers ( decades ago now) the youngsters grew up with some spirit of entitlement upon them. Feminism has removed and curtesy or politeness between the sexes...and so on etc...
Mankind has clearly made his choice, and his choice is not God or God's principals.
I personally believe that God is allowing man to do as he did millenniums ago when-
"and man did everything that was right in his own eyes.."
I believe God is with-holding His hand right now....and allowing the darkness before The Dawn of His Glory. ( in other words...He is very much allowing mans free will if only to show man that His is the best and kindest!!. )
Somewhere else on this site I forget where....I mentioned to someone that I believe our will is totally free to do as it pleases.....but I qualify that by saying...within the sphere of His will.
Like kids in a HUGE garden or field ....free to hurt themselves or others, free to be wise or foolish...but most unaware that He has His Plan and His glorious purpose in it all, and we are all inside His greater will . (as a small circle within a very large circle)
Are we anywhere close in how we see it?

Hi BG,

I agree with you that our will is totally free to do as it pleases within the sphere of His will.

God created us and commanded us to obey the moral law. He has promised to reward for the observance of this law and to punish us for the violation of His law. We choose to obey or disobey. Unless man is really free, he cannot be held responsible for his actions. Would God hold us accountable for something He made us do? Of course not.

I think we are on the same page here dear.

IHS...Mary

 

[Helen]

Hi BG,

I agree with you that our will is totally free to do as it pleases within the sphere of His will.
God created us and commanded us to obey the moral law. ...etc Unless man is really free, he cannot be held responsible for his actions. Would God hold us accountable for something He made us do? Of course not.

I think we are on the same page here dear.

Wow...Is that a first? I think so ...hope we can do it again sometime.

 

[perrero]

The thing is if we really do have free will, then God will never intervene. Once he does he breaks whatever code free will has.

God will not intervene if by doing so it adversely affects the course of our willful decisions. "For God is not willing that any should perish"

I don't see how knocking Paul to his knees and blinding him is allowing free will. I don't see how God hardening Pharoah's heart while his country was suffering as being free will. I don't see God saying, "I raised up pharaoh to show my greatness" as being free will.

Many people have had worse happen to them or less and yet have not converted and cursed God. How one responds to the gentle nudging of the Spirit or the blinding light is still a freewill choice on their part. Pharaoh had 10 opportunities the capitulate and repent. And we must believe that an infinite loving and good God would have relented if Pharaoh did repent like Nineveh.
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex.7:3) Because of this verse and others, most Christians believe that God is the one who is hardening Pharaoh's heart, circumventing the freewill He gave to Him. Far be it from God to do such a thing. This would be evil and against His loving character and also in direct contradiction in what God envisioned in the first place which was "true relationship with man.". It is Pharaoh who is the stubborn one, the arrogant one, the idolatrous one, thinking himself as god in opposition to the real God. Pharaoh is the one who FIRST hardens his heart in defiance (See Ex. 22-23) and following his rebellious freewill decision of contempt, God then hardens that decision to bring about His Glory and display of supremacy. Nevertheless God is always sensitive to a repentant heart and would have stayed any judgment if Pharaoh had capitulated to His will.

Isaiah 46:10. God declared the end from the beginning and all his will shall be done.

What end from what beginning for God has no end and no beginning?

Eph 1:11. God works all things after the council of HIS will. These are realky tough verses to get by. People try to say that overall... Yes. God is going to get his way, but he's not talking about each individual person. I disagree. Tell that to Paul. Or Jeremiah. Or Isaiah or Jonah. Or even Moses. They all tried to back out. They failed.

To disagree does not make you right on the subject.

We perceive free will because we have difficult choices to make. Because we have hardships and persecutions. That is nothing more than our education for better things. Its our training. Most folks who tout free will have no problem with acknowledging God foreknows our decisions. Yet, the will not acknowledge that God declared them and works them.

This is true. It is usually the Armenian understanding. And I will agree with you and would call it watered down Calvinism or gutless Calvinism.

 

[FHII]

God will not intervene if by doing so it adversely affects the course of our willful decisions. "For God is not willing that any should perish"

Yet he did... Several times. I gave you plenty examples. And whom is God talking about when Peter said God is not willing that any should perish? He's talking about Christians.

How one responds to the gentle nudging of the Spirit or the blinding light is still a freewill choice on their part.

Gentle nudging? Ok. Did God intervene and change their will? Yes, he did.

. Pharaoh is the one who FIRST hardens his heart in defiance (See Ex. 22-23)

Not so... God was the first to harfen Pharoah's heart.

Exodus 7:13 KJV
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

Now can you show me where in exo 22 and 23 (while Moses was giving the Law) where Pharoah first heardened his own heart?

Nevertheless God is always sensitive to a repentant heart and would have stayed any judgment if Pharaoh had capitulated to His will.

Hebrews 12:17 KJV
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Esau was rejected, didn't find repentance though he sincerely sought it.

What end from what beginning for God has no end and no beginning?

Well then your arguement isn't with me but with what the Bible says. But that seems to be a distracting point. The focus is on that God declared it.

To disagree does not make you right on the subject.

Which is why I gave examples, and you saying they had free will while God was intervening and changing their will doesn't mean they had free will.

You saying I am wrong does not make me wrong on the subject.

 

[tabletalk]

Perrero said: "God will not intervene if by doing so it adversely affects the course of our willful decisions."

Peter's willful decision was to prevent Jesus from being taken by the Roman soldiers. The disciples didn't want Jesus to be crucified.

But, God's purpose "intervened" in Acts 2: 23. "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God,.."

 

[bbyrd009]

Perrero said: "God will not intervene if by doing so it adversely affects the course of our willful decisions."

Peter's willful decision was to prevent Jesus from being taken by the Roman soldiers. The disciples didn't want Jesus to be crucified.

But, God's purpose "intervened" in Acts 2: 23. "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God,.."

hmm, this might be rephrased, Peter's decision was to cut off an ear, and he succeeded, but i'll let @perrero reply

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Jonah was swallowed by a fish(God had prepared) and then Jonah was spit out into the direction he was to go in. Jonah sat under a gourd in the hot sun, until a worm ate his shade.


Jonah 4:6-11 KJV
[6] And the Lord God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd. [7] But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered. [8] And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live. [9] And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death. [10] Then said the Lord , Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: [11] And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Isaiah 51:8 KJV
[8] For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

 

[twinc]

it is precisely because we do not have freewill that Jesus came to set us free - try and tell Paul at Rmns 7:14-25 - how can a carnal, warped, fragmented, fallen will be free - twinc

 

[bbyrd009]

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex.7:3) Because of this verse and others, most Christians believe that God is the one who is hardening Pharaoh's heart, circumventing the freewill He gave to Him. Far be it from God to do such a thing. This would be evil and against His loving character and also in direct contradiction in what God envisioned in the first place which was "true relationship with man.". It is Pharaoh who is the stubborn one, the arrogant one, the idolatrous one, thinking himself as god in opposition to the real God. Pharaoh is the one who FIRST hardens his heart in defiance (See Ex. 22-23) and following his rebellious freewill decision of contempt, God then hardens that decision to bring about His Glory and display of supremacy. Nevertheless God is always sensitive to a repentant heart and would have stayed any judgment if Pharaoh had capitulated to His will.

nice. 'Hardening someone's heart' might easily be the diff in telling them "Ok, do what you like, but be careful that _____," v "No, you cannot do that."

 

[bbyrd009]

Most folks who tout free will have no problem with acknowledging God foreknows our decisions. Yet, the will not acknowledge that God declared them and works them.

the same principle might be seen in parents with children; just because a certain child has free will does not mean that the parent cannot reliably predict what that child would do in a given situation. Does that mean that the parent predestined the child to that behavior?