Wrong Teaching on "God's Sovereignty"=Worst Doctrine in Church today!!

[Helen]

@Rev20 Hello there
I don’t we have written to each other before... I welcome to the Site.
And yes, mjrhealth was indeed speaking of you. Well , not really “ of you”...but so many say -
“ Give we a scripture for that” .... I know what he means because so many of us have been steeped in the word for decades!

Yet I hear what you are saying also, because out of one bible...we have all the creeds and denominations! But that nullifies your argument because it only proves that each can support their position and belief by which every scripture is cherry picked! Because we all know that any doctrine rests of a favourite few scriptures.. So, in fact scripture actually “ proves” nothing at all.

A few decades back, I heard an excellent bible teacher do this....he took 30 mins and by scriptures “ proved” the belief that every man everywhere would be saved in the end. Then he took other scriptures and in another 30 mins “ proved” that men who did not believe in Jesus go to hell, forever.
Then he opened the floor for questions and by quoting scripture “ proved” a doctrine...and next question asked , he “disproved” it. He was the closest I’ve known ( still know him) to a person who through years of study can give chapter and verse for the whole bible itself.


So no....” Prove it by scripture “ is no proof at all.....everyone cherry picks that which supports their own argument....plus by now, we should all know the scriptures and not need quotes as much.
It being the language that we speak and think in!

But, I guess we shouldn’t derail this thread by changing the subject of the OP. :)

I’ve said before many times....the best we have is an opinion on what we think the scripture is saying. And there I stick.
We trust the Holy Spirit our Teacher , to lead us into all truth.
Good talking to you...God bless....

.

 

[ScottA]

I am not sure what your point is, Scott. Paul and Peter were explaining to the children of Israel that, thanks to Christ, Israel was no longer under the law. In fact, that was virtually the exclusive theme of their epistles. First Peter was addressed exclusively to the scattered tribes in Asia Minor; and the first eleven chapters of Romans was addressed primarily to the remnant of Israel.

How will you understand if you do not stay focused? We were discussing death to self, which is well outlined in the verses I gave you...because you were unaware, and asked.

That history is written down for all to see, Scott, and can be freely downloaded. This site has everything organized for you:

Research Library - Bible Research Tools

Click "Bible Study" on the top menu, then "Church History Publications" for a menu to three pages that contain downloadable lists of Ante-Nicene, Nicene and Post-Nicene, and Church History publications.


Things were a little more complicated than that, Scott. Those were the times when a person could be executed for simply possessing a biblical manuscript. The early church was also heavily influenced by Gnostics, Judaizers, and others who had rejected the plain teachings of Christ during the Apostolic days, but remained and thrived after Christ gathered his Elect around A.D. 70. Early Church History has many publications written to expose and combat against those heresies. It is believed that many of those "Christians" holding up in Pella during the Jewish/Roman War were of the heretical sects. Christ told his elect to flee to the mountains, not to Pella.

You are not listening. I had dismissed the history you refer to as fascinating, but evident without getting lost in the details, which you apparently have done. The simple fact, and my point, is that when Jesus gave the church a choice of following a man or the spirit of God, they (like Israel did in Saul's time) did not choose direct interaction and Lordship from God. Alternatively, worship has turned into service, and spiritual gifts squandered. Do you not know, that these are those who are left in the field?

 

[mjrhealth]

The scripture seems to contradict you:

"Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." -- Amos 3:1-2 KJV

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it appears that God foreknew only the children of Israel. Can you point us to scripture that might indicate otherwise?

Rev

Well he certainly knows me, doesnt HE know you??? oh thats right its not in the bible, God forbid that we could fit all of Gods wisdom in a book.

Joh_21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

And that is just for teh life of JEsus, How small is your God???

 

[Rev20]

If you are a part of a local church, wouldn't you be in one of those "30,000 denominations, each claiming superior doctrine to the other." ?

No. You are assuming that everyone who attends a local church adheres to the local church doctrine. Many churches have "rebels" who place the Bible first, like the Bereans of old.

I kinda doubt that each one claims superior doctrines. Many churches/denominations/communions have very similar doctrines, with various emphases.

Perhaps you can list a few denominations who do not claim to have superior doctrine.

Rev

 

[tabletalk]

No. You are assuming that everyone who attends a local church adheres to the local church doctrine. Many churches have "rebels" who place the Bible first, like the Bereans of old.



Perhaps you can list a few denominations who do not claim to have superior doctrine.

Rev

How about PCA,OPC,CREC?

 

[Rev20]

@Rev20
Yet I hear what you are saying also, because out of one bible...we have all the creeds and denominations! But that nullifies your argument because it only proves that each can support their position and belief by which every scripture is cherry picked! Because we all know that any doctrine rests of a favourite few scriptures.. So, in fact scripture actually “ proves” nothing at all.

The existence of creeds and denominations hardly "nullifies" my argument, but rather reinforces it. When people cherry pick the scriptures to develop or support their creed or denomination, which includes unprovable claims to be "speaking from the holy spirit", they should be challenged.

A few decades back, I heard an excellent bible teacher do this....he took 30 mins and by scriptures “ proved” the belief that every man everywhere would be saved in the end. Then he took other scriptures and in another 30 mins “ proved” that men who did not believe in Jesus go to hell, forever.
Then he opened the floor for questions and by quoting scripture “ proved” a doctrine...and next question asked , he “disproved” it. He was the closest I’ve known ( still know him) to a person who through years of study can give chapter and verse for the whole bible itself.

That is easy to do if you do not present all the evidence. For example, Jesus said:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." -- John 6:44 KJV

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." -- John 6:37 KJV

"I and my Father are one." -- John 10:30 KJV

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." -- John 12:32 KJV

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" -- John 3:14 KJV

So, Jesus was lifted up, drew all men unto himself, and cast none out; or, at least, that is the way it appears if the scripture is cherry-picked. But that is ignoring a lot of contrary doctrine.


One can also adopt (and promote) the fatalistic doctrine that the earth is going to be destroyed by cherry-picking 2 Peter 3:10, which reads:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2Pet 3:10 KJV

But such a doctrine contradicts many other passages in the scripture that declare the earth abides forever (Eccl 4:1; Ps 78:69; Ps 104:5, etc.). By faith we know that God never contradicts himself, so we must be reading the scripture "through a glass darkly" if we believe one way without understanding why the alternative does not contradict it.

As it turns out, the things Peter said would be burnt up -- the "heavens, earth and elements" -- were names the Jews gave to parts of the physical temple in Jerusalem, which was completely destroyed a few years after Peter wrote his letter. A name was also given to the outer court of the Gentiles: "the Sea". So when John wrote,

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." -- Rev 21:1 KJV

He was likely speaking of the new spiritual house (1 Pet 2:5-9) in which the Gentiles and Jews worshiped together, and were no longer separated by "the wall" (Eph 2:11-14). In other words, there was no longer a separate court for the Gentiles -- there was no more "Sea".

So no....” Prove it by scripture “ is no proof at all.....everyone cherry picks that which supports their own argument....plus by now, we should all know the scriptures and not need quotes as much. It being the language that we speak and think in!"

That is a logical fallacy, Grace. You have dogmatically determined that "scripture is no proof at all" because, as you claim, "everyone cherry picks" it. That in no way proves the scripture to be false, nor does it prove that we should ignore the teachings of Christ and his Apostles when they contradict our own reasoning, even if we believe that reasoning comes from "the holy spirit within us".

By the way, Jesus did not instruct John to send the holy spirit to the seven churches in Asia. He instructed John to write His words in a book and send it to them.

But, I guess we shouldn’t derail this thread by changing the subject of the OP.
I’ve said before many times....the best we have is an opinion on what we think the scripture is saying. And there I stick.
We trust the Holy Spirit our Teacher , to lead us into all truth.
Good talking to you...God bless.....

The Word of God is Holy Spirit, Grace

Rev

 

[Rev20]

How will you understand if you do not stay focused? We were discussing death to self, which is well outlined in the verses I gave you...because you were unaware, and asked.

You were discussing that, Scott. I, on the other hand, have been trying to find out from my first post to you why you believe you were "in Christ from before the foundation of the world". I asked that question because I know of no verse or passage that supports your claim. If there is, I would like to learn of it.

You are not listening.

Of course I am "listening", Scott.

I had dismissed the history you refer to as fascinating, but evident without getting lost in the details, which you apparently have done. The simple fact, and my point, is that when Jesus gave the church a choice of following a man or the spirit of God, they (like Israel did in Saul's time) did not choose direct interaction and Lordship from God. Alternatively, worship has turned into service, and spiritual gifts squandered. Do you not know, that these are those who are left in the field?

Someone had to carry the torch, Scott; otherwise we would not have the canon of the Old and New Testament preserved for us, and you would have never heard of the "holy spirit".

I am unconvinced you understand church history, Scott.

Rev

 

[Rev20]

Well he certainly knows me, doesnt HE know you??? oh thats right its not in the bible, God forbid that we could fit all of Gods wisdom in a book.

Joh_21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

I am reminded of this old proverb:

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." -- Pro 3:5 KJV

The Word of God was preserved for us so we would not be forced to rely on our own understanding. But if those 31,000+ verses of words are not enough for you, you can always make stuff up and pretend it came from the "holy spirit".

And that is just for teh life of JEsus, How small is your God???

Don't be silly.

Rev

 

[Rev20]

How about PCA,OPC,CREC?

What about them?

Rev

 

[ScottA]

You were discussing that, Scott. I, on the other hand, have been trying to find out from my first post to you why you believe you were "in Christ from before the foundation of the world". I asked that question because I know of no verse or passage that supports your claim. If there is, I would like to learn of it.

I will paraphrase, not my words, but His:

History, in which we have a part, is His story, the revelation of Jesus Christ. He made all that was made, meaning He manifest all things. Planted in this garden are wheat and tares for the harvest, meaning those who are of God and those who have rebelled against Him. But this is not a garden, but is "as" a garden. Rather, all this is a manifestation, an image (as it were), revealing Jesus Christ. We are created in that image...that image that was cast before the foundation of the world, but now revealed through the course of created time. It is written - not being written, but written in God and in Christ whom is the Word. We, if we are in Christ...are written...in the books that are now revealed. Written when? The better question is: When is God, when is the Father, and when is the Son? Well, they have answered when, saying, "I am." Which, I will ask you: When was that? Again, they have given us the answer: "Before the foundation of the world." These things are all written, why do you ask me and treat me as ignorant, if I tell you them?

Someone had to carry the torch, Scott; otherwise we would not have the canon of the Old and New Testament preserved for us, and you would have never heard of the "holy spirit".

I am unconvinced you understand church history, Scott.

Yes, preserved for every generation. But I myself, did not read of it until He had revealed Himself to me.

 

[Rev20]

I will paraphrase, not my words, but His:

History, in which we have a part, is His story, the revelation of Jesus Christ. He made all that was made, meaning He manifest all things. Planted in this garden are wheat and tares for the harvest, meaning those who are of God and those who have rebelled against Him. But this is not a garden, but is "as" a garden. Rather, all this is a manifestation, an image (as it were), revealing Jesus Christ. We are created in that image...that image that was cast before the foundation of the world, but now revealed through the course of created time. It is written - not being written, but written in God and in Christ whom is the Word. We, if we are in Christ...are written...in the books that are now revealed. Written when? The better question is: When is God, when is the Father, and when is the Son? Well, they have answered when, saying, "I am." Which, I will ask you: When was that? Again, they have given us the answer: "Before the foundation of the world."

Who is "they" that "have given us the answer", Scott, and who were they speaking of?

These things are all written, why do you ask me and treat me as ignorant, if I tell you them?

You have "told" me many things, Scott, but you have not answered my question.

Yes, preserved for every generation. But I myself, did not read of it until He had revealed Himself to me.

We are not communicating, Scott, and I am unconvinced we can. This is how I interpret the term "before the foundation of the world", which is mentioned exactly three times in the New Testament:

1) God loved his son, Jesus, before the foundation of the world:

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me [Christ] before the foundation of the world." -- John 17:24 KJV

2) Christ was ordained before the foundation of the world:

"[Christ] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," -- 1Pet 1:20 KJV

3) The "elect" were chosen before the foundation of the world.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" -- Eph 1:4 KJV


The "elect" are Christ, along the faithful children of Israel chosen by Christ to assist Him in establishing his Church:

"Behold my servant [Christ], whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." -- Isa 42:1 KJV

"For thou [Israel] art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." -- Deu 7:6 KJV


God foreknew only the children of Israel:

"You only [Israel] have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." -- Amos 3:2 KJV


Those he foreknew (Israel) he predestined to serve him:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Rom 8:29-30 KJV

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -- Eph 1:4-5 KJV


They were the ones who first trusted Christ:

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." -- Eph 1:10-12 KJV


Peter, writing to the scattered tribes in Asia Minor, acknowledged they -- the children of Israel -- were elected according to the foreknowledge of God:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered [Greek: diaspora] throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." -- 1Pet 1:1-2 KJV

Peter goes on to tell them that they are a chosen race -- a chosen nation -- who are the recipients of the royal priesthood:

"But ye are a chosen generation [Greek: race, nation], a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" -- 1Pet 2:9 KJV

The royal priesthood was promised ONLY to the children of Israel:

'And now if ye will indeed hear my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people above all nations; for the whole earth is mine. And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel.' -- Exo 19:5-6 LXX

I realize Gentiles have claimed as their own that title and others such as elect and saint; but the scripture does not support those claims.


Therefore, Scott, your claim to have been in Christ, chosen or otherwise, before the foundation of the world, rings hollow.

I personally am forever grateful to the elect -- the saints -- the faithful children of Israel -- who endured the horrors of first-century persecutions (much of it by their own people) to establish the Church for our Lord. Therefore, I strictly avoid titles given to first century Christians, such as "elect", or "saint", or "predestined", choosing rather to reserve those titles to the ones who earned them.

Rev

 

[tabletalk]

What about them?

Rev

I was answering your question: "Perhaps you can list a few denominations who do not claim to have superior doctrine."

 

[ScottA]

Who is "they" that "have given us the answer", Scott, and who were they speaking of?


You have "told" me many things, Scott, but you have not answered my question.

Seriously? I talk of "His" story naming "Jesus Christ" and "God"...and you don't know who I mean?

No wonder you think I didn't answer your question - as I said, you are not listening, nor paying attention.

We are not communicating, Scott, and I am unconvinced we can. This is how I interpret the term "before the foundation of the world", which is mentioned exactly three times in the New Testament:

1) God loved his son, Jesus, before the foundation of the world:

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me [Christ] before the foundation of the world." -- John 17:24 KJV

2) Christ was ordained before the foundation of the world:

"[Christ] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," -- 1Pet 1:20 KJV

3) The "elect" were chosen before the foundation of the world.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" -- Eph 1:4 KJV


The "elect" are Christ, along the faithful children of Israel chosen by Christ to assist Him in establishing his Church:

"Behold my servant [Christ], whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." -- Isa 42:1 KJV

"For thou [Israel] art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." -- Deu 7:6 KJV


God foreknew only the children of Israel:

"You only [Israel] have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." -- Amos 3:2 KJV


Those he foreknew (Israel) he predestined to serve him:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Rom 8:29-30 KJV

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -- Eph 1:4-5 KJV


They were the ones who first trusted Christ:

"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." -- Eph 1:10-12 KJV


Peter, writing to the scattered tribes in Asia Minor, acknowledged they -- the children of Israel -- were elected according to the foreknowledge of God:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered [Greek: diaspora] throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." -- 1Pet 1:1-2 KJV

Peter goes on to tell them that they are a chosen race -- a chosen nation -- who are the recipients of the royal priesthood:

"But ye are a chosen generation [Greek: race, nation], a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" -- 1Pet 2:9 KJV

The royal priesthood was promised ONLY to the children of Israel:

'And now if ye will indeed hear my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people above all nations; for the whole earth is mine. And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel.' -- Exo 19:5-6 LXX

I realize Gentiles have claimed as their own that title and others such as elect and saint; but the scripture does not support those claims.


Therefore, Scott, your claim to have been in Christ, chosen or otherwise, before the foundation of the world, rings hollow.

I personally am forever grateful to the elect -- the saints -- the faithful children of Israel -- who endured the horrors of first-century persecutions (much of it by their own people) to establish the Church for our Lord. Therefore, I strictly avoid titles given to first century Christians, such as "elect", or "saint", or "predestined", choosing rather to reserve those titles to the ones who earned them.

Rev

Indeed, we are not communicating. My words are spirit. Yet I have spoken plainly to you, and you still do not understand.

In which case, if you would like to continue, I have some questions of you:

1. Was time a part of God "before the foundation of the world", or part of the creation?
2. Is the Word of God the revelation of Jesus Christ?
3. What was Jesus "the Last" of?
4. "The books" that shall be opened, "were" they written, or "are" they written.
5. And again: "When" is God?

 

[Rev20]

I was answering your question: "Perhaps you can list a few denominations who do not claim to have superior doctrine."

Are you asserting those three doctrines claim their doctrine to be equal to, or inferior to the doctrines of other denominations? Let's take a look:

1) PCA - Presbyterian Church in America

II Preliminary Principles, 3. Our blessed Saviour, for the edification of the visible Church, which is His body, has appointed officers not only to preach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments, but also to exercise discipline for the preservation both of truth and duty. It is incumbent upon these officers and upon the whole Church in whose name they act, to censure or cast out the erroneous and scandalous, observing in all cases the rules contained in the Word of God. (Who determines that "truth" contained in the Word of God? The 1st Baptist Church down the street? The OPC?)

2) OPC - Orthodox Presbyterian Church

Preface, para.5. In June 1936, the First General Assembly of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (called the Presbyterian Church of America until 1939) met to constitute a new denomination as the spiritual heir of the old Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A, which had fallen under modernist control. (translation: our doctrine is superior to the modernistic PCA doctrine)

3) CREC - Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches

Constitution, preamble, para 2. . . . in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we charge you, the generations who will follow us in this confederation, to submit to the Scriptures with sincere and honest hearts, and to the standards of this confederation as consistent with the teaching of Scripture. When a portion of our order and confession is found to be out of conformity to Scripture, we charge you to amend it honestly, openly, and constitutionally, as men who must give an account to the God who searches the hearts of men. (Who determines what is "out of conformity to Scripture"? The dispensational 1st Baptist Church down the street?)

Article III, Local Congregations, Section B. Each church will adopt into its statement of faith the Apostle’s Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Definition of Chalcedon in the form found in Article X of this Constitution. (Why? Are they superior?)

Article III, Local Congregations, Section C. Each church will adopt into its statement of faith at least one of the following: [a list of 10 statements of faith]. . . (Why not adopt one statement of faith and run with it? Or, does each congregation believe their statement of faith to be superior to the other 9?)


You did not think this through, tabletalk.

Rev

 

[Rev20]

Indeed, we are not communicating. My words are spirit.

You have convinced yourself into believing your words are spirit, Scott, and I know you want to believe it. But your words are not spirit. Nor are mine.

Have you not read the scriptures? The oracles of God was committed to the faithful children of Israel. They alone received the Word from the Almighty, Scott:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." --Rom 3:1-2 KJV

It is true that some of the first century Gentiles were given the power to speak in tongues:

"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter," --Acts 10:45-46 KJV

But there is no evidence they received any power other than the ability to speak foreign languages in which they had no training. The only words of the spirit which they were able to speak were those words conveyed to them by those who had received the oracles of God, such as Paul, Peter, John, and other Jews.

In which case, if you would like to continue, I have some questions of you:

1. Was time a part of God "before the foundation of the world", or part of the creation?

That is a meaningless philosophical question, Scott.

2. Is the Word of God the revelation of Jesus Christ?

According to Jesus, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. However, the Greek word for "revelation" is used 18 times in the New Testament, beginning in Luke 2:32. One could reasonably argue that the entire Bible is the revelation of Jesus Christ, since he is the "Word of God". But that is another philosophical question.

3. What was Jesus "the Last" of?

This is how he presents it:

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." --Isa 44:6 KJV

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." --Rev 1:11 KJV

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:" --Rev 1:17 KJV

"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;" --Rev 2:8 KJV

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." --Rev 22:13 KJV

That is as much as I know.

4. "The books" that shall be opened, "were" they written, or "are" they written.

It depends on which books you are referring to. For example, the scripture says these books were written:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." --Rev 20:12 KJV

5. And again: "When" is God?

Why are you asking so many "gotcha" questions, Scott? Are you unable to carry on an intelligent conversation?

Rev

 

[mjrhealth]

The Word of God was preserved for us so we would not be forced to rely on our own understanding. But if those 31,000+ verses of words are not enough for you, you can always make stuff up and pretend it came from the "holy spirit".

Oh what you are saying is " dont have faith in God, dont be led by the Holy Spirit, you dont need that, we have a book". Wow, didnt know God was that small that you could fit Him in your pocket. Devil loves the bible, it keeps men from God,

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life

some things never change.....

 

[Rev20]

Oh what you are saying is " dont have faith in God, dont be led by the Holy Spirit, you dont need that, we have a book".

My words are crystal clear. Read them again.

"The Word of God was preserved for us so we would not be forced to rely on our own understanding. But if those 31,000+ verses of words are not enough for you, you can always make stuff up and pretend it came from the "holy spirit"."

Wow, didnt know God was that small that you could fit Him in your pocket. Devil loves the bible, it keeps men from God,

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life

You took Christ's words out of context by omission. Christ was informing the Jews that he (Jesus) was the prophet that Moses warned them to hear:

"I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him. And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him." -- Deu 18:18-19 LXX

Peter spoke of the fulfillment of that prophecy by Christ:

"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." -- Acts 3:22-23 KJV

Those who refused to hear the words of Christ were cut-off from the people, though He endured long with them.


Why are the words of Christ so important? This verse explains:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." -- John 6:63 KJV

Now that you know what "spirit" is (and it is not your "feelings"), recall that Christ gave his life blood for the words of the New Testament:

"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." -- Mat 26:28 KJV

And, remember this verse?

"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." -- Mat 24:35 KJV

Would you prefer that his words do pass away? And how about this instruction:

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" -- Eph 6:17 KJV

Why are you ignoring the last clause? Why pretend it doesn't exist? And what about this instruction to Timothy?

"Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." -- 2Tim 1:13 KJV

Paul preached the fulfillment of the words of Moses and the prophets. And why ignore this warning? Are you above it?

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" -- 2Tim 4:2-3 KJV

Perhaps that time is now.


One other question. Why are you steering people away from the one thing that will help them become born again?

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." -- 1Pet 1:22-23 KJV


Since you do not seem to trust the canon of the scripture, perhaps this statement by one of the earliest non-canonical Christian writers, Clement, might get your attention:

"Look diligently into the scriptures, which are the true sayings of the Holy Spirit." -- 1Clem 45:2

I exhort you to think again about the path you have chosen and are teaching.

some things never change.....

That is true. Christianity has continually been plagued by those those who pretend their words are superior to those in the Bible under the pretense that they are "filled with the holy spirit", which is a bunch of self-righteous hogwash. Those filled with the holy spirit are those subservient to the Word, not those who pretend the Word is beneath them.

Rev

 

[ScottA]

You have convinced yourself into believing your words are spirit, Scott, and I know you want to believe it. But your words are not spirit. Nor are mine.

Have you not read the scriptures? The oracles of God was committed to the faithful children of Israel. They alone received the Word from the Almighty, Scott:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." --Rom 3:1-2 KJV

It is true that some of the first century Gentiles were given the power to speak in tongues:

"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter," --Acts 10:45-46 KJV

But there is no evidence they received any power other than the ability to speak foreign languages in which they had no training. The only words of the spirit which they were able to speak were those words conveyed to them by those who had received the oracles of God, such as Paul, Peter, John, and other Jews.




1. Was time a part of God "before the foundation of the world", or part of the creation?

That is a meaningless philosophical question, Scott.

2. Is the Word of God the revelation of Jesus Christ?

According to Jesus, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. However, the Greek word for "revelation" is used 18 times in the New Testament, beginning in Luke 2:32. One could reasonably argue that the entire Bible is the revelation of Jesus Christ, since he is the "Word of God". But that is another philosophical question.

3. What was Jesus "the Last" of?

This is how he presents it:

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." --Isa 44:6 KJV

Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." --Rev 1:11 KJV

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:" --Rev 1:17 KJV

"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;" --Rev 2:8 KJV

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." --Rev 22:13 KJV

That is as much as I know.

4. "The books" that shall be opened, "were" they written, or "are" they written.

It depends on which books you are referring to. For example, the scripture says these books were written:

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." --Rev 20:12 KJV

5. And again: "When" is God?

Why are you asking so many "gotcha" questions, Scott? Are you unable to carry on an intelligent conversation?

Rev

Enough.

You speak as one who is well read having no knowledge. You show yourself: As a caterpillar speaking of caterpillering, knowing nothing of larva or butterflies. As a child who does not know that before he was in his mother's womb he was in his father's loins, because he who has not been born has not seen his father and therefore does not yet know where he came from. As Nicodemus, saying, "How can these things be?"

To which I too will answer: You are a Rev and do not know these things? That all children were in their father's loins before they came into their mother's womb - into the world, and that you must be born again - which you have shown is not true of yourself? Has all creation not been enough that you should not know these things? You who ask for scriptures and tell me, one who has seen and knows his Father, and you accuse me of not knowing His words?

You have learned nothing.

Now then, will you also tell me again that the Son and all who are in Him, were not with the Father in His loins, nor of their Father, whose spirit they are born of - before the foundation of the world? There is one who does, and he too has many children. Pray, therefore, that your father is God, that He will reveal all truth to you as He has promised His children (which you deny), and ask Him to forgive you for being haughty with His children who have seen Him and know Him.

 

[mjrhealth]

"The Word of God was preserved for us so we would not be forced to rely on our own understanding. But if those 31,000+ verses of words are not enough for you, you can always make stuff up and pretend it came from the "holy spirit"."

You still dont get it, teh Holy Spirit was given to man so we would not lean on our own understanding, even now here you are telling me what you have learnt based on guess what, your own understanding. No faith in God,

This bit

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

but when you "believe"

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

As the disciples wrote later after getting it

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Rev20]

Enough.

That is not your call, Scott.

You speak as one who is well read having no knowledge. You show yourself: As a caterpillar speaking of caterpillering, knowing nothing of larva or butterflies. As a child who does not know that before he was in his mother's womb he was in his father's loins, because he who has not been born has not seen his father and therefore does not yet know where he came from. As Nicodemus, saying, "How can these things be?"

You have been misled into a false understanding of the spirit, Scott, and no amount of self-righteous indignation will change that. You must be born again by the Word of God to be saved:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." -- 1Pet 1:23-25 KJV

I don't understand why you don't understand that passage?

To which I too will answer: You are a Rev and do not know these things? That all children were in their father's loins before they came into their mother's womb - into the world, and that you must be born again - which you have shown is not true of yourself? Has all creation not been enough that you should not know these things? You who ask for scriptures and tell me, one who has seen and knows his Father, and you accuse me of not knowing His words?

You have learned nothing.

I know when someone is speaking foolishness, rather than the Word of God. That is an easy call. The Word of God is written down for all to see.

Now then, will you also tell me again that the Son and all who are in Him, were not with the Father in His loins, nor of their Father, whose spirit they are born of - before the foundation of the world? There is one who does, and he too has many children. Pray, therefore, that your father is God, that He will reveal all truth to you as He has promised His children (which you deny), and ask Him to forgive you for being haughty with His children who have seen Him and know Him.

Until you learn and believe the Word of God, written down for us in the Old and New Testaments, you cannot possibly understand.

Rev