Before Jesus, do you believe people went to some bad place in the afterlife?

[VictoryinJesus]

GINOLJC, to all
@ VJ. your post #11 was very interesting. one or two thing I disagreed with, but over all it's a GREAT post. after this post I'm going to give you a "LIKE". not saying that you was right or wrong, but consider this The rich man thirst. "Jesus gave the woman by the well living water. The Lamb leads to fountains of living water". true, when someone thirst, there is a LACK, supportive scripture, Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD". that thirst the rich man had was not a natural thirst, but a "lack" in the hearing of the word of God. you're on point about the water, and your Revelation 7:16-17 top it off perfectly. I commend you there.

Next, "This place we go, it seems either relationship with God is restored, or we are without Relationship. Without Relationship there is darkness and there remains a gulf (sin) separating us from The bosom of the Father". agree on the sin that separate. but the term "PLACE", not saying that you're right or wrong, just to me the word "place" do not render unto me a location, but an estate, or stated of mind. let me give an example, Ephesians 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus". is that a location or a state of mind?. sit, here means in company with Philippians 2:5 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus". so this to me, not saying that you're right or wrong, to be in the right relationship we need to have the same mind. a different mind is like having another gospel.

third, the name Lazarus, U said, "Lazarus is The Spirit (Christ) which means "God has helped" sent from the bosom of the Father." years ago when studying on Abraham the man he was worried about an inheritance, (a SON). listen, Genesis 15:2 "And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?". did you see it? if not, A. childless was in reference to inheritance. and B. no servant inherit the Kingdom of God, but only Sons. scripture, Galatians 4:6 & 7 "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father 7 "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ".
see, Eliezer in Hebrew is H461 אֱלִיעֶזֶר 'Eliy`ezer (el-ee-eh'-zer) n/p.
1. (meaning) God of help.
see, VJ you'er on point and correct. on a scale of 1-10 i'll give you a 20, a double potion... :cool:.

see, if I never would have took my time and read your post, I might have, you might have, we might have missed this revelation.

conclusion: thirst for the word of God, and get a relationship with God, (BORN AGAIN), hence become his Sons and Daughters, and inherit the Kingdom of your FATHER. amen

keep up the good work, and may God richly bless you.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

I see what you shared concerning: thirst and place. Thank you for help in bringing it into focus. You said: thirst the rich man had was not a natural thirst, but a "lack" in the hearing of the word of God. Agree.

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

The word of the Lord came "in a vision". It becomes apparent that "in a vision" still happens daily for those that eat and drink the word of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

'Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand' must also be going on daily too right

boy, the RM and Lazarus is sure doing heavy duty lol, for a parable. Any characterizations that this parable gives one, that inevitably form in any mind as they listen, can also be tested with Scripture, right. Or can also cause other Scripture to become invisible in a sense, too. The Father is not inaccessible, right now, wadr; and the dead know nothing.

 

[Truth]

I don't know! But somewhere in the Scriptures, it says that while Christ was in the belly of the Earth, that He did some Evangelizing to those that went before His Time?????? Please correct me if I am wrong!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

boy, the RM and Lazarus is sure doing heavy duty lol, for a parable. Any characterizations that this parable gives one, that inevitably form in any mind as they listen, can also be tested with Scripture, right. Or can also cause other Scripture to become invisible in a sense, too. The Father is not inaccessible, right now, wadr; and the dead know nothing.

Can you clarify further so I can understand your perspective, then I will know better how to respond?

 

[amadeus]

if i have said anything unscriptural please tell me. where do you think atheists and buddhists and ect go when they die and why? that is the part you cut out and pasted in your post #9.

God bless

Is it not possible for a person who does not belong to a designated Christian church to be in Jesus Name by his heart and by his life as he lives it? Of course to help understand what I mean consider the contrary: a person who does belong to a designated Christian church but is never in Jesus Name by his heart and by his life as he lives it.

What does it mean to be IN Jesus name?

 

[amadeus]

I don't know! But somewhere in the Scriptures, it says that while Christ was in the
belly of the Earth, that He did some Evangelizing to those that went before His Time?????? Please correct me if I am wrong!

These verses have probably been used to express what you say, but be careful with them:

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Matt 12:40

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" I Peter 3:19

"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." I Peter 4:6

 

[VictoryinJesus]

'Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand' must also be going on daily too right

The dead know nothing. So, which dead are you referring to that know nothing? Any separated from God, know nothing....because they are dead and don't even know they are dead.

Ecclesiastes 9:4
[4] For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

Ecclesiastes 9:18
[18] Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.

Proverbs 8:19-36
[19] My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. [20] I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: [21] That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. [22] The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. [23] I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. [24] When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. [25] Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: [26] While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. [27] When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: [28] When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: [29] When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: [30] Then I was by him, as one brought up with him : and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; [31] Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. [32] Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. [33] Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. [34] Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. [35] For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord . [36] But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Matt 12:40

This stands out: Jonah 1:17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

The Lord had "prepared"...what does it mean pertaining to the cross? And the Son in the heart of the earth? What was prepared?

 

[101G]

The dead know nothing

VJ there are two kinds of DEAD. the Living DEAD, and the sleeping DEAD.

the Living dead, Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins", and Ephesians 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)". now the sleeping dead. John 11:11-14 "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 "Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 "Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead".

one of these death's we can awake from, but the other, the Lord Jesus must awake us.

PCY

 

[VictoryinJesus]

VJ there are two kinds of DEAD. the Living DEAD, and the sleeping DEAD.

the Living dead, Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins", and Ephesians 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)". now the sleeping dead. John 11:11-14 "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 "Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 "Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead".

one of these death's we can awake from, but the other, the Lord Jesus must awake us.

PCY

I am trying to process the difference. Stephen went to sleep. I would not call Stephen dead but rather alive in Christ. More alive than most walking dead among the world and deceived. The death I speak of is "dead in trespasses and sins" and "we were dead in sins". Being without God...is dead. Speaking Spiritually dead, not really focusing attention on the physical body. Once alive in Christ there is no more death, but only sleep. I see, both the Lord Jesus must awake us from?? From sleep and "dead in sin" ?

 

[amadeus]

This stands out: Jonah 1:17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

The Lord had "prepared"...what does it mean pertaining to the cross? What was prepared?

God was preparing the sacrifice in the flesh of the man, Jesus:

"Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests." Zeph 1:7

Jonah was definitely subject to certain whims of the great fish [the beast within which he dwelled]. Jesus was confined in the body of a man of flesh [subject to the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh & the pride of life (I John 2:16)], his beastly nature. The sacrifice was not ready because he had to overcome the beastly ways of that temple of flesh to be a proper sacrifice. He overcame the final temptations in Gethsemene [Matt 26:39-44] and thereafter the sacrifice was fully prepared and he went on to the cross.

Before he died on the cross the beastly nature that had tempted him was already dead. He was already an overcomer [John 16:33] but He still had to go to the cross to open the Way so that you and I could become overcomers.

 

[bbyrd009]

Can you clarify further so I can understand your perspective, then I will know better how to respond?

ppl bring their expectations to the Bible, and the Bible was written with this in mind, even though the Dialectic perspective from which the Book was written is more occluded than say the Tao, which no one argues about the truth in Tao right, those truths are written in such a way as to be unassailable. Meaning one cannot reveal themselves interpreting the Tao

This has a lot to do with the see and not see of Scripture, i guess. Also why Paul can write a passage about ppl who have made up their minds, when they should be seeking to please God where they are right now, that nonetheless gets misquoted anyway lol.

The world's (churches') interpretation of the Bible is simply not going to line up, even with the rest of the Bible, see, in order to adopt any perspective of an "afterlife," some other Scripture must be invalidated, insert the "expectations" thing here. Please do not take this as a denial of eternal life, but an acceptance of "we do not yet know what we will become."

 

[bbyrd009]

The dead know nothing. So, which dead are you referring to that know nothing? Any separated from God, know nothing....because they are dead and don't even know they are dead.

awesome, then why not apply this to resurrection too? Expectations is the only reason why, see

physical death is completely irrelevant to God, and only relevant to someone who still has an id, essentially. And of course anyone in that position cannot hear anything about not getting the self--that is supposed to die, now, right, but that they still ID with so completely--to everlasting, eternal glory, as is offered in Institutional Christianity, right

 

[Truth]

These verses have probably been used to express what you say, but be careful with them:

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Matt 12:40

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" I Peter 3:19

"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." I Peter 4:6

Thank You, I was only reaching out of Memory, that was why I asked to be corrected, if I was incorrect!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

awesome, then why not apply this to resurrection too? Expectations is the only reason why, see

physical death is completely irrelevant to God, and only relevant to someone who still has an id, essentially. And of course anyone in that position cannot hear anything about not getting the self--that is supposed to die, now, right, but that they still ID with so completely--to everlasting, eternal glory, as is offered in Institutional Christianity, right

Yes, the resurrection also. Read this morning: 1 Corinthians 9: 17-18 "For if I do this thing willingly; I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel."

Against my will...what is my reward then? Christ said this to the Father in Mark "And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt." which tells us all the Son had to do was ask for the cup to be removed and it would have been. But He surrendered His will to the Fathers. I get what you are saying about death. A persons death to all the wants and desires of this world, and they wake up to paradise lost. I think that is what you mean.

 

[ScottA]

What is your concept of where people went before Jesus was born...
A terrible place?
Or Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, atheists, early Greeks that believed in Zues and Athena....also a terrible place?
Would a Jewish man not see his Christian wife and family on the Other Side, in your idea or
belief system?
Thanks.
Any thoughts, scripture ...go for it. ☺

No, it doesn't work that way. God and the kingdom are timeless, so whenever one dies they go to eternity, which is the same before and after Christ.

There is a before and after that God has made known, but it is not about where one is going or when. But rather, the distinction is between "the dead in Christ" and "the living in Christ." The difference is not in the destination, but in the point of departure, i.e., from death or from life.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

@101G... That GULF you so aptly spoke about and related to sin...I simply call "distraction" or losing focus. ☺

 

[Miss Hepburn]

...But rather, the distinction is between "the dead in Christ" and "the living in Christ."
The difference is not in the destination, but in the point of departure, i.e., from death or from life.

Scott...I'm not picking on you, per se ...but, I have never known a group...Christians... so hung up on death.... in my life....when there is no death....ever.
Uh-oh did I just start a new tangent?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Scott...I'm not picking on you, per se ...but, I have never known a group...Christians... so hung up on death.... in my life....when there is no death....ever.
Uh-oh did I just start a new tangent?

No death? Not even so that you may have life?

What do you mean "there is no death...ever?"

 

[Dcopymope]

What is your concept of where people went before Jesus was born...
A terrible place?
Or Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, atheists, early Greeks that believed in Zues and Athena....also a terrible place?
Would a Jewish man not see his Christian wife and family on the Other Side, in your idea or
belief system?
Thanks.
Any thoughts, scripture ...go for it. ☺

As far as I can see, the Bible doesn't speak of any other place the wicked go to when they die except the grave, and this goes for the just as well. When Jesus died, it says he went to hell, and he wasn't just chilling out either because Peter says he preached to the dead as well.

(1 Peter 4:1) "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

(1 Peter 4:5-6) "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. {6} For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh[/b], but live according to God in the spirit."

He isn't splitting hairs here as to where and who he preached to, just 'the dead', nothing about a place of torment, or a place of fire, or anything of the kind.