why an alar?

[bbyrd009]

I read Laban tricking Jacob. He agreed to allowing Jacob to marry one daughter, then the last moment switched for the other daughter!

ya that could happen easy, right. imo things like this are a clue that there is more to the story than what is being said

So Jacob had to work for him 7 more years..to get his first love...so I don't see Laban being " robbed bind" He was a crook..
And what you sow you also reap...Jacob pulled one on him.

yes, i am aware how retribution is made ok by preachers; trust me, we have not even broached the real subject of the passage yet.
Didn't mean Laban didn't have it coming btw, but that is not the point. "You reap what you sow" is not "Do unto others as you would have them do to you." hopefully obvious?

"Pulling one on him" seems pretty hard to justify with Scripture, at least imo

 

[bbyrd009]

Jacob pulled one on him.

29So Jacob said to him, "You know what I have done for you and your herds.
30For you had very little before I came, but now your wealth has increased. The LORD has blessed you because of me.

BTW do you have anything on :- “And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.”

no, and the commentaries are clueless too; worse. The word used for "striped" rods only occurs there in that one place, so it would be pretty hard to define much symbology from. I would take it as a given in the story, iow not pertinent to the spiritual message (which we are not even talking about) but i might be off there.

 

[bbyrd009]

To me..the story of 'how' Jacob got his wealth is the strangest in the book.

that is usually a sign to me that it is not being interpreted right, but i have not spent any time in this passage.
Seems to me more like God was pulling one on Jacob tbh? lol
we would have to get clearer on whom Jacob actually reps, what "Heel Grabber" really means in the context of "becoming Israel."
"wrestling with God" along the way, etc.
calling Edom "lord" later? yikes

 

[bbyrd009]

29So Jacob said to him, "You know what I have done for you and your herds.
30For you had very little before I came, but now your wealth has increased. The LORD has blessed you because of me.

strictly off the cuff, it seems to me that everyone was benefitting, and they were all kvetching about it too lol. Pretty much a description that most any business owner might give iow

 

[Truth]

well I can see what you are talking about, for example Abraham would build an altar wherever the Lord appeared or spoke to him and those places became significant in Israeli history like Hebron and Bethel, also another town which became the capital if Israel when it parted from Judah. there is also a statement by the Lord God in reference to wherever He leaves or places His Name can't remember where He said it though. building pillars was also used as a marker. Joshua placed a pillar of twelve stones in the middle of the Jorden when they crossed (wonder if its still there) I think Jacob did also don't remember where. so it is very possible that the correct altar in the correct place is where, so on and so forth with the Lord God of Israel. if you remember when Joseph's descendants where given land on the other side of the Jorden before crossing it, there was concern some time later about where their sacrifices where to be offered, and the tribes that crossed were ready to go to war over it, because the law stipulated that offerings were to be where ever the tabernacle was, unless under extreme cases, if my memory serves.

First altar with significance, was when Noah exited the Ark, where he sacrificed clean animals, only Noah and Family, After the Earth began to repopulate then men probably began to do sacrifice to deities using some sort of altar, so from Noah to Abram there were no accounts of altars being set up to offer sacrifice to God! we can only speculate about the descendants of Noah using altar's for other reason's.

God makes a promise to Abram about the Land, and Abram set's an altar up at Shechem, no mention of a sacrifice, probably a altar as a Memorial, a marker where God appeared to Him.
Then at Bethel, another alter, no sacrifice mentioned, But Abram call's on the name of the Lord! then later return's to Bethel and again call's on the name of the Lord, then on to Mamre and another alter, no sacrifice mentioned.

Then God ask's Abram to place Issac on the altar, sacrifice intended, But where was this place? the land called Moriah, which today they say it is the higher peak above the Temple Mount, Mount Mor-i-ah!!

Issac builds an alter and called on the name of the Lord, again no sacrifice mentioned, that was at Shebah, then called Be er she ba!

Jacob build's an altar, and names this place, El Elohe Israel, an altar for a Memorial. Jacob build's another back in Bethel and renames it El bethel, because God appeared to Him when he fled from Essau. Monuments and or Memorial's seem to be the significance of these altar's.

Moses builds an altar after the war with Amalek, and names the altar-" The Lord Is My Banner" again no sacrifice. Exodus 20:24 now an altar is built for sacrifice, made of un-hewn stone, after the Giving of the Ten Commandment's.

In the OP you ask why an altar, There had to be an understanding about altar's from Noah, transmitted through the decedent's, like Shem, Shem was the teacher that lived into Abraham's time. But there is also practices that were used in the Ancient day's that were profound act's that held strong implication's. Like a blood Covenant, which was the most Serious Oath one could undertake between two person's, or Tribe's.

At this point I have no real resolve as to why, only speculation, or just my opinion. Good Thread, makes the Gray Matter churn.

 

[Truth]

well I can see what you are talking about, for example Abraham would build an altar wherever the Lord appeared or spoke to him and those places became significant in Israeli history like Hebron and Bethel, also another town which became the capital if Israel when it parted from Judah. there is also a statement by the Lord God in reference to wherever He leaves or places His Name can't remember where He said it though. building pillars was also used as a marker. Joshua placed a pillar of twelve stones in the middle of the Jorden when they crossed (wonder if its still there) I think Jacob did also don't remember where. so it is very possible that the correct altar in the correct place is where, so on and so forth with the Lord God of Israel. if you remember when Joseph's descendants where given land on the other side of the Jorden before crossing it, there was concern some time later about where their sacrifices where to be offered, and the tribes that crossed were ready to go to war over it, because the law stipulated that offerings were to be where ever the tabernacle was, unless under extreme cases, if my memory serves.

Yes, where Jacob made a Oath with Laban, the made a mound of earth and stone, and declared, that Jacob would not pass this point and return to Laban to do Him Harm, and Laban would not pass this point to do Jacob Harm. this was just before Jacob returned to face Esau.
Most people do not know that when Syria attacked Israel in 1967, they were the descendants of Laban, and they passed that mound of earth and stone, which leads to the Golan Hights where 13 Tanks of Israel defeated 1200 Syrian Tank's-- they just stopped and retreated, Israel was within the reach of these Syrian tanks, Israel was already divided from forces from Egypt and Jordan, the Golan Hight's was the center punch, Israel would have been lost. God is with Israel, and an Oath is an Oath.

 

[Phoneman777]

why the alar?


there's no altar mentioned in Abel's offering that God had respect for. there's no mention of an altar until after the flood with Noah. of which there's no instruction mentioned in scripture that God tells any one to build and altar until Jacob is told to revisit Bethel.

Gen 35:1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.

so why an altar at all?

"And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock AND THE FAT THEREOF." Genesis 4:4 KJV

Abel separated the fat from the carcass. 2,500 years later, God instructed Moses that the fat was to be separated and burned alongside the carcass "for a sweet savor unto the Lord". "Sweet" to the Lord bc the fat represented "sin" and the burning of it was typological of the final eradication of sin and eternal restoration of peace forevermore in God's universe. Abel, nor anyone else for that matter, could not burn up the fat of a sacrifice unless he had an altar to do so.

Everywhere Abraham went, he did two things: he built and altar and he dug a well, so that henceforth desperately thirsty travelers who happened to find the life giving water of Abraham's well could quench their thirst, only to look around and find a peculiar structure made notably from un-tooled stones - representative of the Water of Life found only in the Son of Abraham's God.

 

[DPMartin]

The ground is cursed though isn't it (Gen.3:17). It was following that first mention of an altar that God said, that He would not curse the ground again (Gen.8:21). It may have no relevance, but I thought I would mention it.

'And the LORD smelled a sweet savour;
and the LORD said in His heart,
I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;
for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;
neither will I again smite any more every thing living,
as I have done.'
(Gen 8:21)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

the intent of the use of slaughter by the person I responded to and what is understood as sacrificial offering is two different subjects the first man to experience death that God had respect for, Abel, his blood cried out to God and God said He heard it. cursed ground had nothing to do with it. or Abel's offering would have been on an altar.

cursed ground is for the sake of man that man toil for his food.

 

[charity]

the intent of the use of slaughter by the person I responded to and what is understood as sacrificial offering is two different subjects the first man to experience death that God had respect for, Abel, his blood cried out to God and God said He heard it. cursed ground had nothing to do with it. or Abel's offering would have been on an altar.

cursed ground is for the sake of man that man toil for his food.

Thank you.

 

[DPMartin]

There's no "reference" - it's logical deduction.
First principle: Technology has never been revealed from heaven; from the wheel to the computer, we've had to invent it. At some time in the distant past, somebody must have had the idea of constructing something to make it easier to burn a sacrifice. Which is what we now call an altar.
Second principle: There's nothing inherently bad about technology. Unless there's a good reason not to, God uses what we invent, and thus consecrates it (e.g. the skills and techniques needed to build the Tabernacle).

nope, the bible is a document that records the relationship between the Creator and Judge and men He chooses to have a relationship with. the ways of men have no play in that. technically its easier to start a camp type fire on the ground and burn whatever one seeks to burn. no construction necessary. so your "logic" is erroneous. one thing about logic, its no different then computers, its a garbage in garbage out method. the result is no better then what is put into it.

 

[bbyrd009]

nope

"nope" what? are you rejecting all of that, or just the last part, or what?
It's like you said "nope" and then went off into a diff subject, at least reading it

 

[DPMartin]

First altar with significance, was when Noah exited the Ark, where he sacrificed clean animals, only Noah and Family, After the Earth began to repopulate then men probably began to do sacrifice to deities using some sort of altar, so from Noah to Abram there were no accounts of altars being set up to offer sacrifice to God! we can only speculate about the descendants of Noah using altar's for other reason's.

God makes a promise to Abram about the Land, and Abram set's an altar up at Shechem, no mention of a sacrifice, probably a altar as a Memorial, a marker where God appeared to Him.
Then at Bethel, another alter, no sacrifice mentioned, But Abram call's on the name of the Lord! then later return's to Bethel and again call's on the name of the Lord, then on to Mamre and another alter, no sacrifice mentioned.

Then God ask's Abram to place Issac on the altar, sacrifice intended, But where was this place? the land called Moriah, which today they say it is the higher peak above the Temple Mount, Mount Mor-i-ah!!

Issac builds an alter and called on the name of the Lord, again no sacrifice mentioned, that was at Shebah, then called Be er she ba!

Jacob build's an altar, and names this place, El Elohe Israel, an altar for a Memorial. Jacob build's another back in Bethel and renames it El bethel, because God appeared to Him when he fled from Essau. Monuments and or Memorial's seem to be the significance of these altar's.

Moses builds an altar after the war with Amalek, and names the altar-" The Lord Is My Banner" again no sacrifice. Exodus 20:24 now an altar is built for sacrifice, made of un-hewn stone, after the Giving of the Ten Commandment's.

In the OP you ask why an altar, There had to be an understanding about altar's from Noah, transmitted through the decedent's, like Shem, Shem was the teacher that lived into Abraham's time. But there is also practices that were used in the Ancient day's that were profound act's that held strong implication's. Like a blood Covenant, which was the most Serious Oath one could undertake between two person's, or Tribe's.

At this point I have no real resolve as to why, only speculation, or just my opinion. Good Thread, makes the Gray Matter churn.

"Gray Matter churn"! that sounds like it hurts.


with Noah its the first altar mentioned and one might note that Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years, which is until Abram was 50 +- yr.'s old. so all the repopulated world at least till then, was aware of Noah's altar. Nimrod was only two generations from Ham and in Nimrod's day there was the tower of babble. so the spreading of mankind via different languages happen way before Abram came into the world, seeing Abram is tenth.


one might also note that God didn't tell Abram to place Isaac on an altar, Abram built one but there's no mention by God of an altar. God doesn't instruct anyone to build an altar until Jacob's return to Bethel (Gen 35:1) as far as I can tell.

just some conversation on that, anyway:

you're right about "There had to be an understanding about altar's from Noah, transmitted through the decedent's."


its covenant, could represent a standing covenant, but its about covenant (agreement). God made covenant with Noah, his descendants the earth and all living things thereon that day. before that the only covenant was the commandment given at the garden and after man died from the Life he was given (dust to dust and the promise of the coming Christ). in the case of sacrifices the blood covenant and the marker for the standing blood covenant are one. each time a altar is built there is some sort of agreement accomplished. and the altar marks the agreement. when God would meat with Abraham or speak to Abraham there was a agreement or promise if you will, given that day in that place.

 

[DPMartin]

Thank you.

"And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock AND THE FAT THEREOF." Genesis 4:4 KJV

Abel separated the fat from the carcass. 2,500 years later, God instructed Moses that the fat was to be separated and burned alongside the carcass "for a sweet savor unto the Lord". "Sweet" to the Lord bc the fat represented "sin" and the burning of it was typological of the final eradication of sin and eternal restoration of peace forevermore in God's universe. Abel, nor anyone else for that matter, could not burn up the fat of a sacrifice unless he had an altar to do so.

Everywhere Abraham went, he did two things: he built and altar and he dug a well, so that henceforth desperately thirsty travelers who happened to find the life giving water of Abraham's well could quench their thirst, only to look around and find a peculiar structure made notably from un-tooled stones - representative of the Water of Life found only in the Son of Abraham's God.

sorry doesn't say Abel separated the fat:


Gen_4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

also in the law as in Leviticus one should consider that when one places fat and salt on meat being grilled it flavors it and keeps it from drying out because in some cases the one who offered, and in most cases the priests eat the meat of the offering. so the separation of the fat and placing on the meat to render through the meat was the intent because they consumed the fat in another form in the meat. so you self made theology sucks.

as far as Abel's offering including the fat simply means the best of the firstlings the most sumptuous and tender of meat. if you have a guest you care about you, bring out your best.

 

[Phoneman777]

sorry doesn't say Abel separated the fat:


Gen_4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

also in the law as in Leviticus one should consider that when one places fat and salt on meat being grilled it flavors it and keeps it from drying out because in some cases the one who offered, and in most cases the priests eat the meat of the offering. so the separation of the fat and placing on the meat to render through the meat was the intent because they consumed the fat in another form in the meat. so you self made theology sucks.

as far as Abel's offering including the fat simply means the best of the firstlings the most sumptuous and tender of meat. if you have a guest you care about you, bring out your best.

There's no reason whatsoever for the passage to state "and the fat" if the fat was still intact on the carcass. The Mosaic directive to separate the fat from the carcass and the mentioning that Abel brought both the carcass "and the fat thereof" is more than enough evidence that God made known His required method of sacrifice to Adam and Eve, as He did to Moses.

Either God Himself designed what is by far the most important, compelling, solemn, representative object lesson the universe will ever know - the method of sacrificing lambs which typified the Great Sacrifice of His own dear Son --- or He left it up to erring, sinful, pathetic men to devise a method to represent that Great Sacrifice.

 

[pia]

Technology has never been revealed from heaven

I am at a loss as to why you would conclude such a thing ?

 

[Deborah_]

I am at a loss as to why you would conclude such a thing ?

Can you give me an example of technology being revealed from heaven? I can't think of one.

 

[bbyrd009]

an example of technology being revealed from heaven - Google Search

though even "revealed" doesn't really mean "sent down from" exactly; "sanctioned by."
RFID chips seems to be all the interwebz can come up with there

 

[bbyrd009]

There's no reason whatsoever for the passage to state "and the fat" if the fat was still intact on the carcass. The Mosaic directive to separate the fat from the carcass and the mentioning that Abel brought both the carcass "and the fat thereof" is more than enough evidence that God made known His required method of sacrifice to Adam and Eve, as He did to Moses.

Either God Himself designed what is by far the most important, compelling, solemn, representative object lesson the universe will ever know - the method of sacrificing lambs which typified the Great Sacrifice of His own dear Son --- or He left it up to erring, sinful, pathetic men to devise a method to represent that Great Sacrifice.

Cain and Abel have zero to do with actual blood sacrifices, i'm pretty sure. fwiw

 

[bbyrd009]

BTW do you have anything on :- “And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.”

"We read here that the stripes were specifically “white” – “and (Jacob) peeled white stripes in (the rods).” The Hebrew word for “white” used here is “laban.” This should strike you as being unique, insomuch that it is the identical Hebrew word as his father-in-law’s name for whom he was laboring – Laban." http://www.remnantbride.com/pdffiles/the_rod.pdf

 

[Helen]

"We read here that the stripes were specifically “white” – “and (Jacob) peeled white stripes in (the rods).” The Hebrew word for “white” used here is “laban.” This should strike you as being unique, insomuch that it is the identical Hebrew word as his father-in-law’s name for whom he was laboring – Laban." http://www.remnantbride.com/pdffiles/the_rod.pdf

Excellent! Well found.