Who Does The Father Draw?

[Stranger]

I've discussed election with you. I even agreed with you at one point,but you're too vague.

This is mainline Chrisitianity. I didn't make it up, it's been around since after the resurrection:

Jesus came to save the world because God so loved us all.
Thus, we believe in the incarnation of God in the being of Jesus.
We believe in the Trinity.
We believe in the Hyopstatic Union.
We believe in salvation by grace though faith in God.
We believe in confessing our sins to God for forgiveness.
We believe the Kingdom of God is in us and our of us, as Jesus said in John 3:3

The Christian religion has been in place many years, about 2,000. It's not up to us to make it anew.

I agree with all but the statement concerning the kingdom of God. But that is not the subject of this thread. And no one is making anything new.

Arn't you glad that is not all God wrote to give us concerning Himself, Jesus Christ, and our faith? He could have just used one small notepad and passed us the note.

Consider this. The doctrine of election is one reason many turn away from God. It was true in Jesus day also. (John 6:65-66) "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

If GOD chooses YOU,
how can you be SURE you're saved???

I am not exactly sure what you are asking here. As to my initial salvation, I know I am saved because I have trusted in Christ. And He promised in (John 6:37) "...and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with all but the statement concerning the kingdom of God. But that is not the subject of this thread. And no one is making anything new.

Arn't you glad that is not all God wrote to give us concerning Himself, Jesus Christ, and our faith? He could have just used one small notepad and passed us the note.

Consider this. The doctrine of election is one reason many turn away from God. It was true in Jesus day also. (John 6:65-66) "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

Stranger

John Calvin came up with some new ideas that had never been heard of in the 1,500 years before him. Some new ideas are coming up today: The prosperity gospel; Easy believism; faith only. All these are new ideas that never existed before.

Regarding John 6:65-66. Why exactly were disciples turning away?
Look at verse 60
60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”

And what was the difficult statement? It's what Jesus had just been speaking about...it's verses 53-58

John 6:53-58
53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.58“This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

Just as the Romans believed Christians to be cannibals because they were heard to eat the flesh of a man, so many of the Jews who were listening to Jesus not understand what He meant and thought it sounded like cannibalism.

THIS is why some disciples left, just as Jesus knew they would. It had nothing to do with election.

God does NOT ELECT who will be saved and who will be lost. Elect means to choose...you're saying that God chooses some for salvation and some for hell. If this is what you mean, fine - if this is not what you mean you really should stop using that word.

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Whoever believes in the Son will be saved.
God reveals Himself to mankind, then WE decide whether to believe or not.
Revelation
Belief
Salvation

Romans 10:9-10

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not exactly sure what you are asking here. As to my initial salvation, I know I am saved because I have trusted in Christ. And He promised in (John 6:37) "...and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Stranger

Right.

But did God MAKE YOU believe in Him?
IOW, did GOD choose YOU? (you specifically).

Or did He reveal Himself to you, in whatever manner, and YOU made a conscious decision to become Christian, to believe in Him, to trust Him, IOW, did you accept Jesus at some point in your life? Was this a free will choice?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Why is it a wild goose chase. You asked for further explanation and I gave it. Then you ask why didn't I respond. Which means you were not paying attention cause you and rollo were playing silly games. Your attention was distracted. You can't help it.

Stranger

Hi everybody.
I'm glad to be here.

Stranger, is arguing over a doctrine that causes strife, is that what Jesus calls us to do?
Please explain the importance for any of us to know anything Calvin said about anything.
He was a role player in his time, bringing pagans together to worship God.
Thanks John Calvin.
But he said some things that may be wrong?
Oh well, I guess he's just like us.

Calvin was human like the rest of us.
His work is not Scripture itself.
He's not worth fighting over.

My joking around puts a smile on people's faces, makes them feel good.
Your seriousness causes strife in the hearts of everyone listening.
That would be okay if there was any value in it.
Is there?
Is there something about Calvinism that makes it okay to cause strife in the lives of other Christians?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi everybody.
I'm glad to be here.

Stranger, is arguing over a doctrine that causes strife, is that what Jesus calls us to do?
Please explain the importance for any of us to know anything Calvin said about anything.
He was a role player in his time, bringing pagans together to worship God.
Thanks John Calvin.
But he said some things that may be wrong?
Oh well, I guess he's just like us.

Calvin was human like the rest of us.
His work is not Scripture itself.
He's not worth fighting over.

My joking around puts a smile on people's faces, makes them feel good.
Your seriousness causes strife in the hearts of everyone listening.
That would be okay if there was any value in it.
Is there?
Is there something about Calvinism that makes it okay to cause strife in the lives of other Christians?

I believe that theology is either blasphemy, or very close to it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi everybody.
I'm glad to be here.

Stranger, is arguing over a doctrine that causes strife, is that what Jesus calls us to do?
Please explain the importance for any of us to know anything Calvin said about anything.
He was a role player in his time, bringing pagans together to worship God.
Thanks John Calvin.
But he said some things that may be wrong?
Oh well, I guess he's just like us.

Calvin was human like the rest of us.
His work is not Scripture itself.
He's not worth fighting over.

My joking around puts a smile on people's faces, makes them feel good.
Your seriousness causes strife in the hearts of everyone listening.
That would be okay if there was any value in it.
Is there?
Is there something about Calvinism that makes it okay to cause strife in the lives of other Christians?

Oh, and I just read about the silly games @Stranger mentioned.
They keep serious discussions light,,,some silly games are good.
They sure don't distract me!!

 

[Nancy]

If GOD chooses YOU,
how can you be SURE you're saved???

This IMO is where that elitism comes in for some-they call it irresistable Grace as they had no choice but TO come to Jesus (remember-no free will ) I've heard it claimed as a force so strong they had no choice BUT come, IOW God forces them to come-that's how they (think) know they alone are saved.

 

[Nancy]

Not everyone will be saved. Labeling it as corporate is to beat around the bush with it, whether you believe in predestination or not, it is in the Bible. The WHOLE WORLD will not be saved.

Um, yes...I think we KNOW that not everybody is saved...many-wide rd. few-narrow rd. I am talking about the I in cal. Irresistible grace-really??? and this is EXACTLY what comes of this bunk---a VERY small group of elitists who look down their noses at others who might be floundering, or has a limited understanding. All Men are called and, I have to be done here before I get heated and I do not want that...I'd rather be on the poetry thread.
peace

 

[Nancy]

Oh, and I just read about the silly games @Stranger mentioned.
They keep serious discussions light,,,some silly games are good.
They sure don't distract me!!

Same here Fran, some people are so staunch they can make a piece of coal into a diamond if they were to put it...n/m lol. I appreciate Rollo, he brings a smile to my face and laughter to my heart. Those who have no sense of humor, were as I like to say-baptized in lemon juice!!! LOL Let's rejoice in the Good News that is available to ALL who CHOOSE!!!! Amen?

 

[bbyrd009]

Consider this. The doctrine of election is one reason many turn away from God. It was true in Jesus day also.

a swing anna miss bro, sorry

Therefore said I unto you

"this is why i told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father draws them"

why?

 

[Stranger]

John Calvin came up with some new ideas that had never been heard of in the 1,500 years before him. Some new ideas are coming up today: The prosperity gospel; Easy believism; faith only. All these are new ideas that never existed before.

Regarding John 6:65-66. Why exactly were disciples turning away?
Look at verse 60
60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”

And what was the difficult statement? It's what Jesus had just been speaking about...it's verses 53-58

John 6:53-58
53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57“As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.58“This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

Just as the Romans believed Christians to be cannibals because they were heard to eat the flesh of a man, so many of the Jews who were listening to Jesus not understand what He meant and thought it sounded like cannibalism.

THIS is why some disciples left, just as Jesus knew they would. It had nothing to do with election.

God does NOT ELECT who will be saved and who will be lost. Elect means to choose...you're saying that God chooses some for salvation and some for hell. If this is what you mean, fine - if this is not what you mean you really should stop using that word.

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Whoever believes in the Son will be saved.
God reveals Himself to mankind, then WE decide whether to believe or not.
Revelation
Belief
Salvation

Romans 10:9-10

I did look at (John 6:60). And concerning eating His flesh, and drinking His blood, they did say this is a hard saying. But concerning what Christ said in (6:65), "no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father", is when "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

It has always been 'faith' only. Calvin didn't start that, God did. But, understand, our knowledge of the Bible hopefully grows. Does yours? Surely you know more today then when you first got saved. And, do you know everything in the Bible today? The Trinity did not become understood until the first couple of centuries A.D.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Right.

But did God MAKE YOU believe in Him?
IOW, did GOD choose YOU? (you specifically).

Or did He reveal Himself to you, in whatever manner, and YOU made a conscious decision to become Christian, to believe in Him, to trust Him, IOW, did you accept Jesus at some point in your life? Was this a free will choice?

No, God did not 'make me' as if it was against my will. And I have never said that. I have always said our will is involved. And I willingly came to Christ. None of which take away from God choosing you first. Because He did choose you He will reveal Himself to you to the degree of whatever it takes to affect your will. (Ps. 110:3) "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power...."

To someone like the apostle Paul, It could be said He literally did make him. Knocked him to the ground and blinded him for three days. All Paul could say was, 'who art thou Lord'. Paraphrased: "I don't know who you are but you're Lord whoever you are." And Paul was a 'chosen vessel'. (Acts 9:15-16)

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

Oh Ouch Nancy!! lol
So what did Paul mean when he said " Make your calling and election sure?"

Just those last votes needed to put me over the top in order to make my election sure. Without them I lose. What are votes?

Sometimes I feel like a am a long playing record. I will have to come up with a different term...many will soon not even know what a long playing record was!!

Anyway..Calling and Election has nothing to do with Salvation...but everything to do with " I go to prepare a place for you."

You are certain about that?

If we are not called how is it that we can ever move toward God? If we do not move toward how is it that can ever be saved?
As for the choosing... who is it that chooses?

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

But then...?

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." John 15:16

"Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:13-14

It would seem that God calls us [see I Sam 3:4-10] and then if we choose to respond and do so properly doing then which is needed to be chosen then He will choose us? His choosing us may also be a calling to a particular work or ministry, no?

Seemingly His choosing of us was not arbitrary?

Then again here we see something specifically added:

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Rev 17:14
Who is called? Who chooses Him? Who are chosen by Him? Who are the faithful ?
Who is elected? Does this mean chosen by Him?​

Paul was not afraid of losing his salvation, but was did not want to miss the mark...of the prize of the high calling in Christ. = his place.
Phil 3:14 "I press toward the mark, for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."
This has everything to do with Revelation 3.
The call to the overcomer's to overcome.

Remember what it says...?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

So then if we do not overcome so that we are not given to eat of the Tree of Life, will we not stop living?

What exactly is salvation? Saved from what or for what?

But, never mind, no worries, I have posted this so many times ...yet people are still so hung up with their salvation , and can see no further....
Time I quit and gave up on it, because it often frustrates me!!

I guess it is another one of those things where...a person either "sees it" and the lights come on, or they don't.

Bless you...H

You're still with us Helen because I also sometimes see things seemingly so clearly but then at another time I am so blind. Help us Lord!

We really do need to have "eyes to see"!

 

[amadeus]

Misunderstanding the other, i think, causes many of the divisions between us. We should always leave room for an opponent in a debate to clarify what they are saying before we rush to judgement...

Pax!

There are certainly divisions, but the very word, "opponent" hit me between the eyes as I read your post. We are or we become opponents, don't we? How far is it from opponent to enemy? How far is it from love to hate?

Your suggestion that we leave room for the other to clarify is good, but I guess too many are already enemies and are only listening in order to prepare their next attack. We need to be seriously praying when we in a debate [discussion?]. We need to pray that God will open our own hearts to as you say, "make room" for what the other guy is saying.

 

[amadeus]

All humans are elected.

Elected to die, certainly, but what else is so definite that we know? God may know exactly what our end is to be at our beginning, but we do not. Because He knows is it elected? That is, is it already decided? If it is, I would say that we are the ones who decided it, even if we have not decided it yet. This is where listening to our friend @ScottA might help us to understand.

Time bound people need help to understand a timeless God.

 

[Helen]

Why don't you take some time to study and digest this passage?
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another... (Rom 2:14,15)

If the unsaved and the heathen ("the Gentiles") can show the work of the Law (the Decalogue) written in their hearts, it means that they are frequently guided by their conscience (mentioned here).

While human beings are born with the sin nature inherited from Adam, it does not mean that all people are therefore continuously evil. The Calvinistic teaching of Total Depravity is a distortion of the truth, and you will never find a Calvinist even refer to Romans 2:14,15, let alone explain how it refutes total depravity. In fact all five points of TULIP are a distortion of the Gospel.

And the verse quoted from John 3:19 already explained that: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. So why are you ignoring that verse?

I've seen Calvinists make this a personal issue and ask this question. The fact is that many will respond to the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation) while the Holy Spirit (who is also the power of God) convicts and convinces. That's all you need to know, since that is what Scripture reveals.

1. The Bible tells us that Hell was created for the devil and his angels.
2. The Bible also tells us that creation reveals God, therefore all can put their faith in God.
3. The Bible tells us that the Gospel is to be preached to every creature, and that God commands all men everywhere to repent. Which means that He wants none to perish.

Therefore eternal torment can be avoided by all men, and no one is predestined for Hell (as taught by Calvinists and Reformed Theology).

Excellent post here. Well said.

 

[Nancy]

Just those last votes needed to put me over the top in order to make my election sure. Without them I lose. What are votes?


You are certain about that?

If we are not called how is it that we can ever move toward God? If we do not move toward how is it that can ever be saved?
As for the choosing... who is it that chooses?

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

But then...?

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." John 15:16

"Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt 22:13-14

It would seem that God calls us [see I Sam 3:4-10] and then if we choose to respond and do so properly doing then which is needed to be chosen then He will choose us? His choosing us may also be a calling to a particular work or ministry, no?

Seemingly His choosing of us was not arbitrary?

Then again here we see something specifically added:

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Rev 17:14
Who is called? Who chooses Him? Who are chosen by Him? Who are the faithful ?
Who is elected? Does this mean chosen by Him?​

Remember what it says...?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

So then if we do not overcome so that we are not given to eat of the Tree of Life, will we not stop living?

What exactly is salvation? Saved from what or for what?


You're still with us Helen because I also sometimes see things seemingly so clearly but then at another time I am so blind. Help us Lord!

We really do need to have "eyes to see"!

Very good, I enjoyed your post @amadeus
We really do need to have "eyes to see"! <---How about we all pray in agreement for this? Fervently, sincerely and from the heart? I love this forum and have made friends...well, at least I like to think they are my "friends" lol...no, not longtime close friends but, friends, sisters and brothers in Christ.
But, it seems anymore that we are no better than politics with all this splintering and division and vitriol. We are ALL capable of letting our anger get the best of us. And when I find myself getting to that point, I realize I can't even remember the OP! So, WHOMSOEVER (lol) comes across this post, say a prayer for (ALL)-sry, couldn't resist - of us here so we are obedient to His ultimate command to love each other.

-nancy

 

[amadeus]

Their magic underwear--snickers---

This reminds me of a true story about my maternal grandmother and Mormon underwear. Many years ago she was in a second hand store with my wife, my sister-in-law [my oldest brother's wife] and a couple of other female relatives. She saw there this strangely made garment and decided she wanted to buy it for herself. I really don't know why. It was one of those special bits of sacred or holy underwear the Mormons have. But my grandmother was really old school. She knew my sister-in-law was a Mormon but really had no idea what that meant. She really knew very little about Christians, much less Mormons, even though she had attended a few Protestant services over her many years.

When she lifted up that garment and declared her intention to buy it, my sister-in-law, a life long Mormon, according to my wife just about had a fit on the spot saying they were "holy" and should never have be put up for sale. 'No non-Mormon should ever be allowed to own them'.

My grandmother in her simple but blunt way asked loudly why in the world would anyone call their underwear holy? My wife and one of my aunts could not contain themselves and burst into laughter at my grandmother's question and how serious my sister-in-law was taking the whole thing.

 

[Nancy]

This reminds me of a true story about my maternal grandmother and Mormon underwear. Many years ago she was in a second hand store with my wife, my sister-in-law [my oldest brother's wife] and a couple of other female relatives. She saw there this strangely made garment and decided she wanted to buy it for herself. I really don't know why. It was one of those special bits of sacred or holy underwear the Mormons have. But my grandmother was really old school. She knew my sister-in-law was a Mormon but really had no idea what that meant. She really knew very little about Christians, much less Mormons, even though she had attended a few Protestant services over her many years.

When she lifted up that garment and declared her intention to buy it, my sister-in-law, a life long Mormon, according to my wife just about had a fit on the spot saying they were "holy" and should never have be put up for sale. 'No non-Mormon should ever be allowed to own them'.

My grandmother in her simple but blunt way asked loudly why in the world would anyone call their underwear holy? My wife and one of my aunts could not contain themselves and burst into laughter at my grandmother's question and how serious my sister-in-law was taking the whole thing.

Oh my, that is funny! Yet sad too. That woman was so entrenched her belief that the underwear was holy.