Eternal Security

[gadar perets]

But you are missing the lesson....there is NOTHING unclean of itself.

This is a quote of Romans 14:14 in which the Greek word is "koinon" meaning "common" as in Acts 10:14. It does not mean "unclean".

It isn't what goes into the body that defiles it (makes t unclean) but what we DO and SAY...these are the things that defile a person.

Mat. 15:11 A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but by what comes out of it.”

The context is eating clean food with dirty hands. It is not referring to eating unclean meat with dirty hands. Yeshua summed up his teaching by saying, "These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man." So again you have not rightly divided the Word.

 

[gadar perets]

Well you have done it over and over...so you can stop now...we have heard you.
You can stop now.

If it bothers you so much to hear the truth, then stop reading my posts.

 

[Episkopos]

This is a quote of Romans 14:14 in which the Greek word is "koinon" meaning "common" as in Acts 10:14. It does not mean "unclean".


The context is eating clean food with dirty hands. It is not referring to eating unclean meat with dirty hands. Yeshua summed up his teaching by saying, "These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man." So again you have not rightly divided the Word.

Amazing!

 

[GodsGrace]

I have no problem with believing in God and Christ which means I have absolute confidence and trust and complete surrender to Him. That is the obedience of faith. (Rom. 16:26) That we exercise when we place faith in Christ.

That does not mean 'obey' and 'belief' are the same words and have the same meaning. They don't. Belief occurs first in our heart and obedience follows. That is why we have the two different words. And that is why the Greek has two different words.

No, not all disobedience is caused by unbelief. Much is just caused by sin. The sin of unbelief will result in disobedience but one is first the other follows.



Stranger

Well, I see Jesus Himself could tell you something and you would refuse to understand it.

Belief occurs first and then obedience follows.
Let's leave it at that.

As to sin.... we disobey and that causes us to sin.

I'd like to hear "yes, we must obey God".... since it's the truth.

End.

 

[Stranger]

If it bothers you so much to hear the truth, then stop reading my posts.

It is not the truth that bothers. It is what you are saying that bothers.

Stranger

 

[Jun2u]

Belief occurs first and then obedience follows.
Let's leave it at that.

The problem is who initiated belief and obedience? Man? Impossible!!! Man by nature is dead in his sins and sold to Satan, therefore; will NEVER, NEVER seek after God (Romans 10-11).

In fact God initiated belief and obedience by drawing the elect (believers, chosen) to Himself (John 6:44)!

As to sin.... we disobey and that causes us to sin.

There is a difference between disobedience and “there is NONE righteous NO, NOT ONE.”

I suggest you restudy your whole concept of your belief system of the Bible because it is NOT according to Scripture!!!

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

To God Be The Glory

 

[GodsGrace]

The problem is who initiated belief and obedience? Man? Impossible!!! Man by nature is dead in his sins and sold to Satan, therefore; will NEVER, NEVER seek after God (Romans 10-11).

In fact God initiated belief and obedience by drawing the elect (believers, chosen) to Himself (John 6:44)!



There is a difference between disobedience and “there is NONE righteous NO, NOT ONE.”

I suggest you restudy your whole concept of your belief system of the Bible because it is NOT according to Scripture!!!

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

To God Be The Glory

Calvinism is not biblical. It does not teach the nature of God.
Anyone who can serve a God such as the one you believe in must certainly be reading scripture incorrectly.

Do you think it took J Calvin in 1,500 AD to figure out that God is an unloving and unjust God? No other theologian before Him saw this in scripture?!

I believe Calvinism is blasphemous.


How God Draws People Unto Himself?


John 6:45

The context of Jesus' statement explains how God draws men and women to Himself. There is nothing mystical about it. The following verse in the context (John 6:45) reveals how God draws men unto Himself. "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." Note the words "taught" and "every man" (all drawn the same way; by being taught) and "hear" and "learn" and "come". These are not mystical words. They are common, everyday words which are used to describe how it is that people are drawn to Christ.


2 Thessalonians 2:14

What is it that is taught and heard and learned? The means or method by which God "calls'' or "draws'' all men is the Gospel. "And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (II Thessalonians 2:14). There is no special, mystical anointing of the Holy Spirit, but rather, the Holy Spirit calls men through the gospel; and it is the gospel that is the power (Romans 1:16).

(from my notes)

 

[Stranger]

Well, I see Jesus Himself could tell you something and you would refuse to understand it.

Belief occurs first and then obedience follows.
Let's leave it at that.

As to sin.... we disobey and that causes us to sin.

I'd like to hear "yes, we must obey God".... since it's the truth.

End.

Yes, it is true. We find it in (Ex. 19:5) "If you will obey" And the people of Israel agreed. (Ex. 19:8) "And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do." Sounds good, right? I mean that is the truth we should obey God always, right?

Then later in (Ex. 24) after the Mosaic covenant was explained by Moses, the people again said, in (Ex. 24:7), "...All that the LORD hath said will we do and be obedient. Don't you love that word 'obedient? But what does Moses say in (Ex. 24:8) " Behold the blood".

Why does Moses say 'behold the blood'? Because you're going to need it. Because he knows and God knows they cannot keep their word. You want to shout obey, obey, obey. It sounds good and is true. Yet it is not the truth. The truth is we can't make it. We can't keep it. But God makes up for us by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

Why does Moses say 'behold the blood'? Because you're going to need it. Because he knows and God knows they cannot keep their word. You want to shout obey, obey, obey. It sounds good and is true. Yet it is not the truth. The truth is we can't make it. We can't keep it. But God makes up for us by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Stranger

Good point and well said.
Saying that "we must obey" is like saying ...we can keep new years resolutions ...or even keep our wedding vows to love...our flesh lets us down every time.
So yes indeed..."We behold the Blood.."
And as John the Baptist said " Behold the Lamb..."

 

[Nancy]

I believe you will find that people don't "hate" because you believe differently. What they/we/I object to, is you trying to impose your beliefs on us!!

You say that you are right and we are wrong.
So just enjoy your "rightness" and leave us alone to enjoy ours... but you don't. You nag.

BTW what has all this got to do with the OP eternal security!!!
This thread has gone sideways.

"BTW what has all this got to do with the OP eternal security!!!
This thread has gone sideways."
I know Helen, and I am sitting in sack cloth and ashes, as I too am complicit in trashing poor Rollo's OP

 

[Nancy]

The natural branches (natural Israelites) were cut off from Israel, but will be grafted back into Israel if they believe. Gentile believers are already grafted into Israel. Eventually, believing Jews and Gentiles will all dwell together as the "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16). If you choose to not be part of the "Israel of God" so be it. If you do choose to be part of it, then live by Israel's laws as Yeshua did.


Yes, the Sabbath is a separate covenant from the Old Covenant. It is for "Israel" which I just showed you includes all Gentile believers that were grafted in. The "Church" was grafted into the natural olive tree of Israel. We become part of the "Israel of God".


Yes, he was a false prophet. I am not a Millerite or a SDA. Nor am I a JW who also have their own false prophets.

I wonder if you would mind editing post # 833 please? You quote me as saying something YOU actually said "Nancy said: ↑
"No, I am not Jewish, but I am an Israelite as are you. Were you not grafted into the natural olive tree of Israel? Are you Abraham's seed through Yeshua? Then you are also Isaac's seed and Jacob's (Israel's) seed."
Thanks

 

[Helen]

"BTW what has all this got to do with the OP eternal security!!!
This thread has gone sideways."
I know Helen, and I am sitting in sack cloth and ashes, as I too am complicit in trashing poor Rollo's OP

Haha! "sack cloth and ashes" indeed ...I have head that phrase elsewhere.

Well we all know that if threads are 'kept" on track they are destined to go sideways.
Rollo is not here, so I guess he doesn't care much LOL

 

[Nancy]

Haha! "sack cloth and ashes" indeed ...I have head that phrase elsewhere.

Well we all know that if threads are 'kept" on track they are destined to go sideways.
Rollo is not here, so I guess he doesn't care much LOL

I think he is sulking, lol. Or, he just doesn't like us anymore

 

[Nancy]

Haha! "sack cloth and ashes" indeed ...I have head that phrase elsewhere.

Well we all know that if threads are 'kept" on track they are destined to go sideways.
Rollo is not here, so I guess he doesn't care much LOL

"I have head that phrase elsewhere. " Yeah, from yourself! Lol

 

[gadar perets]

I wonder if you would mind editing post # 833 please? You quote me as saying something YOU actually said "Nancy said: ↑
"No, I am not Jewish, but I am an Israelite as are you. Were you not grafted into the natural olive tree of Israel? Are you Abraham's seed through Yeshua? Then you are also Isaac's seed and Jacob's (Israel's) seed."
Thanks

Done. That happened because you quoted me in post 830 without attributing the quote to me.

 

[Nancy]

Done. That happened because you quoted me in post 830 without attributing the quote to me.

Oh, did not notice. Sorry!

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, it is true. We find it in (Ex. 19:5) "If you will obey" And the people of Israel agreed. (Ex. 19:8) "And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do." Sounds good, right? I mean that is the truth we should obey God always, right?

Then later in (Ex. 24) after the Mosaic covenant was explained by Moses, the people again said, in (Ex. 24:7), "...All that the LORD hath said will we do and be obedient. Don't you love that word 'obedient? But what does Moses say in (Ex. 24:8) " Behold the blood".

Why does Moses say 'behold the blood'? Because you're going to need it. Because he knows and God knows they cannot keep their word. You want to shout obey, obey, obey. It sounds good and is true. Yet it is not the truth. The truth is we can't make it. We can't keep it. But God makes up for us by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Stranger

Here it is Stranger:

You're speaking about the Mosaic Covenant and
the New Covenant.

Do this: Tell me the difference between the two Covenants?
I mean the BASIC difference.

IOW, do you believe the New Covenant declares we are not obligated to obey the law?

If the answer is yes, explain why.
If the answer is no, explain why.

I've stated many times what the difference is...
Could you please do this so I could understand you better?
I do believe that herein lies the problem... (maybe not).

 

[Stranger]

Here it is Stranger:

You're speaking about the Mosaic Covenant and
the New Covenant.

Do this: Tell me the difference between the two Covenants?
I mean the BASIC difference.

IOW, do you believe the New Covenant declares we are not obligated to obey the law?

If the answer is yes, explain why.
If the answer is no, explain why.

I've stated many times what the difference is...
Could you please do this so I could understand you better?
I do believe that herein lies the problem... (maybe not).

The basic difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant is that the New Covenant is not between God and you or me. It is between The Father and the Son. the Mosaic Covenant was between God and Israel.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

The basic difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant is that the New Covenant is not between God and you or me. It is between The Father and the Son. the Mosaic Covenant was between God and Israel.

Stranger

Huh?

Every covenant God made was with man.
In some covenants man had a part -- this was a bilateral covenant.
In some covenants man had no part -- this was a unilateral covenant.

You're saying God made a covenant with Himself?

No. This is not the difference. This is why obedience is not understood by some...not only you. This is why grace is not understood well.

This is the difference: Take it or leave it:

In the Mosaic Covenant man was required to obey the law but had no power to.
In the New Covenant man is still required to obey the MORAL law but now has the power to by the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.

The Mosaic Covenant was bi-lateral. Man had his part to play because he had been living in slavery for almost 400 years and had forgotten about any type of law; so ceremonial and civil and moral laws were given so that the Israelites could become a civil nation again.

The New Covenant was uni-lateral. God was going to accomplish what He wanted to do without man's agreement or input. He was going to send the Holy Spirit so that each man could learn from Him and so that each man could have the Holy Spirit walking beside him and dwelling within him so he could be empowered to keep the MORAL law (the other two have been abolished). NO WHERE in the N.T. does it say the moral law has been abolished. ALL the writers exhort us to live a morally correct life, which is now possible with God's help.

See Jeremiah 31:31-34
31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

[BobRyan]

To all,

Why, do you still entertain @gadar perets and those who are in agreement with his false doctrines? Do all not realize that you are participating in their evil deeds?

I’ve had dealings with @gadar concerning the Sabbath and the Deity of Christ in the past to no avail. I stopped communicating with him because of the ominous warning found in 2 John 1:9-11, which reads:
9) Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10) If there come any unto you, and bring NOT this doctrine , receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

And, Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, brings home this point in Galatians 1:8-12:

8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10) For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ
11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

You see, we cannot understand the Gospel unless the Holy Spirit opens our spiritual eyes.

Words in bold and parenthesis for emphasis.

To God Be The Glory

First of all I would not want to in any way say anything negative about your choice not to debate with @gadar - but in your quote of 2John 1:9-11 -- it is a case of John condemning fellow believers who were steeped in error. But remember at the time John is writing - Christianity is viewed as a "sect" of Judaism. The people being condemned are not unbelieving non-Christian Jews but rather Christians within that same "sect".

So if you belong to some denomination - it would be like someone within your own denomination coming to your local congregation and asking for a platform to speak or for support in some other way - who believes as does @gadar. That seems to be the most applicable place for the 2 John 1 statement above.

Because if you draw the circle for application to include "between denominations" then no one can debate with anyone about anything on this board without viewing it as support the opposing doctrine or something forbidden.