Helen
Well-Known Member
- Oct 22, 2011
- 15,471
- 21,160
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Canada
Against all odds
- Thread starter djstav
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Helen
Well-Known Member
- Oct 22, 2011
- 15,471
- 21,160
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Canada
I believe that after *the two great commandments ...then I add*
1 Cor 13. All about love...and includes " Love never fails"
I also believe that when God comes looking for fruit when we all stand before Him ( we know it is our works which will be tested,)
* 1 Cor 3
13 Every man's work ( the work we were told by Jesus to do was "Love" ) shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
If love never fails...then "to me" love abides the fire...and it is the fruit God will be looking for.
I like to think that Father comes looking in us for a refection of Himself... 1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. "
That is what I believe. Love transcends all things...divisions and boundaries ....
Which is the very nature of God Himself.
Helen
" Truth is not a principle to be tested; but rather, it is a Person to be trusted. " I love this quote!
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,970
- 1,796
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Thank you Amadeus. :)
I agree with you that there is only one Truth. What I can decipher from your statements is that no one person or group of persons (Luther, Calvin, Marymog, Ignatious, Amadeus, Catholic Church, Baptist Church, Mormons, Pentecostals etc.) will ever have the complete truth revealed to them because of delusions or they just haven't grown enough or their vision/understanding hasn't improved enough. It seems you are saying that everyone might have a portion of the Truth but no one person or group has the complete Truth? Is that a fair assessment of what you believe?
If we (humans) can never completely know the Truth (or what is true) then how can we be sure that the 27 books of the NT are the correct books OR the correct number of books?
What I can decipher from your response to my questions is that you don't think that you will always get it right and that you are always growing. Furthermore to keep yourself out of delusion or the way you get yourself out of a delusional mindset you "go to the lowest room with God and let Him elevate you if He chooses to do so". And you further believe "if we elevate ourselves, we are likely to end up demoted instead".
I respect your humility. What I don't understand is how you know WHEN to go to the lowest room? Does a feeling come over your entire body? Does someone you trust approach you and tell you that you need to go to the lowest room because you are saying/doing incorrect things (acting delusional)?
How do you KNOW when God has elevated you and you have not deceived yourself in your delusional mindset and elevated yourself? If you are in a delusional state when you go to the lowest room is it possible in your delusion you elevated yourself and thought that God did it?
The answer to your question is that yes, Jesus did grow. In Luke 2:52 he was a child (12 years old) so, in the eyes of men around him at the temple, he grew in wisdom and stature because they were astonished at his understanding and answers to their questions at such a young age. It wasn't necessarily that Jesus was growing in wisdom over his entire life. In the eyes of men, in that moment, he grew because they did not know Him until that moment in the temple. Once we put Luke 2:52 in context it seems to water down your out of context use of it.
I don't see where I Cor 13:12 has ANYTHING to do with "growth".....but I digress.
You PARTIALLY QUOTED Prov 29:18 to fit your interpretation. Here is all of it IN CONTEXT: Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he. As you can see once it is quoted in context it doesn't fit your growth theory. It has to do with keeping the law.
I look forward to you response.
Respectfully, Mary
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,970
- 1,796
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Thank you. I may be misunderstanding you. An answer to this question may clear it up....Please be patient with me....
The Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Westboro Baptist Church etc. love Jesus. Do they love the truth?
Mary
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,970
- 1,796
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Thank you Nancy.
It is your belief that @amadeus is saying that if I am honestly seeking the truth the Holy Spirit knows I am being honest and He will lead me to the Truth. That seems like a fair interpretation of what he said. I don't need to decipher that.....:)
That creates question: If all of us who are honestly seeking the Truth (which are billions of us) are being guided by the Holy Spirit then why is the Holy Spirit guiding us to so many different "Truths" in our interpretation of the same line of scripture?
Who decides which Church, prophet or teacher is producing good or bad fruit? Who/what is the governing authority on that?
EVERY person who started a new Church/denomination or who sits in their basement reading scripture instead of going to Church believes they have honestly and humbly sought His face and made Him first in ALL things. Yet they all came up with a different version of the Truth while reading from the same scriptures. It seems to me like it's a little more complicated than you are making it. Don't you think we should get it right since our salvation depends on it?
You said that satan has splintered the Church and suggested that we could be one and on the same road that leads to the Truth. That means at one time the Church wasn't splintered. Historically, when did that first splinter occur in your estimation? How do we get back to being/speaking as one and on the same road?
Respectfully, Mary
Last edited:
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,970
- 1,796
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Thank you BG! We'd all do well to remember that scripture calls Jesus more than the Truth. Therefore some bible study is in order. How about if we quote ALL of the line in scripture that calls Jesus the Truth instead of just acting like he is ONLY Truth: I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
All of them (Baptist, Catholics, Mormons, Islam's) have trusted Jesus to give them The Truth because ALL of them believe he is the WAY and the LIFE. All of them think that the other is wrong in their way to 'cometh unto the Father'.
ALL of them ALSO believe they have the Truth even though they all speak different truths.
Soooooo who's WAY do you choose or love the most? Yours? Mine? The Baptist? Catholics? Mormons? Islam's??
Mary
Helen
Well-Known Member
- Oct 22, 2011
- 15,471
- 21,160
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Canada
Well Mary...as we all stand before the Lord...We really don't have to worry about anyone else's walk, life, or truth...we are only answerable for our own.
So often we get looking over the wall into someone else's Vineyard..and we neglect the weeds in our own Vineyard ...( Song Of Solomon)
Blessings...Helen
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,970
- 1,796
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Thanks Helen. I thought you were saying God will ONLY measure us on how much love we have for Him and for our neighbor. I agree with you that he will measure our WORKS also.
Mary
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,970
- 1,796
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Thank you.
When you stand before the Lord you will be accountable for yourself. I NEVER said you would be accountable for anyone else.
I asked you which one you choose and I included YOU in that choice. Since you didn't choose yourself does that mean you do not believe you have found the Truth on your own with no help from a Church? You don't even trust what you have convinced yourself to be true?
Mary
(bold is emphasis, not yelling) :)
Helen
Well-Known Member
- Oct 22, 2011
- 15,471
- 21,160
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Canada
Oh for sure...I've been a believer for 54 years now...so yet..obviously I believe that what I hold , is the truth as much as I can gauge.
But it is the foolish man who believed that he has arrived at "all truth".
I have said many times on this site...anyone who says that they have "all the truth" and that they have all doctrine correct...is a fool.
As Paul says..." we see in part, we know, in part, we speak , in part..but when..." Cor 13.
TOGETHER we have it all, no one person has it all...that is why God set us all"Into the Body of Christ"...
Blessings...Helen
"That creates question: If all of us who are honestly seeking the Truth (which are billions of us) are being guided by the Holy Spirit then why is the Holy Spirit guiding us to so many different "Truths" in our interpretation of the same line of scripture? "
Tough question, and I think you answered it in your last paragraph. Some Christians say they are truly seeking the truth but seem to ignore the "truths" in the Gospel and epistles that they do not like. So, if they do not LOVE the whole truth, then they blind themselves and eventually believe the lie. Do you think that God will reveal the Truth of a matter to a person when He deems it necessary? So, My thoughts are that there are many who PROCLAIM to be seeking His face but, are hearers rather than doers and if one does not accept the WHOLE truth, then I would say it makes the truth they do know to no affect.
"Who decides which Church, prophet or teacher is producing good or bad fruit? Who/what is the governing authority on that?"
I would say that every Christian no matter the office they hold in the traditional Church, should be accountable to each other. If we see our brother or sister living in sin, are we not to approach them in love to correct with scripture? If something someone does or does not do, as a Christian, unless it points to Jesus, I find their fruit lacking. I know it is not always easy, and I also know there was a part or two in the bible I did not want to see as truth back in the day...it's no wonder I did not grow at that time. Since then, just the act of total surrender has changed my life completely.
"EVERY person who started a new Church/denomination or who sits in their basement reading scripture instead of going to Church believes they have honestly and humbly sought His face and made Him first in ALL things. Yet they all came up with a different version of the Truth while reading from the same scriptures. It seems to me like it's a little more complicated than you are making it. Don't you think we should get it right since our salvation depends on it?"
As far as salvation is concerned, God knows who are His and, I cannot answer your question any further than that, lol. Then, we have to question:
""EVERY person who started a new Church/denomination or who sits in their basement reading scripture instead of going to Church believes they have honestly and humbly sought His face and made Him first in ALL things."
How are we even able to know for a fact that "every" person who did/does those things truly are seeking? Some might just think they are. Too much complication for a Gospel that should be so simple that even a child could understand. Doctrine is what seems to split so many but, far as I am concerned, we will never, on this earth, be one as a Church. Only when all is said and done. I can only ask Him to continually show me MY sin, my error, and use the faith He has given me. And, be ever grateful for ALL things ♥
I heard/read a statement that went something like this: "The bible is like a violin that plays many tunes, some Baptist, some Methodists, some Catholic, etc."
Doctrine is important but not to the detriment of keeping our eyes on them more so than Christ.
Doctrine is important but not to the detriment of keeping our eyes on them more so than Christ.
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,970
- 1,796
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Thanks Helen...
I have never said that "a man" can arrive at "all truth". I have only repeated what scripture says: THE CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth.
If, as you seem to believe, everyone has a piece of the truth and TOGETHER we all have THE TRUTH that means we really can't KNOW the truth. If 5 of us meet in a room and each of us has our own "truth" that means there is no truth because your "truth" is just as valid as mine........ UNLESS there was a deciding authority (like the Supreme Court) to decide which one of us 5 has the Truth. Scripture and YOUR Christian history says that authority is The Church.
Using your logic wouldn't that mean we can't even know for sure if we got the correct 27 books to interpret that Truth from? After all, it wasn't until 300+ years after the death of Christ that they finally agreed on the 27 books that are in the NT. They debated over MULTIPLE other writings/letters that they thought should go into the NT.
I can't find any correlation with Cor 13 and what we are talking about.
However, as you know, scripture does say there will be false teachers and people who twist scripture. Men will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching and they will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. Don't those passages suggest that we will KNOW what a true doctrine is and who the true teachers are? If we know what is false, doesn't that mean we know what is true?
Scripture also tells us how to handle people who won't listen too The Church. Doesn't that passage suggest there is an authority on these matters?
Mary
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,970
- 1,796
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Thank you.
Based on your response to question #1 it seems you are saying that there are a lot of Christians who are PROCLAIMING to be seeking his face...but they really aren't (which means they are a liar) and that they are hearers rather than doers. It seems you are saying that those "Christians" can't be trusted to properly interpret scripture. So out of the billions of "Christians" we can now eliminate most of them using your logic. So lets say there are now only 5,000 (arbitrary number) left that are not liars and they are doers...not just hearers. They meet your standard. Of those 5,000 do you think all of them will agree on scripture? Do you believe you are one of those 5,000?
For question #2 I agree with you that if we see our brother or sister living in sin I am to approach them in love and correct with them with scripture. If they disagree with me I am to go get 2-3 others and talk to them. If they still disagree with the 3-4 of us we are to take it to the Church....Just like scripture says. That is the part you left out of your answer...that is the governing authority.
#3 I never asked you if you KNOW who is going to be saved. I asked you: Don't you think we should get it right since our salvation depends on it?"
#4 We don't know for a fact that those people who started a new denomination were truly seeking. The point I was making, in context with the entire paragraph, was that it's a little more complicated than you are making it out to be.
You don't think Jesus prayer in John 17:21 will be fulfilled? I wonder if God has ever refused to answer a prayer of Jesus?
Mary
That everyone has a portion of truth is an indefinite since I don't know everyone nor even every church group. I believe that they all have a portion, but until I have it all myself how complete is my knowledge likely to be about others.
I did not say that we cannot completely know the truth. I was saying that for the most part from what I am able to understand we do not. What I believe is that everyone who believes God's message to man at all has a mixture of belief and knowledge. The problem is that we don't always know which parts we only believe [possibly in error] and which parts we know [from God and without error]. As to the books Bible, to me they are dead alone anyway even they were written under God's inspiration. The Life comes to what we have consumed [read or heard] when within us they [words ] they are quickened by the Holy Spirit. When they are then it would be better described as Word rather than word. As to the correct number of books, I can only repeat what I have read or heard from people. God has not let me know that there is a correct or incorrect number. Since without the quickening they are dead anyway, what difference would it make?
When I am not led by the Holy Spirit with regard to the things of God then I am quite likely to be in error. When I am led by the Holy Spirit perfectly I am never wrong. The difficulty for me and anyone, I believe, comes when we quench the Holy Spirit in us. If we had the Holy Spirit in us and never quenched that Spirit and always followed the lead of the Spirit we would never be in error. Are there people who are never in error continuously? To my knowledge I haven't met such an overcomer but then if I had met one but God did not reveal it to me, how would I know?
I try to go the lowest room everyday. [Yes, I have failed to do this, but we serve a merciful God who does not leave us with no recourse because of a single failure.] In the lowest room I ask that God keep me during the times when I have to be minding other things, especially secular things.
The one that I trust and that tells me I need to go to the lowest room is God. If we are His sheep are we not hearing His voice?
If are walking regularly with God and paying attention to His voice, will we not hear His warnings to us?
If we are to be like him [I John 3:2] do we not similarly need to grow? Jesus was the Word of God, but what he lacked when he took the form of a man of flesh was the personal experience of a man walking through the temptations of a man. He went through those experience overcoming them all without sinning.
To ever really become like him, we must be moved up to where he started. His sacrifice paid the price we could not pay. The sacrifice was to be uncorrupted. We could not qualify because all of us were already corrupted when we first met Him. Next we needed to overcome the world as Jesus did. For this written scriptures and the Holy Ghost have been provided so we had the means to accomplish that which otherwise was for us impossible.
What do you think "eyes to see" are? What is it we are to see? How about the face of God. Moses asked to see the glory of God and was told that no man could see God's face and live. Yet, see what the apostle Paul wrote:
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
He was speaking of that which Moses had wanted to see but even Moses that humble man of God was only allowed to see the back parts [Exodus 33] of God. This is our "though a glass, darkly". But the "face to face" is for "then". Perhaps the "then" is when we have become like Him [I John 3:2] and are to see Him as He is.
Our vision is to grow from seeing "through a glass darkly" to seeing "face to face".
"Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he. " Prov 29:18
I usually only partially quote the verse because to cite the whole thing opens up a can of worms about the "law" which as you know from your experience on this forum alone is for some people a large can. The "people" [of Prov 29:18] are God's people, be they natural Israelites following Moses or sons of God or Holy Ghost filled brethren. All of them, OT or NT, should be following David's lead according to what God told him to do:
"When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek." Psalm 27:8 Was this not the same face which Moses was not allowed to see earlier...?
Considering that Solomon wrote that Proverb [29] about a thousand years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem we can probably correctly assume that the "law" was the law which God had given to Moses, but like nearly all, or all, OT verses God's message to the people living in that time contained a message for you and me today as well. What was the law to them was what was written on the two stones tablets, but did God have no law for you and for me today as well? God does not change, so ultimately is He not also speaking through Solomon's writings to us even as He did through Apostle Paul did here?
"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" Rom 2:14-15
When it is written in our hearts, so that we are able by the power of the Holy Ghost able to keep it how happy are we?
Last edited:
Do I know their hearts? Do you? When you seek to make criticism or judgment against them consider what Jesus said here:Thank you. I may be misunderstanding you. An answer to this question may clear it up....Please be patient with me....
The Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Westboro Baptist Church etc. love Jesus. Do they love the truth?
Mary
"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48
In short he is saying, "much is given... much [is] required...". The judgment of every man is based on what he has done with what God has given him. Because only God knows all of these things for each of us... along perhaps with anyone with whom He may have shared some of that knowledge...???
Do we have more knowledge of truth than any of those you mention? Perhaps but on a case by case basis of the individuals belonging to each group, how much do we know about what is in each heart?
If we really have more than they do then will not God require more from us than He would from them? If we have a better holy book or a better church or a better education or more time, will He not require more from us than them? And so forth...
@Marymog in all your questions, challenges, and responses, it appears to me you are leading people to come to what you deem to be the only logical conclusion... Accept the doctrinal teachings of the RCC and you will not be deceived.
In doing this you are ignoring what others are trying you, and what you are pretending to uphold. That JESUS, the very person of the Son of God, is the Truth. Everyone here is saying "come to Him", while in your typical round about convolutions, you are saying"come to Rome". Sorry, but Rome does not not can it ever be the representative or earthly replacement for knowing the Father and the Son.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal: that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou didst send."
In doing this you are ignoring what others are trying you, and what you are pretending to uphold. That JESUS, the very person of the Son of God, is the Truth. Everyone here is saying "come to Him", while in your typical round about convolutions, you are saying"come to Rome". Sorry, but Rome does not not can it ever be the representative or earthly replacement for knowing the Father and the Son.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal: that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou didst send."
Oh, @Marymog let me add this. Everyone else has upheld the above scripture from John17:3, in that they have constantly promoted their personal relationship with Christ and their adherence to His promise that He would not forsake not leave them, as their defense against error. His promise that the holy Spirit would lead them into truth is a promise. You however seek to cast doubt into our minds as to the efficacy of that promise. Regardless of whether or not we all agree, this does not negate the promises of God. We are all at different stages of growth and understanding. Who are you to cast doubt on the promises of God word? Who are you to cast doubt on our relationship with our Saviour? You are rising the word of your apostate leader from several years ago, when he said that people ought never to trust in their relationship with Christ outside of the Catholic church. What lies.
And you claim not to like incomplete quotes. I would like to point out the reason people grasp to themselves teachers having itching ears. It is because they follow after their own lusts. You left that out in your paraphrase. It is because of selfishness that people refuse to consider sound doctrine. You may do well to reflect upon that are you uphold your church above Christ himself.
And you claim not to like incomplete quotes. I would like to point out the reason people grasp to themselves teachers having itching ears. It is because they follow after their own lusts. You left that out in your paraphrase. It is because of selfishness that people refuse to consider sound doctrine. You may do well to reflect upon that are you uphold your church above Christ himself.
Last edited by a moderator:
Well, you asked questions and, I can only give my opinion because there seems to BE no answer to your questions. I left nothing out as I was not quoting the specific scripture. Maybe somebody else more, "learned" can answer these seemingly impossible questions.
BTW-our salvation depends on what Jesus Christ did on the cross for us, and we receive it with grace through faith. I don't care what anybody interprets their pet doctrines as, so long as the Gospel is preached!
Similar threads
