The Problem With The Trinity

[gadar perets]

Gadar, I have noted in the past that when someone calls the Holy Spirit "it", they have not met the Spirit yet.

Would you be willing to think about the possibility that maybe you have not met Him yet? That there is something more for you here on earth? And that if you ask, as Jesus said, you will receive?

I'm not saying admit that I am right. I am asking you to admit the possibility that there is something you are still missing/ lacking.

Are you familiar with personification? Any personal attributes of the Holy Spirit are those of the Father and/or Son, both of whom I met. However, the Spirit is basically the power and influence of the Father.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Are you familiar with personification? Any personal attributes of the Holy Spirit are those of the Father and/or Son, both of whom I met. However, the Spirit is basically the power and influence of the Father.

God is Spirit. God the Father is Spirit. We are told the word is spirit because God is Spirit. So God IS the Holy Spirit. In my mind anyway...

 

[APAK]

I guess it makes sense to me because I know that God is Spirit. He also came in human flesh form where if you saw Jesus He said you HAVE seen the Father. Jesus is also The Word and I know Gods word is Spirit because HE is Spirit, as the verse says. So if God the father is Spirit, is there another Spirit besides God who is the Holy Spirit? At least that's how my mind processes it. But honestly, whether I say Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit, I am just basically saying ...God. My mind doesn't divide them from each other. They are all just God to me.

I know it's impossible for me to think too separately about each of them, but I won't argue with someone who says the Holy Spirit is not God or Jesus isn't God, but it does perplex me because we are to worship no one but God yet in heaven, as Revelation says, they bow down and worship the Lamb. And the Lamb/Jesus never says: see that you don't do it because I'm only a man...

stunnedbygrace:

There are a few statements you wrote that you may want to review that I know with sufficient prayer and patience you can better understand them. Don’t give up now, I congratulate you for believing that God our Father is actually the Holy Spirt and there is no extra spirit roaming around.

You said, “He also came in human flesh form where if you saw Jesus He said you HAVE seen the Father.”

And then you said, “But honestly, whether I say Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit, I am just basically saying ...God…. “

Now when Jesus was growing up, he was developing a personality like his Father. His thoughts, mannerisms, actions and words from the Father became his own. Jesus eventually possessed the full and complete image or what his Father could supply him, as humanly possible. After his baptism, Jesus possesses all the personality of his Father and became the perfect image of him as a human being. Now Jesus still a human being was transformed over time into the perfect personality of God as if God was a human, which of course is impossible.

If you were a male human living and surrounded by your natural Father, day in and day out ,this closeness eventually would rub off on you and you develop many of the traits and tendencies of your Father; even as a female of course. The same occurred with Jesus, although his Father was living on the inside of Jesus as the Spirit bonded with him. God did not take a form of a human being or any other form to teach Jesus. His Father showed him possibly as mental images when necessary on how to act etc. Jesus did say he did was he saw his Father do. He lived as his Father from within his own spirit. This is the most difficult thing that most people do not grasp or want to comprehend and just cut the thought process off at this point and say, well Jesus was the same as his Father therefore Jesus = God. And of course, this is not the case at all. Jesus was always a human being with one sinless human nature possessed or bound together with his Father in spirit.

So, when Jesus said if you see me you are seeing or have seen the Father, then of course it is true. Jesus fully personified his Father as the human being he was, not a divine being or some other combo.

You said, “My mind doesn't divide them from each other. They are all just God to me. “

It is extremely important that we divide ‘them up’ and not combine them as one being. We have to get the 'right' Jesus and the 'right' Father, right!?

In heaven we bow down to Jesus as our Lord, ruler and master, although he is not the Father that always is worshipped.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

and is a man practicing and teaching the commands if he says, don't murder, thinking anger in the heart is not murder? If he teaches that obeying the Sabbath rest is by the letter but thinks worrying about money is not a breaking of the Sabbath rest? How has his righteousness exceeded the righteousness of a pharisee? Isn't he doin g and teaching exactly as they did?

good Qs, imo "if" is a big word there, and these have been covered already, they are basically a subject change i think, and i might add "do the one and don't neglect the other" in here somewhere. Ppl--well, believers anyway--are quite confused about the definition of "law" i guess, and try to drag ancient Israeli civil code into the mix, when we have our own civil codes (based upon the Decalogue, too) that apply to us already, i responded bc i saw this being done here, Decalogue conflated with Israeli Civil Code. Jesus did not break the Sabbath Commandment, He broke the Sabbath Law, would then be a possible premise there iow

Okay I'm glad for your sake that that is clarified.

um, shouldn't i be saying that to you?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

stunnedbygrace:


In heaven we bow down to Jesus as our Lord, ruler and master, although he is not God who always is worshipped.


APAK

Maybe you need to look closer at this, above, in light of the 24 elders falling down and worshiping the Lamb.

 

[APAK]

Maybe you need to look closer at this, above, in light of the 24 elders falling down and worshiping the Lamb.

Well I’m a bit disappointed that you do not what to know the right Jesus and the right Father as you have thrown in a verse from the Book of Revelation that is quoted inaccurately, hoping it would shut me up? Ignorance is surely bliss, indeed.

(Rev 5:8) And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Now the elders fell down in honor and deep respect for Jesus' new authority given to him by his Father. It was the Father’s wish that gave Jesus his esteemed position with authority over heaven and earth.

The 24 elders were handing Jesus the prayers of saints as Jesus had the authority and power to respond to them. He had the power now!! No one else had this power and authority. They never WORSHIPPED Jesus as you have seen fit to include; as your killer blow I suspect. Again, they knew where the authority laid, it was with Jesus given by his Father.

Remember who gave Jesus this position. Of course, Jesus did not give him this title to himself. He is called the lamb because he was the sacrifice and redeemer. Jesus earned this title through is death with his blood.

Yes, you will find several other verses that imply worship of Jesus or explicitly have the word ‘worship’ ‘added in err. It is never true worship. We worship the Father, always.

I think you might want to look a little closer to who is worshipped and who is paid deep respect and honor to…..

As it says in the following,

(Mat 4:10) Then said Jesus to him: Away with you Satan! For it is written: You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.

(Joh 4:21) Jesus said to her: Woman, believe me, the hour is coming, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the Father.

(Joh 4:21) Jesus said to her: Woman, believe me, the hour is coming, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you worship the Father.

(Joh 4:24) God is Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

(Rev 19:10) And I fell down before his feet to worship him, and he said to me: You must not do that! I am a fellow-servant with you, and with your brothers that hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Keep an open-mind and heart - always

Bless you,

APAK

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Why do you think I am trying to shut you up...?
I believe the verse is in Revelation chapter 4.
You are quite confrontational in a discussion. Why?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It is added in error that Jesus is worshipped?
What are you teaching here...?!

 

[gadar perets]

God is Spirit. God the Father is Spirit. We are told the word is spirit because God is Spirit. So God IS the Holy Spirit. In my mind anyway...

I agree. He uses His Spirit to accomplish His will. It is His power and influence.

 

[gadar perets]

The whole law is to fear God and keep His commandments. But the purpose of grace is to be in relationship with the living God.

It is not the "whole law", but the "whole of man" or the whole duty of man."

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am too stunned to go on in this conversation. With either of you.

 

[gadar perets]

To actually enter into Zion....a spiritual realm....where one sees where Jesus lives. It is slightly out of focus because of our human senses. But as we fix our eyes on the kingdom...this world goes out of focus...so that we are no longer drawn to it.

THAT is abiding in Christ. Walking EXACTLY as Jesus walked. Walking in 2 dimensions at the same time.

You have given the results of abiding in Messiah. Abiding in him is to remain connected to him resulting in bearing fruit.

 

[APAK]

Why do you think I am trying to shut you up...?
I believe the verse is in Revelation chapter 4.
You are quite confrontational in a discussion. Why?

You said, "Maybe you need to look closer at this, above, in light of the 24 elders falling down and worshiping the Lamb."

You added worship here not I. I'm trying to say you cannot just add words in like this. It make a big difference in meaning.

If you mean something else, and just wanted me to consider this verse, without any agenda, them I was in err. I will surely admit it. And them I may ask you to explain yourself more clearly. If not , then I was correct in the tone of my reply.

I'm not confrontational if there is no obvious cause. I read a cause in your words...It is up to you then to correct me.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[gadar perets]

Yes, I do indeed read everything you reference.

Now you said that there are two Lords, but the Bible says there is one Lord.

How do you account for this contradiction in your thinking? Either you are misinterpreting what the Bible says, or else you are interpreting something wrong....

I addressed this several times throughout this thread. It is you who interpret Scripture wrong.

I am going to do a google search on the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed shortly, and I suggest you do the same.

Because if that is on google (and I believe it should be, even if google is given over wholly to the world), understanding these creeds should help you to see what Christians believe about the doctrine of the Trinity.

I could care less what either creed says. They are the carnal words of trinitarians, not the inspired words of YHWH.

A key verse for you to consider, also, is Isaiah 55:6-13, esp. vs.8-9. If we could comprehend the God we serve, we might even be Him. But we are not. We are finite and He is infinite. That means that some of the things that pertain to Him exist outside of the four dimensions that we live in. In the Bible Codes in Genesis chapter 1 certain Bible scholars who are aware of it will tell you that it speaks of ten dimensions of which time is only the fourth. That means that there are six dimensions above time that we have no comprehension of as human beings. Do you not think that within those dimensions, of which God is the creator and is therefore transcendent above all of them, that God could somehow be three-in-one. I have in times past seen it as an eternal mirror created by God the Father (from the fifth or sixth dimension, so to speak, so that it is not bound by time) and the Person on the other side is the same Person as on the originating side but that He has a consciousness of His own. A created mirror that always was and always will be. Can you think outside the box?

First creeds, now Bible codes? I'll stick to the plain words of Scripture. You can get Bible codes to say anything.

 

[gadar perets]

The rest is details...although those details become very important at the appropriate times.

But you have to see the big picture to get the details right. So then the details are there...hidden in the narrative...to be found by those who seek for hidden treasure.

The big picture acts as a map....and the details are the treasure.

The details are what sound doctrine are founded upon. Once you have the details of the map, you will have a perfect image of the big picture. The details are the portions of the map that lead us to the treasure (Yeshua).

 

[gadar perets]

I am too stunned to go on in this conversation. With either of you.

Who are you addressing? If me, what did I write that stunned you?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You said, "Maybe you need to look closer at this, above, in light of the 24 elders falling down and worshiping the Lamb."

You added worship here not I. I'm trying to say you cannot just add words in like this. It make a big difference in meaning.

If you mean something else, and just wanted me to consider this verse, without any agenda, them I was in err. I will surely admit it. And them I may ask you to explain yourself more clearly. If not , then I was correct in the tone of my reply.

I'm not confrontational if there is no obvious cause. I read a cause in your words...It is up to you then to correct me.

Bless you,

APAK

I did not add worship. You are not looking at the verse I was referring to. What agenda would I have? To magnify my Lord? To say He is worthy of worship? Is that the agenda that made you so sharp, curt and angry with me? And correct you HOW? You say that when it says the 24 elders fall down before the Lamb and worship Him, that the word was added by mistake. So how will anyone correct you? May God have mercy on your soul is the only response I can think to give to a man who says Jesus is not to be worshipped.

 

[Episkopos]

It is not the "whole law", but the "whole of man" or the whole duty of man."

yes. The whole law is the whole duty of man. We are to fear the Lord and keep His commandments. But God is also merciful. So if we are humble and don't judge others....God can have mercy on us...even though we don't do so well.

 

[Episkopos]

You have given the results of abiding in Messiah. Abiding in him is to remain connected to him resulting in bearing fruit.

Yes,,,but one must understand the scale of that. We are to bear a holy fruit....perfect as God is perfect.

 

[Episkopos]

The details are what sound doctrine are founded upon. Once you have the details of the map, you will have a perfect image of the big picture. The details are the portions of the map that lead us to the treasure (Yeshua).

You get lost in the details if you can't see the big picture.

Imagine settling down on a piece of land...building a house and planting a garden. Then, other people come and say that you are on their land. When you check their claim...they are right. You did everything wonderfully...but for someone else. You were careful in your settling the land...but were not clear on the location of your claim.

So we can strain out gnats (sort out the details)....and swallow camels.(miss the big picture)