“And the earth was without form, and void”

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bbyrd009

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All that has been addressed. In means became.

And I agree there are other reasons as well, which I have also posted proof for.
ah, well i already know that is not possible, that is strictly your opinion wadr, but if you provided a link right here even that would at least make it possible to get your pov
 
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bbyrd009

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If you're looking for a quick and simple answer to this complex issue, ain't gonna happen.
thankfully that is not at all what i was looking for though, huh.
look, no offense but i'm up past my bedtime anyway and you are now shucking and jiving in stereo i guess
so have a nice evening, and ty for the...um, whatever those are, ok
 
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brakelite

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I'm not seeing your point unless you're trying to build a case for the SDA belief all life will be gone, which is not Biblical.
So you say. But Jeremiah says different. You are going to have to prove that Jeremiah was speaking as a historian, opposed to being a prophet. There are numerous examples in scripture, such as the one I have above, where prophets spoke of future events in the past tense, as if they were eye witnesses.
 
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CoreIssue

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thankfully that is not at all what i was looking for though, huh.
look, no offense but i'm up past my bedtime anyway and you are now shucking and jiving in stereo i guess
so have a nice evening, and ty for the...um, whatever those are, ok
Not at my age. Good night.
 

CoreIssue

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So you say. But Jeremiah says different. You are going to have to prove that Jeremiah was speaking as a historian, opposed to being a prophet. There are numerous examples in scripture, such as the one I have above, where prophets spoke of future events in the past tense, as if they were eye witnesses.
Commentaries by CoreIssue

Considering mankind didn't even exist yet when why he talked about happened, he could not have been a historian.

The fact that he said there was no life on earth when he looked is proof he was not looking forward.
 

CoreIssue

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Sorry , but that possibly is the worst example of exegesis I have come across.

Revelation 20
The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Judgment of the Dead
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
 

Jay Ross

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I am not angry about anything. But before I accept something I want to know its source.

You being upset about that really makes me want to know now. Sounds like hiding something.

But bolding your posts gives the impression of being angry and as such I responded by asking whether or not it really mattered. As I stated very clearly in the post to which the PDF file was attached, what was being expressed in the document were my thoughts. The Document was written a number of years ago and the concept of having an organisation called UNU Ministries as a covering for what I and my wife were doing at that time tickled my funny bone as it was a play on who we are and how we sort to empower other people in their ministries.

So it seems to me that you did not fully comprehend what you read.

As always, the reader should always verify what is present by other people.

Now I did not attach the PDF file for your sole benefit. It was attached to provide a very different perspective of the first day of creation to consider.

I am happy for people to accept or ignore or take under consideration what I write, but your approach and method of inquiry would upset even the greatest of the Saints among us.

Shalom
 
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CoreIssue

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But bolding your posts gives the impression of being angry and as such I responded by asking whether or not it really mattered. As I stated very clearly in the post to which the PDF file was attached, what was being expressed in the document were my thoughts. The Document was written a number of years ago and the concept of having an organisation called UNU Ministries as a covering for what I and my wife and were doing at that time tickled my funny bone as it was a play on who we are and how we sort to empower other people in their ministries.

So it seems to me that you did not fully comprehend what you read.

As always, the reader should always verify what is present by other people.

Now I did not attach the PDF file for your sole benefit. It was attached to provide a very different perspective of the first day of creation to consider.

I am happy for people to accept or ignore or take under consideration what I write, but your approach and method of inquiry would upset even the greatest of the Saints among us.

Shalom
Bolding Italics is to give clear distinguish mark from what I'm responding to. Nothing more.

And all the fonts are identical in is often hard to tell who is speaking.

On my site I have quote and nested will functionals. Some forum administrators like it in some do not. The administrators on my site like it. Here it looks like they do not.

We both use Xenforo.
 
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Hidden In Him

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The question is answered when one places the Jeremiah descriptive where it belongs...after the second coming.

Actually Brakelite, I don't think it's a Messianic passage. I don't agree with CoreIssue that it's pointing backwards, other than that He is using a corollary of Israel soon having to go back to the dawn of their creation, as it were. But the desolation he speaks of is clearly that of Judah when destruction would come from the Babylonians.

The context bears this out (see the underlined verses):

5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defensed cities. 6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. 7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant. 8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the Lord is not turned back from us. 9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the Lord, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder. 10 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reaches unto the soul. 11 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, 12 Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them. 13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. 14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee? 15 For a voice declares from Dan, and publishes affliction from mount Ephraim. 16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. 17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the Lord. 18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reaches unto thine heart. 19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart makes a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. 20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. 21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? 22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. 29 The whole city [Jerusalem] shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city [of Judah] shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. (Jeremiah 4:5-29)

Not trying to selectively oppose your perspective in particular, Brakelite, but for this passage to be Messianic (i.e. end-times) there are certain statements in it you would have to spiritualize away while taking the rest literally, such as that the armies that bring this desolation will be comprised of horsemen and bowman (v.29). That's not modern military weaponry but the primitive stuff they were using back in Jeremiah's day. Plus, nowhere is the desolation of the nations mentioned in this entire passage. In context, the phrase "all the cities" is clearly a reference to the cities of Judah (v.16, v.5-7).
 
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Jay Ross

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Bolding Italics is to give clear distinguish mark from what I'm responding to. Nothing more.
You are shouting at me.

And all the fonts are identical in is often hard to tell who is speaking.
And you are continuing to shout at me with your bolded comments.

On my site I have quote and nested will functionals. Some forum administrators like it in some do not. The administrators on my site like it. Here it looks like they do not.
You are still shouting at me about something that is not relevant to what I had posted.

We both use Xenforo.
You are still shouting at me.

Your post above has nothing to do with what is allowed within the format of a post on this site nor is it on topic about what I had originally posted.

I have had no issues in breaking up your "long" post into a number of short quotes so that I can comment on each of the short sections of your post that I have created by quoting each of the sections separately.

Now were there any errors in the PDF file that I had attached to my previous post.

Shalom
 

farouk

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Still ‘was’ or ‘became’ in context:

Jeremiah 4:23-28
[23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

“Mountain and hills moved”

[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

“...all the birds of the heavens were fled.”

[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord , and by his fierce anger.

A once ‘fruitful’ place is a wilderness. ‘Cities’ broken down from the presence of the Lord.

[27] For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

[28] For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it , I have purposed it , and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

“For this shall the earth mourn.”
Are you saying this is the same as Genesis 1:1-In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. [3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

...or are you saying Jeremiah is before Genesis 1?
Proponents of the so called Gap Theory (among them Thomas Chalmers of the Free Church of Scotland in the 19th century) would claim that it means 'And the earth became without form and void...' (I am not convinced...)
 
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CoreIssue

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Actually Brakelite, I don't think it's a Messianic passage. I don't agree with CoreIssue that it's pointing backwards, other than that He is using a corollary of Israel soon having to go back to the dawn of their creation, as it were. But the desolation he speaks of is clearly that of Judah when destruction would come from the Babylonians.

The context bears this out (see the underlined verses):

5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defensed cities. 6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction. 7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant. 8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the Lord is not turned back from us. 9 And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the Lord, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder. 10 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reaches unto the soul. 11 At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse, 12 Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them. 13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled. 14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee? 15 For a voice declares from Dan, and publishes affliction from mount Ephraim. 16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah. 17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the Lord. 18 Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reaches unto thine heart. 19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart makes a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. 20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. 21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? 22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. 29 The whole city [Jerusalem] shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city [of Judah] shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. (Jeremiah 4:5-29)

Not trying to selectively oppose your perspective in particular, Brakelite, but for this passage to be Messianic (i.e. end-times) there are certain statements in it you would have to spiritualize away while taking the rest literally, such as that the armies that bring this desolation will be comprised of horsemen and bowman (v.29). That's not modern military weaponry but the primitive stuff they were using back in Jeremiah's day. Plus, nowhere is the desolation of the nations mentioned in this entire passage. In context, the phrase "all the cities" is clearly a reference to the cities of Judah (v.16, v.5-7).
an end

The problem you have is an verses 23-27 and the rest of the chapter are talking about two different issues. The technique is used many times in the bible, such as comparing the king to Satan and his loss of his heavenly domain.
It says all life of any kind is gone but in the other verses it talks about living humans.

It says the cities are destroyed while the other verses say they are deserted.

Then you want to get on the issue of formless and void. But Isaiah 45:18 to 9 denies you. He created the earth to be inhabited.


The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number:
08414 Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
wht from an unused root meaning to lie waste
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Tohuw TWOT - 2494a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
to'-hoo Noun Masculine
Definition
  1. formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
    1. formlessness (of primeval earth)
      1. nothingness, empty space
    2. that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
    3. wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
    4. place of chaos
    5. vanity
The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number:
0922 Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
whb from an unused root (meaning to be empty)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Bohuw TWOT - 205a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
bo'-hoo Noun Masculine
Definition
  1. emptiness, void, waste

In Genesis there was no land. God raised it out of the water

By the usage in Jeremiah war often renders land formless and void. But the dry land was still dry land in Jeremiah. So do not try to compare it to Genesis unless it is the whole world.

  • The verses. I pointed out are not about Judah. I believe Jeremiah used preadamic as an example.
Just like Satan walking among the jewels in the sky and rebelling was used as an example of the king.
 

CoreIssue

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You are shouting at me.

And you are continuing to shout at me with your bolded comments.

You are still shouting at me about something that is not relevant to what I had posted.

You are still shouting at me.

Your post above has nothing to do with what is allowed within the format of a post on this site nor is it on topic about what I had originally posted.

I have had no issues in breaking up your "long" post into a number of short quotes so that I can comment on each of the short sections of your post that I have created by quoting each of the sections separately.

Now were there any errors in the PDF file that I had attached to my previous post.

Shalom
Have you lectured the others who use bold?

Still want to know who they are.

By the way, shouting is using caps, not bold.