The Rapture Lie

[ScottA]

So how did the Holy Spirit descend on Jesus if they are one and the same?

As the eyes of a man descend upon his own hand.

 

[mjrhealth]

As the eyes of a man descend upon his own hand.

I was mostly with you Scott till this part. They are not one and the same.

Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

 

[ScottA]

#1 That depends, of course, on what context we're talking about 'eternal life'. By accepting Christ and recieving the Holy Spirit as a guarantee:

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. -Ephesians 1:13–14

Now, a guarantee is something assured, but not actually recieved until later. We know in Christ we shall have eternal life, but this life...this world, is not that time. It is only once we have put off the perishable and put on the imperishable (1 Cor 15) that we will see this eternality fulfilled. For most of us, we must see death first, for this promise to be fulfilled, but for some, we have a promise that we will not see death, or 'sleep', but that we will see that 'change' while alive:

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:51, 54

When? At Christ's return:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:22–26

Basically we're being told that right now we have a guarantee, an asured promise that is sealed in us by the Holy Spirit. We know it to be absolutely true that we have eternal life before us. But we do not have it now. Unless Christ returns before we die, we shall die.
The power of death is clearly and finally defeated at Christ's return, an event the bible paints as "the end", when Christ delivers all these things (all rules, authorities and enemies) to the Father. And we are given that which we have been sealed for...the imperishable.



#2 Ok...wait. I'm struggling to understand what you mean by "live in you". Why would this event have anything to do with the passage in question? Why would you think Christ "living within us" happens "each in his own order" as the Rapture events that you are talking about? Is that what you are talking about? Because if it is, you are even more confused than I thought.
Look...the phrase "Live in you", means that God comes to dwell within a person and regenerates them...we're talking salvation, yes? And this happens when a person accepts Christ as their Saviour. It sometimes happens when a person is on their death bed, I grant you, but most of the time, people live for some time afterwards as a Christian, growing ever closer to Christ through sanctification in the Holy Spirit. This is clearly taught in scripture:

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. -John 14:16–17

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. -John 16:7

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: - 1 Peter 1:2

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. -Romans 6:22

So, when we come to 1 Cor 15:23 and we start thinking about "each in their own order", as well as "Christ in us", we don't understand it as thinking that the verse, which clearly speaks of Christ's "coming", is telling us that we must wait till then to be "in Christ".
Absolutely not. And the verse doesn't say anything of the sort. It just specifies that those who are already IN Christ, at his coming, will then be like him. Him the firstfruits, we the, well, seconds.
If you try and make it about salvation and being in Christ, you are twisting the verse just as much as you are if you try and make it about time distortions.



#3 Again, you are attempting to put into and onto, a verse, what is not there. You cannot claim your argument true just by saying "ha! see, no mass death event!" It doesn't work like that. You need to show, first from the verse in question, which you haven't, by the way, and from other verses to back up your understanding, which you also haven't. Objecting to my objection is not a valid arguement. Telling someone they are wrong, without showing from scripture why, is also not valid. Quoting three or four words from the one verse over and over again in the hope that perhaps this time it will prove your point, will also fail to stand up under biblical scrunity.

How about you take a step back, go back and read all the verses I've given, and address at least one of them, in regards to the subject? How are the verses I've used incorrect? If you think they are, show me.


#4 One can be sure of ones salvation as soon as one accepts Christ.

He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. -2 Corinthians 5:5

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. -Ephesians 1:13–14

And of course no one knows the hour of their death. No one knows the hour of Christ's return, either. But, scripture clearly tells us there is a difference between death...individual, 'ordinary' death, that happens on a regular basis, and the events that will happen on his return:

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:13–18


#6 So, here's another passage where Paul gives us the who, and the sequence: he says Jesus will come with a cry, the dead will rise first, then those who are still alive at the time. This is a definite event in time where there will be those still alive...those who will not die.
And it has nothing to do with knowing, or not knowing, the time of your death.


I'm sorry, my sarcasm tends to jump into overdrive when I get accused of being...how did it go? If I didn't "have Christ" I wasn't in the position to speculate on what we were talking about. And apparently, according to you, not agreeing with you is the definition of not having Christ. And this, with, you know, very litte, to substantiate your whole point. It just seemed a bit rich, so yeah...sarcasm.
I'll try and reign it in.

Yes, No, or a simple answer would have served our discussion and the truth better. Watch:

1. You are running 1 and 2 together. So I will start with #2.
2. Christ "living in you" is the rapture. Which is not the point of "seal" by the Holy Spirit, for Christ is sealed already (which is the answer to #1).
3. I gave you a choice of defining the time one dies as you define the time of the rapture, or in the way Paul defined it. It is a simply question...an exercise in common sense. You didn't answer.
4. Okay, so you agree that one cannot know the day and hour of their death, which just happens to also be true of the day or hour of Christ's return...and why I asked the question of you. They are the same, but different. You agree. Which is true to the extent of why I asked the question, but not true with regard to the timing of the rapture. They are different because one speaks of a persons death, and the other speaks of their new life in Christ. But the timing is the same...according to Paul: "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Which if combined with "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"...tells us that death and life in Christ (my first question), meaning the rapture, whether it occurs in the midst of life in the world or at the end...is simultaneous.

 

[ScottA]

Why doesn't my logic work? The point IS that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one! The Trinity is one!

You answered your own question.

You don't get it, do you? Christ has his own glory. He paid for it upon the cross, he appears wearing it before the throne of his Father (as the slain Lamb). Angels and elders bow down and worship him, as do men or all nations. He comes in THAT glory.
And we know, from Rev 1:7 that we shall see him, he will not be invisible spirit.

Wrong. Jesus does not have His own glory, He has that glory which He inherited from the Father: "All."

Look...seriously. If you want me to even start to take you seriously, you need to start bringing out scripture. You just haven't been. Your questions don't cut it, your short, "snippet" verses don't either, I'm sorry. Dig deep, get those verses in context, then we'll see.

Make sure to tell me when you give the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles a hard time about their "snippets." I would really like to see that. ...Sorry, you deserved that.

 

[ScottA]

Question: how are we to 'share' our new, spiritual body with Christ? I'd like you to just spell this out a bit in more detail, because I just don't quite get what you're pushing at, sorry.

We will share as we have seen. The world is a manifestation of all that is on high. The sharing comes as a result of all truth being written in our hearts, and also the Oneness. Just as Jesus and the Father are One, we are One also.

Also...you keep on at this "it isn't a mass event" thesis. Which I very much disagree with. I think there are plenty of verses to prove that we are talking about a future event. But I've given several of those verses and you just don't seem to notice them, or care. Which may explain why you've ended up where you are.
But, I have to also have to say that for all you're pushing a 'continuous' event, I have not, yet, seen a single verse (past your 'each in their own order, which I don't think is strong enough by itself, because I don't think that is what it's talking about at all) that supports your idea. To form a doctrine as...remarkable...as you have, you need more than a single phrase. Do you have it?

It's all of them together. Which I have been paraphrasing some and actually quoting the rest...and other than an attempt to speak plainly, the least of what I have been saying is just me talking. Most is written in the scriptures. But before you bust my chops for paraphrasing...so did Jesus.

 

[mjrhealth]

@ScottA It think you are speaking of this part

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

which has being resurrected as ,

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And for many that is the end of the story till we go to be with Christ.

But how many believe they can have that all now????

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, No, or a simple answer would have served our discussion and the truth better. Watch:

1. You are running 1 and 2 together. So I will start with #2.
2. Christ "living in you" is the rapture. Which is not the point of "seal" by the Holy Spirit, for Christ is sealed already (which is the answer to #1).
3. I gave you a choice of defining the time one dies as you define the time of the rapture, or in the way Paul defined it. It is a simply question...an exercise in common sense. You didn't answer.
4. Okay, so you agree that one cannot know the day and hour of their death, which just happens to also be true of the day or hour of Christ's return...and why I asked the question of you. They are the same, but different. You agree. Which is true to the extent of why I asked the question, but not true with regard to the timing of the rapture. They are different because one speaks of a persons death, and the other speaks of their new life in Christ. But the timing is the same...according to Paul: "to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Which if combined with "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"...tells us that death and life in Christ (my first question), meaning the rapture, whether it occurs in the midst of life in the world or at the end...is simultaneous.

You know, it occurs to me that the more bible verses I give to prove my point and to explain my position, the more dodging I get from you. Seriously. I think you've done all the classics...refusing to answer a question by instead asking a barrage of questions, demanding I answer immediately! That way when I don't (or do, with multiple scriptures in this case) you can splutter accordingly and accuse me of not answering, all the while covering the fact that, dude...you have not managed to rebut a single bible verse I've given or justified a single point or shown a single verse that ACTUALLY backs up your position!
You drop these little bible snippets, a couple words here, a couple words there, expecting them to make your point. I'm pretty sure I can cut and paste words from the bible and make it say Abraham was a giant chicken who fell from the sky. And of course, that would be both ridiculous, and offensive to God's word.
But seriously...are you aware that over our conversation, you have not responded once to the bible verses I have posted. Not once. You have not responded with your own verses. You have not attempted to tell me the verses I have posted meant something else. You just keep saying I am wrong and you are right, and then do your three to four word "verse drop", expecting that to prove it for you.
I hate to break it to you, but no...it's not going to prove it for you.

 

[Naomi25]

You answered your own question.

No, you wish I had. I'm guessing you don't 'do' the Trinity? Well...that's a whole other conversation we don't need.
But briefly...when Jesus told the disciples that he must depart, or else the helper would not be sent to them, we see the order of the Trinity working. If it were only Christ, moving from one task to another, why would he have not said, 'if I do not go to the Father, I will not be able to return to you'. No...he specifically mentioned the helper, who he had previously talked about; the Holy Spirit.

Wrong. Jesus does not have His own glory, He has that glory which He inherited from the Father: "All."

Yes, the GodHead does share Glory, that is true. That is part of their absolute unity. But scripture also tells us of Christ's glory:

Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” -Luke 24:26

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. -Matthew 25:31

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. -John 1:14

Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. -Luke 9:32

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. -Hebrews 2:9

Make sure to tell me when you give the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles a hard time about their "snippets." I would really like to see that. ...Sorry, you deserved that.

Oh? Dust out your credentials then, let me see them. When you are Christ, a prophet or an apostle, I'll let you get away with snippets. But as you have neither inspired scripture, or written it, I'll still stick with asking you to be seriously about the bible, which is what our faith is founded upon. If you want to be serious in building a doctrine ON SCRIPTURE, then you need to present it.

 

[Naomi25]

We will share as we have seen. The world is a manifestation of all that is on high. The sharing comes as a result of all truth being written in our hearts, and also the Oneness. Just as Jesus and the Father are One, we are One also.

I'm...not even sure what to do with this. Is this even slightly scriptural? It sounds more like a Budda thing, to be honest. Toss in a good "Oommm", or what have you.
One thing I am sure of...no...two things I am sure of:
1: this is absolutely not scriptural.
2: no wonder you don't use bible verses.

It's all of them together. Which I have been paraphrasing some and actually quoting the rest...and other than an attempt to speak plainly, the least of what I have been saying is just me talking. Most is written in the scriptures. But before you bust my chops for paraphrasing...so did Jesus.

Mmm. I think, when it comes to such...outside the box, things...paraphrasing is not going to cut it. Especially not with the itty bitty verse bits I've been seeing. You need to do some hard bible slogging, now. I'm talking word for word chunks, chapter and verse exegesis. Because that stuff above??? I have to confess...I'm a little intrigued how you manage to find that in scripture.

 

[ScottA]

I was mostly with you Scott till this part. They are not one and the same.

Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

I chose to use the eyes and hand of One body as an example...rather than the right hand and the left, or the hands and the feet. Either way they are One. But just as the body of Christ has many members, God is known in a multitude of ways, but is One.

 

[ScottA]

You know, it occurs to me that the more bible verses I give to prove my point and to explain my position, the more dodging I get from you. Seriously. I think you've done all the classics...refusing to answer a question by instead asking a barrage of questions, demanding I answer immediately! That way when I don't (or do, with multiple scriptures in this case) you can splutter accordingly and accuse me of not answering, all the while covering the fact that, dude...you have not managed to rebut a single bible verse I've given or justified a single point or shown a single verse that ACTUALLY backs up your position!
You drop these little bible snippets, a couple words here, a couple words there, expecting them to make your point. I'm pretty sure I can cut and paste words from the bible and make it say Abraham was a giant chicken who fell from the sky. And of course, that would be both ridiculous, and offensive to God's word.
But seriously...are you aware that over our conversation, you have not responded once to the bible verses I have posted. Not once. You have not responded with your own verses. You have not attempted to tell me the verses I have posted meant something else. You just keep saying I am wrong and you are right, and then do your three to four word "verse drop", expecting that to prove it for you.
I hate to break it to you, but no...it's not going to prove it for you.

Classic projection.

I reconciled all the verses. You did not, nor have you been honest about not being able to, but accuse me of the very things you are doing.

I am going to look at the rest of your current comments...but, I a not going to continue if you are not willing.

 

[ScottA]

No, you wish I had. I'm guessing you don't 'do' the Trinity? Well...that's a whole other conversation we don't need.
But briefly...when Jesus told the disciples that he must depart, or else the helper would not be sent to them, we see the order of the Trinity working. If it were only Christ, moving from one task to another, why would he have not said, 'if I do not go to the Father, I will not be able to return to you'. No...he specifically mentioned the helper, who he had previously talked about; the Holy Spirit.




Yes, the GodHead does share Glory, that is true. That is part of their absolute unity. But scripture also tells us of Christ's glory:

Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” -Luke 24:26

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. -Matthew 25:31

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. -John 1:14

Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him. -Luke 9:32

But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. -Hebrews 2:9



Oh? Dust out your credentials then, let me see them. When you are Christ, a prophet or an apostle, I'll let you get away with snippets. But as you have neither inspired scripture, or written it, I'll still stick with asking you to be seriously about the bible, which is what our faith is founded upon. If you want to be serious in building a doctrine ON SCRIPTURE, then you need to present it.

More misquoting me, making assumptions, yes, but no, and sneers.

As you will then - carry on.

 

[ScottA]

I'm...not even sure what to do with this. Is this even slightly scriptural? It sounds more like a Budda thing, to be honest. Toss in a good "Oommm", or what have you.
One thing I am sure of...no...two things I am sure of:
1: this is absolutely not scriptural.
2: no wonder you don't use bible verses.



Mmm. I think, when it comes to such...outside the box, things...paraphrasing is not going to cut it. Especially not with the itty bitty verse bits I've been seeing. You need to do some hard bible slogging, now. I'm talking word for word chunks, chapter and verse exegesis. Because that stuff above??? I have to confess...I'm a little intrigued how you manage to find that in scripture.

More of the same, now lies to boot. Slander. Judging.

Great. See you on the other side.

 

[mjrhealth]

I chose to use the eyes and hand of One body as an example...rather than the right hand and the left, or the hands and the feet. Either way they are One. But just as the body of Christ has many members, God is known in a multitude of ways, but is One.

I suppose it is a bit like a flock of birds in formation are as1 or even a school of fish, but that is another discussion that would get rather heated.

 

[Taken]

1 Cor 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

"EVERY MAN IN IS OWN ORDER".

"THEY THAT ARE Christ's at his COMING".

It seems, some do not understand...

Jesus Descends From Heaven TO the Clouds, and IS WHILE HE IS IN THE CLOUDS, He is Directing With Power, what is happening On Earth.

Those "BODIES" ON EARTH "who" are "IN Christ", are called UP to "Christ Jesus" in the clouds.

Before the Tribulation begins.
1) Bodies of dead saints.
2) Bodies of living saints.

During the Tribulation.
1) Bodies of men who "become" saints.

At the End of the Tribulation.
1) Mortal Bodies of those left on earth...
....Against God, are dead and devoured by birds.
2) Holy angels battle with fallen angels.
3) Fallen angels are sent to hell, for 1,000 years.
4) Christ descends from the clouds, TO Earth.
5) Mortal "Living" bodies of those left on earth... "shall live in peace"..Christ the King of all governments of mortal men....and Christs Kingdom of the Immortal saints, He brings with Him to His Kingdom.

6) For 1,000 years mortal men populate the earth. They live, as men have generationally.
Some are and become Faithful to Christ Jesus the King.
Some others Reject Christ Jesus the King.

7) When the 1,000 years expires, Satan and his fallen angels are loosed from hell, and return to earth, to Influence MORTAL men.

8) Those Mortal men have the same "choices"; TO reject Satan, or be yoked with him.....or TO reject Christ, or be yoked with Him.

9) Those with Christ Jesus, will be Saved and Become Quickened and their dead bodies Raised in Glory.

10) Those BODY's with Satan, will become dead, and eventually destroyed.

11) The second resurection will commence...
ALL dead bodies of ALL men, Who were marked with Satan....and NOT sealed unto Christ....WILL be Risen UP in "Damnation"...

12) IOW, they are Risen Up in their "UNGLORIFIED" Bodies, and their LIVING SOULS within their BODIES,,,to Stand IN the presence OF (and SEE) thee KING, Lord Jesus, as the Son of man...with Power.

God has AN ORDER, concering men...OF:
Who, What, When, Why and Where.

The Word of God, has revealed the specifics, so No Man, should be left WONDERING, or HAVE an EXCUSE of what shall become of him, PER the choices he makes while Living Upon this Earth.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Also...you keep on at this "it isn't a mass event" thesis. Which I very much disagree with.

"Mass event", can be misleading, if two are not on the same page.

Because there ARE, BOTH...

"Individual events"
And
"Mass events".

Individuals "physically die", every day.
Individual bodies, are cremated, buried, left in a field undiscovered, or whatever.
(Point is, All physical bodies shall die; and they are All physical deaths of individuals, whether they die at the same time or not).

All Living SOULS of physically dead bodies, leave out of their dying bodies; Individually, as each body is dying.

All Departed Living SOULS, individually go to the Place God has prepared for them.
Saved living souls, Go to Be with God, in Heaven.
Unsaved living soul, Go to Be without God, in Hell.

Those are "Individual events", pertaining to "individual men".

IT is the "CLAIMING", "the Taking", "the Redeeming", "the Resurecting"...
Ie THE ACTS OF GOD...

That CAN BE "INDIVIDUAL"...OR "MASS EVENTS"....OR "MORE THAN ONE MASS EVENTS".

Individual men, during their Mortal Life-time, have tribulations, trials, hardtimes, heartaches, sadness, unpleasantries, etc.

The Seven Years Tribulation....IS GODS Tribulation. No bones about it. It is clearly Gods Act, Gods Direction, Gods Plan, To ENSURE....Hardtimes, Heartaches, Sadness, Unpleasentries are COME UPON THE EARTH.

In short it is called....Gods Wrath.
In short its INTENT....IS:

TO Give mankind LEFT upon the Earth Ample WARNING, and TIME;
to make their choice, to BE WITH God or AGAINST GOD....And A TASTE of WHAT one can EXPECT, FOR whatever they CHOOSE.

It IS a TIME God Prepared;
FOR DIVIDING and SEPARATING.

Just as He has Prepared "OTHER" times, in "OTHER" eras and generations of men...
FOR DIVIDING and SEPARATING.

Men (body, soul, sprit) ALREADY "Divided and Separated" "UNTO the Lord" Are REMOVED FROM the EARTH....and NOT SUBJECT TO HIS WRATH, when His Tribulation Begins.

There IS a "MASS Event" of God removing them FROM the EARTH.
"THEY" are Already....Divided and Separated;
IN and WITH the Lord God.

During the Tribulation, OTHERS will BE DECIDING, To be with God and Lord Jesus or to Reject God and Lord Jesus.

They shall REMAIN on Earth, as Individuals making their Individual choices.

And at a Specific Time, another "MASS Event", will Occur, "BY GODS ACT", of:
Claiming, Taking, Resurrecting, Redeeming THEM, altogether, REMOVING THEM FROM THE Earth.

It is thereafter, ALL men "in a MASS EVENT" Left On the Earth, "Who" have taken Satan's mark, shall suffer Gods Wrath.....AND VENGENCE.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

You know, it occurs to me that the more bible verses I give to prove my point and to explain my position, the more dodging I get from you. Seriously. I think you've done all the classics...refusing to answer a question by instead asking a barrage of questions, demanding I answer immediately! That way when I don't (or do, with multiple scriptures in this case) you can splutter accordingly and accuse me of not answering, all the while covering the fact that, dude...you have not managed to rebut a single bible verse I've given or justified a single point or shown a single verse that ACTUALLY backs up your position!
You drop these little bible snippets, a couple words here, a couple words there, expecting them to make your point. I'm pretty sure I can cut and paste words from the bible and make it say Abraham was a giant chicken who fell from the sky. And of course, that would be both ridiculous, and offensive to God's word.
But seriously...are you aware that over our conversation, you have not responded once to the bible verses I have posted. Not once. You have not responded with your own verses. You have not attempted to tell me the verses I have posted meant something else. You just keep saying I am wrong and you are right, and then do your three to four word "verse drop", expecting that to prove it for you.
I hate to break it to you, but no...it's not going to prove it for you.

All Scripture is TRUE, regardless of who is Quoting Scripture.

Thus you should not find a person TRYING to Disprove your quoted Scripture with another quoted Scripture.

Again...All Scripture is True, regardless of who is Quoting the Scripture.

The Disagreement between two people is when two people have determine "DIFFERENT" Scripture "APPLY" to them.

For Example, I am Converted Wholly IN Christ, body, soul, spirit.

I have ZERO expectation to be On earth when the Tribulation Begins...

Because ... The Seven Year Tribulation is for Causing False Hope, Causing Division, Causing Separation, Causing Chaos, Causing Gods Revenge to be realized.

Men already Converted, have already become Divided and Separated, and with the Lord, IN the clouds, WHILE...His holy angelic servants, His Virgin Servants from the 12 Tribes of Israel....are come to the Earth TO Finish the Division of men, (between those desiring to BE With the Lord, FROM those desiring to remain without the Lord). As their 'SERVICE' is accomplished. The Lord Himself shall, Separate, BY TAKING and REDEEMING, those men WHICH, were Divided, UNTO TO HIM, WITH Him.

"IF" a man "IS" In Christ....The Lord Himself SHALL ... Redeem such man.

"IF" a man "DOES" or "DOES NOT KNOW WHEN"....it makes no difference if the man KNOWS WHEN, IT SHALL HAPPEN.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

OP <---- "The Rapture Lie".

Nope. No lie.

Some people WILL BE Removed from the Earth...
Resurrected, Claimed, Redeemed, BEFORE OTHERS.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[ScottA]

The gross error that has happened in all of Christendom, is not thinking that revelations are from God and not according to the world as most view and translate every revelation.

While men lean on their own understanding not renewing their mind, God has revealed His mind which does not translate into worldly terms as men can imagine. Therefore, those who have not seen God and Christ "as He is" and now refuse it, will not see Him until the end, but will only see the world which they have chosen. Nonetheless, those who have an ear to hear and have seen Him as He is, have and do understand that all things are according to the kingdom and during this time will give that testimony and not that of the world.

Each to his own will.

 

[Naomi25]

Classic projection.

And...around you go again!

I reconciled all the verses. You did not, nor have you been honest about not being able to, but accuse me of the very things you are doing.

One does not "reconcile" verses by ignoring them, or by repeating your point again in the hope that the verses will go away.

I am going to look at the rest of your current comments...but, I a not going to continue if you are not willing.

Ok, let's have a little look back over our conversation: in post #348 I pointed out that 1 Cor 15:23 did NOT hold the key to a massive new doctrine on time distortion. It read very simply: "This is the order of things: Christ first, THEN at his coming, those who belong to him". Simple.

You replied in #351 that I was, in fact, taking away from scripture (how, I'm not sure, you didn't say), and then you dropped your "every man in his own order" snippet again, like it was supposed to make your point for you.

However, repeating part of a verse that, when read in full, makes simple and wonderful sense...and that sense is NOT your point, you are fighting a loosing battle. BUT, you solider on!

You say that "my understanding of "Christ at his coming" is not evident."

My reply in #354: I remind you...again, that attempting to pull a whole doctrine out of an itty-bitty verse is folly. Especially when the verse naturally reads as a who, what, when. It tells us "heres the order: Christ first, then at his coming, the rest of us". Simple.

Can you refute that? No...no you can't, so you ignore and go on posting your snippets.

As in post #355, when you repeat your "every man" thing again. And try and tell me that if Christ is with me now, he doesn't need to come back.

So in post #356 I attempt to show you, in depth, with actual bible verses, rather than just hootspa, that the greek and English reading of 1 Cor 15:23 cannot be other than what if very simple is, and that you are totally reading more into it and assuming wildly.

In #359 you seem to have nothing to say to that. In fact, you say it was "all good", until I apparently mentioned Christ's return. Unable, or unwilling to comment on the topic at hand, you then tell me that my understanding is faulty, because *insert another snippet taken out of context*

#361 sees me commenting on your lack of commenting on my point in #356, my assumption is that you have, at last seen reason, or at least been forced to admit logic resides on my side. I then go on to comment on your "bible snippet" and how you are trying to prove your point about Christ's return with it. I used many scriptures (John 14:20–26, Philippians 3:20, Hebrews 9:28, Acts 1:11, 1 John 3:2, 1 John 2:28, Revelation 1:7, 1 Thessalonians 4:16–18, 1 Corinthians 15:23–26, 1 Corinthians 15:53–55,
to discuss how the bible talks about 1: Christ's presence with us now, and 2: his promised physical return. Did you, as you claimed you've done, address ANY of those verses?

Your reply #363: You tell me you most certainly didn't agree with any of the greek or English grammer points I made in #356 (although, one can't help noticing that you still don't say why, or make any convincing arguements against it. You avoid it, as usual, by just saying "you're wrong). You then go on to tell me I have not "reconciled" *insert out of context snippet again*, and that is why I have a "problem". You then tell me that I should do said "reconciling", or else you can "pick away" at my arguements as you have been (which I find slightly hilarious, because you haven't seriously address a single one yet).

The next three posts #364, #365 & #367 you disagree with things I've said, but again, show nothing but OPINION for your views. You don't discuss the bible verses I put forward, you don't put forward any yourself, and you don't try and give in depth discussions on the snippets you are trying to hang your whole doctrine on.



And goodness...it just goes on.
But my point is quite clear. You "say" you have reconciled all bible verses given. You have not. Clearly. Repeatedly. You respond to bible verses and points from scripture with little more than "your say so", which might be high in your own opinion, but mean little in the face of God's word.
I don't mind discussing scripture. I don't mind discussing doctrine. But if we're just talking made up doctrines based only upon the ideas of the dude who concoced them and his insistence that those four words HAVE to mean that, while clearly they don't say it, with zero backing up from other scripture...then it just beggars belief.
So...I suppose you can be a little outraged at me if you like, and tell me to be 'serious' about the conversation, and to stop accusing you of things I'm doing myself. But to be perfectly honest, I think if we look back over the conversation, as I have, I think we'll see I've done my level best to reason with you from scripture, and you've just ignored it, dodged and hedged.