"Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Faith" - Has 500 Years Taught Us Nothing?

[GodsGrace]

They didn't try to copy the US. They were doing everything he could to move to socialism.


No, did not exist in the early church. Nor were there any major. Bishops

Yes the seeds of Catholicism began early, but not Catholicism.

The EU wanted to be like the United States of America.
Except America became one nation first and through loss of blood and then they made a currency.

The EU thought the currency would bring them together through trade. No good. Every country here is very nationalistic. Also, seems to me the US is moving toward socialism too. Obama didn't make all those trips her for nothing...although we're not privy to the conversations --- I could just imagine.

There were bishops in the early church.
Look up:
The Bishops of:
Rome
Alessandria
Antioch
Contantinople
Jerusalem

The Pope as a title came into being in about the 5 or 600's.
Can't remember. It doesn't really matter to me except I do like to know history.

Some protestants deny the history of the church because they dislike catholicism so much....But it actually was the first church.

 

[mjrhealth]

@GodsGrace

you forced me to change my pic, we are not supposed to be looking at the cross no longer, as Christians In Christ we are supposed to be now walking that narrow path that leads to life, and the cross is now behind us.

God bless

 

[CoreIssue]

The EU wanted to be like the United States of America.
Except America became one nation first and through loss of blood and then they made a currency.

The EU thought the currency would bring them together through trade. No good. Every country here is very nationalistic. Also, seems to me the US is moving toward socialism too. Obama didn't make all those trips her for nothing...although we're not privy to the conversations --- I could just imagine.

There were bishops in the early church.
Look up:
The Bishops of:
Rome
Alessandria
Antioch
Contantinople
Jerusalem

The Pope as a title came into being in about the 5 or 600's.
Can't remember. It doesn't really matter to me except I do like to know history.

Some protestants deny the history of the church because they dislike catholicism so much....But it actually was the first church.

It depends on how you define church. I do not accept the Catholic definition. I define it as first century only.

Catholics try to define it as the early Catholic church, which did not exist until centuries later.

Constantine was a true founder of the Catholic church.

Catholic Church has never been universal, despite its claims.

The title Pope had been fought over for centuries. One would try the claim it and others would stop it and reject the title
completely.

The history of the Catholic Church by Catholic historians is pure fabrication. There is no outside confirmation.

Many of the so-called early church fathers would be outraged and reject the Catholic Church of today.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

you forced me to change my pic, we are not supposed to be looking at the cross no longer, as Christians In Christ we are supposed to be now walking that narrow path that leads to life, and the cross is now behind us.

God bless

I love your new avatar!
Aren't you happy I changed mine? Or we'd get pretty mixed up.
Except for our theology!

And I do agree with your statement.
Jesus is off the cross, and is now our Advocate in Heaven...seated at the right hand of God...continually interceding for us.

God bless you too.

 

[GodsGrace]

It depends on how you define church. I do not accept the Catholic definition. I define it as first century only.

Catholics try to define it as the early Catholic church, which did not exist until centuries later.

Constantine was a true founder of the Catholic church.

Catholic Church has never been universal, despite its claims.

The title Pope had been fought over for centuries. One would try the claim it and others would stop it and reject the title
completely.

The history of the Catholic Church by Catholic historians is pure fabrication. There is no outside confirmation.

Many of the so-called early church fathers would be outraged and reject the Catholic Church of today.

I've been reading the ECF and I'm not so sure you're right about them denying the present day Catholic church; although I do not agree with all their doctrine.

Let me ask you why you think the CC is NOT the original church?
WHICH church do you believe goes all the way back to Jesus?
Please notice that I said church...
Not Church.

 

[CoreIssue]

I've been reading the ECF and I'm not so sure you're right about them denying the present day Catholic church; although I do not agree with all their doctrine.

Let me ask you why you think the CC is NOT the original church?
WHICH church do you believe goes all the way back to Jesus?
Please notice that I said church...
Not Church.

I've been reading the ECF and I'm not so sure you're right about them denying the present day Catholic church; although I do not agree with all their doctrine.

Let me ask you why you think the CC is NOT the original church?
WHICH church do you believe goes all the way back to Jesus?
Please notice that I said church...
Not Church.

You are speaking of church in terms of a denomination or earthly organization. There is none, Paul told us they were wrong. Don't create them.

Church is not a physical term, but a spiritual one. The union of every New Testament Saint on the earth and in heaven under Christ. No archbishops, popes or such.

The church per the Bible is the local congregation with elders and a preacher.

Churches can work with each other but remain independent. No formal doctrine, hierarchy or regional or higher authority structure.

 

[CoreIssue]

You are speaking of church in terms of a denomination or earthly organization. There is none, Paul told us they were wrong. Don't create them.

Church is not a physical term, but a spiritual one. The union of every New Testament Saint on the earth and in heaven under Christ. No archbishops, popes or such.

The church per the Bible is the local congregation with elders and a preacher.

Churches can work with each other but remain independent. No formal doctrine, hierarchy or regional or higher authority structure.

And you talk exist all Catholics are united when they are not. I am sure you saw the diagram I posted proves that.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are speaking of church in terms of a denomination or earthly organization. There is none, Paul told us they were wrong. Don't create them.

Church is not a physical term, but a spiritual one. The union of every New Testament Saint on the earth and in heaven under Christ. No archbishops, popes or such.

The church per the Bible is the local congregation with elders and a preacher.

Churches can work with each other but remain independent. No formal doctrine, hierarchy or regional or higher authority structure.

Where did Paul tell us they were wrong?

 

[CoreIssue]

Where did Paul tell us they were wrong?

1 Corinthians 1:10-13
Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Cephas is Peter.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 Corinthians 1:10-13
Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Cephas is Peter.

You're saying that the above confirms your statement that there was no church to be instituted -- or at least that's what I understood.

It's just saying that we are to remain ONE, united in Jesus and not to have different leaders.

Which is exactly what happened after the reformation!
What Jesus did NOT want.

I don't believe any idealogy, including our faith, can exist without an institutiion...this is just how humans are. The early Christians sought to gather as often as they could and at least on the first day of the week to pray, hear words of Jesus and to break bread together.

This seems to be the opposite of what you're saying.

 

[CoreIssue]

You're saying that the above confirms your statement that there was no church to be instituted -- or at least that's what I understood.

It's just saying that we are to remain ONE, united in Jesus and not to have different leaders.

Which is exactly what happened after the reformation!
What Jesus did NOT want.

I don't believe any idealogy, including our faith, can exist without an institutiion...this is just how humans are. The early Christians sought to gather as often as they could and at least on the first day of the week to pray, hear words of Jesus and to break bread together.

This seems to be the opposite of what you're saying.

It wants us to be one but is saying denominationalism's division, not one.

Catholicism does not exist in the Bible. It is Catholic doctrine that it is the one true church. That is division.

Yes they gathered, but not as his nomination, but as a local congregation only. That is not Catholicism.

I attended a nondenominational church growing up. We worked with other nondenominational churches when needed. But we did not have any institutional authority governing us.

The Reformation was a reaction to the pagan derived Catholic church which this passage tells Christians not to be part of.

I'm not defending Protestant denominations any more than I defend the various Catholic denominations.

There was plenty a division under the Catholic Church. People who actually believed in the Bible did not support the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church persecuted them.

There is no way this verse or anything else in the Bible to defend Catholicism. It rejects it.

 

[GodsGrace]

It wants us to be one but is saying denominationalism's division, not one.

Catholicism does not exist in the Bible. It is Catholic doctrine that it is the one true church. That is division.

Yes they gathered, but not as his nomination, but as a local congregation only. That is not Catholicism.

I attended a nondenominational church growing up. We worked with other nondenominational churches when needed. But we did not have any institutional authority governing us.

The Reformation was a reaction to the pagan derived Catholic church which this passage tells Christians not to be part of.

I'm not defending Protestant denominations any more than I defend the various Catholic denominations.

There was plenty a division under the Catholic Church. People who actually believed in the Bible did not support the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church persecuted them.

There is no way this verse or anything else in the Bible to defend Catholicism. It rejects it.

I'm not saying that the denomination has to be catholicism.
I'm saying Jesus meant for there to be a church.

I DO believe, historically speaking, that the catholic church IS the first church.
Ignatius of Antioch first called Christianity, or The Way, the Catholic (or universal) church in 107 AD. And it was a direct outgrowth of The Way which is mentioned in Acts 24:14

I agree that the church became embroiled with the state of Rome and then began the problems...until then, we could thank that church for maintaining our faith pure.

I also agree that catholicism needed reform because it had gone so out of God's way by the time of Luther.

OTOH, look what we have now...40,000 churches, incl independents. It's a bit crazy, don't you think?

 

[CoreIssue]

I'm not saying that the denomination has to be catholicism.
I'm saying Jesus meant for there to be a church.

I DO believe, historically speaking, that the catholic church IS the first church.
Ignatius of Antioch first called Christianity, or The Way, the Catholic (or universal) church in 107 AD. And it was a direct outgrowth of The Way which is mentioned in Acts 24:14

I agree that the church became embroiled with the state of Rome and then began the problems...until then, we could thank that church for maintaining our faith pure.

I also agree that catholicism needed reform because it had gone so out of God's way by the time of Luther.

OTOH, look what we have now...40,000 churches, incl independents. It's a bit crazy, don't you think?

The Catholic Church did not exist in any form or name at the time of the apostles.

The four Gospels prove you wrong on Catholicism being the first church, each letter is addressed different church.

Rome was embroiled with believers in BC times foreward.

Catholicism is shrinking, conservative Bible churches, especially nondenominational, are growing.

Why? Because the denominational churches are in apostasy or sliding toward it. They do not attract people because they do not teach the Bible. They teach their doctrine. Catholicism is one of the worst.

The harlot of Revelation is the Roman catholic church, is not Christian.

 

[mjrhealth]

I love your new avatar!
Aren't you happy I changed mine? Or we'd get pretty mixed up.
Except for our theology!

And I do agree with your statement.
Jesus is off the cross, and is now our Advocate in Heaven...seated at the right hand of God...continually interceding for us.

God bless you too.

Cool, yep cept I have no theoloyu that word, cant even spell it,...

 

[GodsGrace]

Cool, yep cept I have no theoloyu that word, cant even spell it,...

Sure you have a theology!
It just means the study of God and His nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Catholic Church did not exist in any form or name at the time of the apostles.

The four Gospels prove you wrong on Catholicism being the first church, each letter is addressed different church.

Rome was embroiled with believers in BC times foreward.

Catholicism is shrinking, conservative Bible churches, especially nondenominational, are growing.

Why? Because the denominational churches are in apostasy or sliding toward it. They do not attract people because they do not teach the Bible. They teach their doctrine. Catholicism is one of the worst.

The harlot of Revelation is the Roman catholic church, is not Christian.

This is history Coreissue.
I'm not going to argue history with you.
Was George Washington the first president?
See, nothing to argue about.

Your statement about the letters is not correct.
If there were 100 letters it does not mean there were 100 churches.

Just answer this:
What was the name of the very first church after the Christian Jews?
And when were they called Christian Jews?

 

[mjrhealth]

Sure you have a theology!
It just means the study of God and His nature.

Study no, just ask lots of questions than, sometimes have the answer right away, sometimes few hours ,sometimes years but HE always answers in His time. He has being busy lately topping His people with Oil before the end comes..

 

[GodsGrace]

Study no, just ask lots of questions than, sometimes have the answer right away, sometimes few hours ,sometimes years but HE always answers in His time. He has being busy lately topping His people with Oil before the end comes..

You know mj, people have always thought the end was near. I don't know that we're any nearer than 2,000 years ago. The Thessalonians thought Jesus was coming back in that very generation. But, I do believe we're closer than ever...why? Because man is beginning to think he's God...unless we're actually at that point already. You know, cloning and all that comes with it. We think we could create.

Also, when you're sick, where do you go?
If you want to learn math, where do you go?

I believe God has special messages for all of us...He sure did for me many years ago.
But if we want to know about something, we go to those that know more than we do.

Not to know God. Our relationship with God is just between us and Him.

But to know ABOUT God. I find there's so much to know that I probably never would have understood.

It's not a bad thing. God gave us a brain. Jesus said to love God with all your heart, soul and mind. He meant that we should know as much about our Father as possible.

Just a thought...I'm not criticizing your method...we all use it.

 

[Phoneman777]

WRONG.

I've already schooled you on the fact that they were made by a BAPTIST minister, Einstein.

Pretty sure you're information is incorrect, just like everything else you say

 

[Phoneman777]

I don't think you're crazy. There's just too much differing opinion on the above.
I don't know if the Anti-Christ was discussed before the reformation in the 1,500's.
Anti-Christs were spoken of, as the N.T. speaks of .. someone being against Christ.
This I know is biblical.

We should expect the devil to muddy the waters to prevent the truth from being seen clearly. That's why Jesus said the most important concern for us all was to "let no man deceive you by any means."

There's only 3 schools of thought that are presented here: Protestant Historicism, Jesuit Futurism and Jesuit Preterism.

While I can punch massive holes into both Jesuit ideas, no one in this forum can find a single chink in the armor of Protestant Historicism. Every single objection to it can be easily overruled with Scripture, but if poeple choose to stubbornly hold onto their ideas, not even the Holy Spirit can make them change their minds.

It is stubbornly claimed there's a gap between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel, though I've pointed out not a single other Numerically Specific Time Prophecy in Scripture inserts a gap:

God's pleading with the Antedeluvians was the predicted 120 years, no gap.
The Egyptian enslavement was 400 years, no gap.
Elijah's drought was 3 1/2 years, no gap.
This is the case for everything else.

As I have done, others have to be willing to give up "their truth" when the Holy Spirit brings them to "the truth". BTW, thanks for not thinking I'm crazy