How much ungodly behavior do you see in the church?

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farouk

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Yes....we ALL should be humble and be teachable and be teachers....Paul said we only know in PART....seeing through a glass darkly...kind of tells us none of us know the complete wisdom of God. It is being revealed to those who seek to find it.
We indeed need to search the Scriptures daily and keep 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2). Guidance in the Word from more experienced Christians can also be very helpful.
 
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Jane_Doe22

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The problem is it is YOUR truth not hers....does that make any sense? So to attack her belief only causes her to defend it at all cost....I truly believe that we will all (those who are part of HIS CHURCH) come to a place of agreement and be in one mind and one accord...this is what God spoke to me about awhile back and I shared it here....everyone on this forum have different doctrines of faith to which they adhere to....and most if not all believe in Jesus as the Messiah, God as the Father and the Holy Spirit....what separates us is that we don't agree with each others way of interpreting scripture. The Holy Spirit is opening the eyes and ears and hearts to understand the true meaning of scripture to those who are seeking truth. We are all growing at different levels of truth....so bottom line is if I or you or anyone here tries to shove our truths onto others who aren't ready to receive it yet then we create contention and strife against each other. (and vice versa)...
Great post. I do think I'll comment on this part though--
So to attack her belief only causes her to defend it at all cost....
I am a believer that God's Truth doesn't need men's arguments to defend it. I rarely go to "defend" any fact. However, I am OCD truthful and a stickler about getting the facts straight (and that includes good sources). So for example, if someone makes a false statement like "Baptists dance around naked at their potlucks", I'm going to say "No, I've been to many a Baptist potluck and they don't dance around naked. However, I have seen them cook some great BBQ." No, I'm not Baptist and I'm not going to "defend" Baptist beliefs, but I will try to be factual about what those beliefs are (facts I see from actually attending Baptist events and letting Baptists speak for themselves). And same for every other faith group-- all getting the exact same factual treatment, including ones I detest and my own.
 

Heart2Soul

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Great post. I do think I'll comment on this part though--

I am a believer that God's Truth doesn't need men's arguments to defend it. I rarely go to "defend" any fact. However, I am OCD truthful and a stickler about getting the facts straight (and that includes good sources). So for example, if someone makes a false statement like "Baptists dance around naked at their potlucks", I'm going to say "No, I've been to many a Baptist potluck and they don't dance around naked. However, I have seen them cook some great BBQ." No, I'm not Baptist and I'm not going to "defend" Baptist beliefs, but I will try to be factual about what those beliefs are (facts I see from actually attending Baptist events and letting Baptists speak for themselves). And same for every other faith group-- all getting the exact same factual treatment, including ones I detest and my own.
I just stuck with you as an example...it applies to all of us...and I love your light-hearted spirit in the matter. Blessed are the peacemakers!!!!
 

CoreIssue

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The problem is it is YOUR truth not hers....does that make any sense? So to attack her belief only causes her to defend it at all cost....I truly believe that we will all (those who are part of HIS CHURCH) come to a place of agreement and be in one mind and one accord...this is what God spoke to me about awhile back and I shared it here....everyone on this forum have different doctrines of faith to which they adhere to....and most if not all believe in Jesus as the Messiah, God as the Father and the Holy Spirit....what separates us is that we don't agree with each others way of interpreting scripture. The Holy Spirit is opening the eyes and ears and hearts to understand the true meaning of scripture to those who are seeking truth. We are all growing at different levels of truth....so bottom line is if I or you or anyone here tries to shove our truths onto others who aren't ready to receive it yet then we create contention and strife against each other. (and vice versa)...

Well, my truth is Bible oriented, hers is Mormon oriented, so we can't both be right.,

Pay attention to what the Bible says about false Stockton, teachers, profits etc. and didn't revelation the warnings against accepting and in tolerating such beliefs.

You don't get it I guess. Mormons have a different God, different scriptures, different prophets and a different Christ.

That is not looking at Christianity with a different view. It isn't Christian. It isn't truth.

What you're saying is apostasy. Time to rethink your position after some serious Bible study on the subject.
 

Jane_Doe22

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I just stuck with you as an example...it applies to all of us...and I love your light-hearted spirit in the matter. Blessed are the peacemakers!!!!
Thank you. Sorry if I missed the bigger picture there. I do very much enjoy your posts.
 

Heart2Soul

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Well, my truth is Bible oriented, hers is Mormon oriented, so we can't both be right.,

Pay attention to what the Bible says about false Stockton, teachers, profits etc. and didn't revelation the warnings against accepting and in tolerating such beliefs.

You don't get it I guess. Mormons have a different God, different scriptures, different prophets and a different Christ.

That is not looking at Christianity with a different view. It isn't Christian. It isn't truth.

What you're saying is apostasy. Time to rethink your position after some serious Bible study on the subject.
I will if you will! :D:p
 

Heart2Soul

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Been doing it for 58 years.
Well don't stop now....the Spirit of Truth is with us to help our understanding in scripture and I am still learning....and as of late evangelists and pastors all over the world are getting the exact same revelation from Him....I am excited to learn the hidden wisdom of God and to discover the Mysteries of God....I have been corrected many times throughout my spiritual growth and I pray I will always remain humble and be corrected as needed.
 

CoreIssue

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Well don't stop now....the Spirit of Truth is with us to help our understanding in scripture and I am still learning....and as of late evangelists and pastors all over the world are getting the exact same revelation from Him....I am excited to learn the hidden wisdom of God and to discover the Mysteries of God....I have been corrected many times throughout my spiritual growth and I pray I will always remain humble and be corrected as needed.

Even death does not stop from learning.

I've learned many things in life that younger people will never have the opportunity to learn because things change that much.
 
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Enoch111

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"Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image"
"Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"
(emphasis mine)
That certainly presents the Holy Trinity, but that is NOT three Gods (Polytheism). It is one God but three Persons.

I believe it is fair to say that Mormonism holds to Polytheism.
I will preach on the plurality of Gods... I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.
Joseph Smith - Mormonism founder
History of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints Vol 6: p 473
 

Jane_Doe22

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That certainly presents the Holy Trinity, but that is NOT three Gods (Polytheism). It is one God but three Persons.
LDS likewise believe in ONE God. Three persons, ONE God. The difference than the Athanasian view is in the *how* these three person are one God. LDS it's unity, Athanasian it's homoousios.
I will preach on the plurality of Gods... I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.
Joseph Smith - Mormonism founder
History of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints Vol 6: p 473
Non-canonicalstatement, ripped out of it's context here. If you want me to elaborate on this context I or anything else, I certainly can.
 

Enoch111

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Non-canonical statement, ripped out of it's context here.
Definitely not ripped out of context. Smith was discussing the Trinity in great detail in that context, and concocting his own theology about "the plurality of Gods". That is clearly Polytheism, since Paul was indeed speaking about multiple heathen gods and lords.

From the History of the Church of the Latter Day Saints, Volume 6, Chapter 23:

President Joseph Smith read the 3rd chapter of Revelation, and took for his text 1st chapter, 6th verse—"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father: to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

It is altogether correct in the translation. Now, you know that of late some malicious and corrupt men have sprung up and apostatized from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and they declare that the Prophet believes in a plurality of Gods, and, lo and behold! we have discovered a very great secret, they cry—"The Prophet says there are many Gods, and this proves that he has fallen."

[Page 474]

It has been my intention for a long time to take up this subject and lay it clearly before the people, and show what my faith is in relation to this interesting matter. I have contemplated the saying of Jesus (Luke 17th chapter, 26th verse)—"And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man." And if it does rain, I'll preach this doctrine, for the truth shall be preached.

I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit, and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it?

Our text says "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father." The Apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. My object was to preach the scriptures, and preach the doctrine they contain, there being a God above, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private.

John was one of the men, and apostles declare they were made kings and priests unto God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It reads just so in the Revelation. Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible. It stands beyond the power of controversy. A wayfaring man, though a fool, need not err therein.

Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many. I want to set it forth in a plain and simple manner; but to us there is but one God—that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all. But if Joseph Smith says there are Gods many and Lords many, they cry, "Away with him! Crucify him! crucify him!"

Mankind verily say that the scriptures are with them. Search the scriptures, for they testify of things that these apostates would gravely pronounce blasphemy. Paul, if Joseph Smith is a blasphemer, you are. I say there are Gods many and Lords many, but to us only one, and we are to be in subjection to that one, and no man can limit the bounds or the eternal existence of eternal time. Hath he beheld the eternal world, and is he authorized to say that there is only one God? He makes himself a fool if he thinks or says so, and there is an end of his career or progress in knowledge. He cannot obtain all knowledge, for he has sealed up the gate to it.

[Page 475]

Some say I do not interpret the scripture the same as they do. They say it means the heathen's gods. Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many; and that makes a plurality of Gods, in spite of the whims of all men. Without a revelation, I am not going to give them the knowledge of the God of heaven. You know and I testify that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods. I have it from God, and get over it if you can. I have a witness of the Holy Ghost, and a testimony that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods in the text. I will show from the Hebrew Bible that I am correct, and the first word shows a plurality of Gods; and I want the apostates and learned men to come here and prove to the contrary, if they can....
 

Jane_Doe22

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Definitely not ripped out of context. Smith was discussing the Trinity in great detail in that context, and concocting his own theology about "the plurality of Gods". That is clearly Polytheism.
The Athanasian view of God ("the Trinity) is not being discussed here. LDS do not believe in homoousios, rather believe the Father/Son/Spirit to be one God through unity. That theological context is ESSENTIAL for even starting to address these non-canonical speculations.
 

Heart2Soul

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Definitely not ripped out of context. Smith was discussing the Trinity in great detail in that context, and concocting his own theology about "the plurality of Gods". That is clearly Polytheism, since Paul was indeed speaking about multiple heathen gods and lords.

From the History of the Church of the Latter Day Saints, Volume 6, Chapter 23:

President Joseph Smith read the 3rd chapter of Revelation, and took for his text 1st chapter, 6th verse—"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father: to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

It is altogether correct in the translation. Now, you know that of late some malicious and corrupt men have sprung up and apostatized from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and they declare that the Prophet believes in a plurality of Gods, and, lo and behold! we have discovered a very great secret, they cry—"The Prophet says there are many Gods, and this proves that he has fallen."

[Page 474]

It has been my intention for a long time to take up this subject and lay it clearly before the people, and show what my faith is in relation to this interesting matter. I have contemplated the saying of Jesus (Luke 17th chapter, 26th verse)—"And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man." And if it does rain, I'll preach this doctrine, for the truth shall be preached.

I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit, and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it?

Our text says "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father." The Apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. My object was to preach the scriptures, and preach the doctrine they contain, there being a God above, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private.

John was one of the men, and apostles declare they were made kings and priests unto God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It reads just so in the Revelation. Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible. It stands beyond the power of controversy. A wayfaring man, though a fool, need not err therein.

Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many. I want to set it forth in a plain and simple manner; but to us there is but one God—that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all. But if Joseph Smith says there are Gods many and Lords many, they cry, "Away with him! Crucify him! crucify him!"

Mankind verily say that the scriptures are with them. Search the scriptures, for they testify of things that these apostates would gravely pronounce blasphemy. Paul, if Joseph Smith is a blasphemer, you are. I say there are Gods many and Lords many, but to us only one, and we are to be in subjection to that one, and no man can limit the bounds or the eternal existence of eternal time. Hath he beheld the eternal world, and is he authorized to say that there is only one God? He makes himself a fool if he thinks or says so, and there is an end of his career or progress in knowledge. He cannot obtain all knowledge, for he has sealed up the gate to it.

[Page 475]

Some say I do not interpret the scripture the same as they do. They say it means the heathen's gods. Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many; and that makes a plurality of Gods, in spite of the whims of all men. Without a revelation, I am not going to give them the knowledge of the God of heaven. You know and I testify that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods. I have it from God, and get over it if you can. I have a witness of the Holy Ghost, and a testimony that Paul had no allusion to the heathen gods in the text. I will show from the Hebrew Bible that I am correct, and the first word shows a plurality of Gods; and I want the apostates and learned men to come here and prove to the contrary, if they can....
For some reason I feel so compelled to stand in defense of Jane_Doe22.....she has done nothing that I can see to warrant such criticism...she claims to believe in the deity of Christ, in the Gospel of Salvation as taught in the Bible, has confessed Jesus as her Lord and Savior...worships God with all her heart and soul...exhibits a humble spirit even while being attacked...so what more does the Bible say she must do to be saved....and answer wisely for with what measure you judge so shall you be judged.
 
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Enoch111

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For some reason I feel so compelled to stand in defense of Jane_Doe22.....she has done nothing that I can see to warrant such criticism...
No one is criticizing Jane_Doe22. The evidence has simply been presented that Mormon theology teaches a plurality of Gods, not one true God eternally existence as three divine Persons.
 

Willie T

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Well, my truth is Bible oriented, hers is Mormon oriented, so we can't both be right.,
Pay attention to what the Bible says about false Stockton, teachers, profits etc. and didn't revelation the warnings against accepting and in tolerating such beliefs.
You don't get it I guess. Mormons have a different God, different scriptures, different prophets and a different Christ.
That is not looking at Christianity with a different view. It isn't Christian. It isn't truth.
What you're saying is apostasy. Time to rethink your position after some serious Bible study on the subject.
"No", both cannot be "right." But, both CAN be wrong (and probably ARE) on a variety of points and issues.