The Coming Great Apostasy

[Earburner]

The apostasy is here already. It is the apostasy concerning the faith OF Jesus Christ. What has replaced this is a belief system concerning things about Jesus....and even a human belief in Jesus for services provided. But NOT people who worship in Spirit and truth. That's what is lacking. We have built a form of godliness (the outward show)...but deny the power that transforms us into Christ-likeness, thus revealing the shallowness and emptiness of our professions. Like clouds with no rain. A hard and rigid dogmatic and religious outer shell that is empty inside. A lamp without oil.

That sure is the building of it up to the climax!
And the climax will be, what Jesus was concerned about, shall He find faith on the earth when he returns?
The instrument that situation will be the Markov the beast, and it won't be "religious" in any way!
In fact, it will appeal to "the natural man" , "that man of sin, the son of perdition", of which is everyone who is " none of His". Rom. 8:9

 

[Earburner]

“In the multitude of counselors there is safety” (Prov 11:14)

I myself use the NKJV for daily reading , but other more reliable translations for serious study.

You might want to take a look at the blog post entitled, "How to Choose a Bible Translation", for more insight on this issue if you have not already.

Although Prov. 11:14 is a wonderful piece of advice, for those who live and walk in their flesh, that counsel is not how the Lord wants for his "Born Again Saints" to seek his understanding, of His words or His will.
Isa. 55:8-9 and John 16:13 is for those who walk in His Holy Spirit of truth.

 

[bbyrd009]

Confessing sins IS NOT repentance TORWARDS the Lord.
People confess their "sins" inwardly to themselves, their neighbors, and in courts of civil law every day! Shall we say that all of such are Saved of the Lord?
NO!! Repentance towards the Lord, is to recognize the need to change, by returning to Him , through faith in Jesus!
.
Judas NEVER came to the Lord's form of repentance, otherwise Jesus would have confirmed that, instead of telling us that he IS LOST!

he was lost imo because he died, and wadr I do not believe that most ppl confess jack even to themselves, let alone in those other venues. Occasionally it happens, but to characterize it as generally true is not even funny wadr. 1 in 100, maybe. if that.

 

[bbyrd009]

do yourself a favor imo, and confess your sins one to another, and ignore anyone telling you different.
confession leads to salvation (Romans 10:10 Lexicon: for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation., where we have now turned that into "profession" right, but there are plenty of Witnesses ty God. Also we turned "has faith" into "believes" there, so the v in English is practically mooted, almost completely crap, only any good for a "believer" now lol) imo for the simple and obvious reason that anyone who can actually confess exhibits "Godly sorrow" as discussed in 2 Corinthians 7:10 Lexicon: For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

 

[Earburner]

he was lost because he died, and wadr I do not believe that most ppl confess jack even to themselves, let alone in those other venues. Occasionally it happens, but to characterize it as generally true is not even funny wadr. 1 in 100, maybe. if that.

Correct, Judas died without the Gift the Holy Spirit- Rom. 8:9. It's as simple as that! He didn't make it to the day of Pentecost, because he didn't have faith to believe in God's forgiveness through Jesus.
Peter, who denied the Lord three times proved that!!

 

[Earburner]

he was lost because he died, and wadr I do not believe that most ppl confess jack even to themselves, let alone in those other venues. Occasionally it happens, but to characterize it as generally true is not even funny wadr. 1 in 100, maybe. if that.

By the what does "wadr" mean?

 

[Earburner]

do yourself a favor imo, and confess your sins one to another, and ignore anyone telling you different.
confession leads to salvation (Romans 10:10 Lexicon: for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation., where we have now turned that into "profession" right, but there are plenty of Witnesses ty God. Also we turned "has faith" into "believes" there, so the v in English is practically mooted, almost completely crap, only any good for a "believer" now lol) imo for the simple and obvious reason that anyone who can actually confess exhibits "Godly sorrow" as discussed in 2 Corinthians 7:10 Lexicon: For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

No one is ever made righteous by confessing their sins. However, for our salvation by His Righteousness, we are to confess with our mouth, the Name of our Lord and Savior

 

[bbyrd009]

By the what does "wadr" mean?

google could help you there quicker fwiw, but "with all due respect."

 

[bbyrd009]

No one is ever made righteous by confessing their sins. However, for our salvation by His Righteousness, we are to confess with our mouth, the Name of our Lord and Savior

so you say, yes

do yourself a favor imo, and confess your sins one to another, and ignore anyone telling you different.
confession leads to salvation (Romans 10:10 Lexicon: for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation., where we have now turned that into "profession" right, but there are plenty of other Witnesses ty God. Also we turned "has faith" into "believes" there, so the v in English is practically mooted, almost completely crap, only any good for a "believer" now lol) imo for the simple and obvious reason that anyone who can actually confess exhibits "Godly sorrow" as discussed in 2 Corinthians 7:10 Lexicon: For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

you will find what you seek (seek, and you will find)

 

[Earburner]

google could help you there quicker fwiw, but "with all due respect."

google could help you there quicker fwiw, but "with all due respect."

Thanks!

 

[bbyrd009]

so you say, yes
you will find what you seek (seek, and you will find)

but I guess "professors" reputations precede them, too?
lol

 

[Davy]

Agreed. And it wouldn't be difficult providing "proof", if you are a deceiver. Forged documents, falsified DNA tests, etc.

As for Revelation 2:9 & 3:9, I always read that differently, as more spiritual or commanded by God. By this I mean, Jesus was jewish, the first Christians were all jews. The OT jews were prophesized to concerning the coming Messiah. God was commanding jews to move from a sacrificial atonement of sins by animal blood, to Jesus' blood as the final sacrifice for sins. By this new covenant, jews were to become Christian: Galations 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male or female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus".

Some jews did convert, and Christianity spread to gentiles when the rest of the jews failed to obey God and accept the Messiah. In the roughly 2000 years since Jesus died, most jews have not converted to the new covenant/Messiah Jesus, setting up the end times when God turns his attention back to jews to eventually accept the Messiah Jesus.

So what Jesus meant, I think at least, is that those who call themselves jews in the end times, are of the "synagogue of Satan" for disobeying God and rejecting the Messiah. For if they were jews, as God's chosen people, who obey his commands, they would be "all one in Christ Jesus".

A difficult subject, but disobedient Jews against The Gospel is not really who our Lord Jesus was pointing to with the "synagogue of Satan".

Satan's Canaanite workers began creeping in among Israel early on in Israel's history (see Judges 2 & 3; Joshua 9; 1 Kings 9:20-21). During the Babylon captivity of Judah, many of the house of Judah took wives of the Canaanites, and Ezra cried when he was told of this after their return to Jerusalem (Ezra 9). Per 1 Chronicles 2:55, the Kenites, a people from the lands of Canaan, became the scribes in Israel. When the nation of Edom fell by God's hand, many of those moved into Judea and became Jews (Herod who was an Idumean from Esau). These are the ones that wanted to murder our Lord Jesus. These make up the "mystery of iniquity" Paul spoke of, and the "many antichrists" of John. They are the ones of Jude 1 that crept in unawares ordained to work against God and His Son.

 

[Davy]

Actually, the doctrine of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture goes back to the early days of the Church. If you read Irenaeus, it is clear that he believed in a Pre-Trib Rapture. There are also the writings of Ephraim the Syrian which date back to the early Church as well--and it is VERY clear from his writings that was a standard teaching.

There are also the writings of Rev. Morgan Edwards, who taught the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in the 1740's. It is simply untrue that Darby invented the Pre-trib Rapture--he merely rediscovered it. It had been "lost" by the Roman Catholics and the Reformers because both groups were antisemitic (which also goes back to the early days. There were 18 Jewish-Christian bishops from the Middle East who were excluded from the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.--so strong was the antisemitism of those days. Later, Martin Luther originally tackled Jewish evangelism with enthusiasm, but, when they resisted, he advocated burning their synagogues and houses down--with them inside! Lutherans like to ignore that portion of Luther's writings but the Nazis dug up a lot of it so that they could convince Lutherans that it was okay to persecute Jews. It is sad to note that, of 250,000 Jewish-Christians living throughout Europe at the beginning of the Nazi scourge, only a small handful survived the Holocaust to make aliyah to Israel. In the Last Judgment, those who murdered the Jews will face God's abiding wrath. The Pentecostals of the 1920s embraced the Pre-Trib Rapture as well and they are NOT Dispensationalists.

There has been Revisionism of the early Church father's writings by some of today's Pre-trib scholars who have been caught falsifying. That's obviously where you got your info about Irenaeus who believed in a post-tribulation coming of our Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church...

Irenaeus:
"But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,"(1) as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." (Irenaeus: Against Heresies, book V.30.4)

In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings."(11) It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord. (Irenaeus: Against Heresies, book V.26.1)

That idea he says of the Antichrist putting the Church to flight is not about a pre-trib rapture. It's about Christ's command for those in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see the "abomination of desolation" placed in Jerusalem by the Antichrist.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

he was lost imo because he died, and wadr I do not believe that most ppl confess jack even to themselves, let alone in those other venues. Occasionally it happens, but to characterize it as generally true is not even funny wadr. 1 in 100, maybe. if that.

1 John 4:20-->"If someone says, 'I love God' but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is a liar..." How would you even know that most people do not "confess jack even to themselves"? That is indiscriminately throwing dirt on the wheat as well as the tares. Wouldn't it be better to focus on those who are walking in the Holy Spirit and in the Truth rather than focusing on the hypocrites and scoundrels? You are much too young to be so cynical.

There have always been hypocrites and scoundrels who have declared themselves to be part of Christ's Body (just read the letters to the Seven Churches of Revelation) but I guarantee that they are not fooling Christ. Comparing ourselves to others may make us feel superior but it misses the mark of true humility which is bowing before Jesus' holiness.

What did Jesus say to Peter when he complained about his predicted demise, comparing himself to John ("What about him?")? Jesus said, "If I want him to remain [alive] until I come [again], what is that to you? YOU follow ME!" (John 21:22 emphasis mine) Keeping our eyes on Him, the author and finisher of our faith is the better path.

 

[Davy]

Have you ever considered all millennial theories are false? Including Post Millennialism? Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world and tribulation remains the norm for believers until the end of the world.

I stick to God's Holy Writ as written, not doctrines of men which you are talking about and are a waste of time. When someone speaks of ideas like yours, we are to check it out in God's Holy Writ, to see if it is written or not. Our Lord Jesus' Revelation He gave to the Church through His Apostle John shows that Jesus will reign over the nations with His elect for a "thousand years" right after His 2nd coming (Rev.20). That aligns with the rest of Bible Scripture, like Psalms 2, Zechariah 14, and that's good enough for me.

 

[Davy]

Have you ever heard of the Dark Ages? A time when between 50 - 150 Christians were killed BY ORDER OF THE CHURCH? You're preaching Jesuit Futurism. Protestant Historicism is the correct interpretation of eschatology, and shows how the "falling away" happened right on time and the "man of sin" arose and sat in the "temple of God showing himself that he is God", that temple being the church.

You've probably never heard of Protestant Historicism, right? But did you know that it was the only interpretation taught in the Christian church for over THREE SOLID CENTURIES up until only about 150 years ago when Jesuit "left behind" Futurism began to take over? Yes, it's true. Please investigate.

The subject of the OP is the time of the Antichrist appearing in a temple in Jerusalem per Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2. It is not about the so-called dark ages in Europe nor during the time of Christian persecution by pagan Rome before that.

The final event during the time of the Antichrist's appearance is our Lord Jesus' coming to destroy him. Our Lord Jesus did not return during the dark ages, nor has He returned yet to this day. So it's actually you that is following a doctrine of men that does not align with God's Holy Writ. Because if your arguments were true, then Jesus should have come to gather His Church already back then. And because it's been over a thousand years since that dark age you speak of, it shows just how far your doctrine is skewed away from God's Truth in His Word.

 

[Dave L]

I stick to God's Holy Writ as written, not doctrines of men which you are talking about and are a waste of time. When someone speaks of ideas like yours, we are to check it out in God's Holy Writ, to see if it is written or not. Our Lord Jesus' Revelation He gave to the Church through His Apostle John shows that Jesus will reign over the nations with His elect for a "thousand years" right after His 2nd coming (Rev.20). That aligns with the rest of Bible Scripture, like Psalms 2, Zechariah 14, and that's good enough for me.

What you say is not true. It is an interpretation that does not originate in scripture. You have a frame work (Dispensationalism/premillennialism) of human origin or worse, that you make scripture conform to. And thereby exploit it to fit the framework. If you learn about the nature of the kingdom from Jesus and the apostles first, they make clear that the framework is without warrant in scripture.

 

[bbyrd009]

How would you even know that most people do not "confess jack even to themselves"?

I wouldn't say that I know that, but that it seems like a fair statement based upon the evidence, particularly in view of the "court" setting
we even have a cliché for this, "there are no guilty people in prison."

Wouldn't it be better to focus on those who are walking in the Holy Spirit and in the Truth rather than focusing on the hypocrites and scoundrels?

that was a reply, and I did not make it apropos of nothing or instigate it wadr. It might be possible see that a scoundrel might advertise that they are walking in the spirit, and might say things like "ppl confess all the time," which is certainly true enough in a sense, but imo not the most accurate characterization. In my experience ppl avoid confessing like the plague, and even read "profession" for "confession," etc.

 

[Davy]

1 John 4:20-->"If someone says, 'I love God' but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is a liar..." How would you even know that most people do not "confess jack even to themselves"? That is indiscriminately throwing dirt on the wheat as well as the tares. Wouldn't it be better to focus on those who are walking in the Holy Spirit and in the Truth rather than focusing on the hypocrites and scoundrels? You are much too young to be so cynical.

There have always been hypocrites and scoundrels who have declared themselves to be part of Christ's Body (just read the letters to the Seven Churches of Revelation) but I guarantee that they are not fooling Christ. Comparing ourselves to others may make us feel superior but it misses the mark of true humility which is bowing before Jesus' holiness.

What did Jesus say to Peter when he complained about his predicted demise, comparing himself to John ("What about him?")? Jesus said, "If I want him to remain [alive] until I come [again], what is that to you? YOU follow ME!" (John 21:22 emphasis mine) Keeping our eyes on Him, the author and finisher of our faith is the better path.

Because what you have been deceived by has been shown and proved to you, that gives you the right to now lash out abusing The Word of God for your own devices in slander? It's your actions that reveal the work of a hypocrite and scoundrel. When you ought to have recognized the Truth, you instead mock, which reveals the mire you are headed for if you don't repent and come to God's Word as written instead of putting your trust in men's words.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

There has been Revisionism of the early Church father's writings by some of today's Pre-trib scholars who have been caught falsifying. That's obviously where you got your info about Irenaeus who believed in a post-tribulation coming of our Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church...

Irenaeus:
"But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,"(1) as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." (Irenaeus: Against Heresies, book V.30.4)

In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings."(11) It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord. (Irenaeus: Against Heresies, book V.26.1)

That idea he says of the Antichrist putting the Church to flight is not about a pre-trib rapture. It's about Christ's command for those in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see the "abomination of desolation" placed in Jerusalem by the Antichrist.

You may be right--I will have to investigate further. One handicap that I have is that I do not read Greek. But, in any case, it is wise to avoid basing doctrine on any one Christian's thought. Irenaeus also laid the basis for the deification of Mary (for which French Huguenots destroyed his tomb in Lyon). Here is a website that gives the history of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The History of the Pre-trib Rapture Here is another that gives arguments (please ignore that the writer calls them "proofs") for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture: Proofs Of The Pre-Tribulation Rapture