The Coming Great Apostasy

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Phoneman777

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And you attend the perfect church here on earth??
It's NOT to be found!!
.
Really?? I didn't just come out of the woods!
I said, I gave up using all "religious" terminology (religious speak) because it locks one up into their tunnel vision world of "church-ianity".
I could care less of what any "Religion" thinks!
I only care about how God THINKS- Isa. 55:8-9
Dude, if you choose to continue believing Jesuit lies after you've been shown the truth about where Futurism and Preterism came from and why they were sent into the world, then I can't help you. I'll pray for you :)
 

Phoneman777

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Correction: And you attend the perfect [visible] church here on earth??
I attend the church of today that is described in prophecy as the end time church that is to exist just before Jesus comes back. It gives the "3 Angels Messages" of Revelation 14: Worship the Creator because the Judgement hour is here, come out of fallen Babylon before the wrath of God falls on it, and don't take the Mark of the Beast, but do as God's saints do which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony and faith of Jesus.
 

Earburner

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BTW "phoneman" , just so you know, I am well aware (read it before years ago) of all you just wrote.
I even read the book "Fox's Book of Martyrs", the uncorrupted version, where they didn't leave anything out!
 

Earburner

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I attend the church of today that is described in prophecy as the end time church that is to exist just before Jesus comes back. It gives the "3 Angels Messages" of Revelation 14: Worship the Creator because the Judgement hour is here, come out of fallen Babylon before the wrath of God falls on it, and don't take the Mark of the Beast, but do as God's saints do which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony and faith of Jesus.
Hellooo! I am X-SDA, and Praising God for His deliverance!
 

Earburner

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Phoneman, you have NO idea of what is about to take place with the Vatican and ALL of visible Christianity!! At the moment, you ARE 100% clueless. Not because you can't learn of it and know, but rather your head is so full of "religious chatter" , you will choose not to hear it, so that you can stay "comfortable" with what you have been persuaded to believe!
.
It's NOT "religious" in any sense of the word!
In fact, what is going to take place, will have a very strong appeal to ALL people! Without the Holy Spirit within us, "the natural man" of ourselves, will desire to cave in to it almost immediately.
 

Davy

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Hi Davy, how are you toay?

I disagree with your first paragraph. I don't deny the information in your second paragraph, and believe that those actions could be/are still ongoing today, even within Christian churches.

As to why I disagree with the first paragraph, it is only because of the time perspective. When Jesus spoke to John the Revelator in 90-95 AD, the book begins with the following verses, Revelation 1:1-2 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw." The use of the phrase "shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass" indicates to me, the present -> future, not the present -> past/history.

Apostle Paul was one of those disobedient Jews following the "synagogue of Satan". That shows how our brethren of the house of Judah can be deceived into working with the "synagogue of Satan" while in their hearts they truly love our Heavenly Father. This is why Zechariah 12:10-14 shows they will mourn for our Lord Jesus when He returns. So we shouldn't confuse all Jews as being of the "synagogue of Satan" when those who really are serve Satan 'knowingly' and like brute beasts made to be destroyed.
 
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Earburner

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It appears to me the the anti-Christ is future and not Antiochus Epiphanes.

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;[2 Thessalonians]

This lawless one is said to be destroyed by the Christ’s second advent.
> I have already factually proved that in the Textus Receptus Greek text, the word "that" is "the" , and the word "one" is an insertion BY the translators, as so identified in the TR Greek, by the use of brackets.
.
So legitimately, Thes. 2:8 should be read as such:
8 Then the lawless [_ _ _ ] will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;[2 Thessalonians].
Therefore, when 2:8 is correctly written, it is then able to fit with the plural nature of the context of that chapter.
So, in brief:
Error: "then that lawless one will be revealed...
Correct: "then the lawless will be revealed....
 

Davy

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That's assuming the Antichrist has yet to arise, assuming the Antichrist is a single evil person who will arise and sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, assuming that that rebuilt temple is actually the "temple of God".

Well, the early Church father Irenaeus interpreted that 'man of sin' as sitting in a physical temple in Jerusalem, and he wasn't alone in that understanding. So I guess you disagree with many of the early Church fathers too. No matter, because it is impossible for Paul's "temple of God" to mean anything other than the traditional temple in Jerusalem, since per Ephesians 2 Apostle Paul taught that Christ's spiritual temple is based on a foundation of His prophets and Apostles, with Him as its Chief Cornerstone, which shows the spiritual temple cannot... be corrupted by any man. Anyone who tries to corrupt the spiritual temple is simply cut off from it, as any true Christian should be able to fathom.

Thus understanding Paul was speaking of a literal physical temple in Jerusalem for the end, with that 'man of sin' coming to play God in it, is not an assumption.

Furthermore, I have already covered in previous posts the 1 John 2:18 Scripture where John mentioned both a singular "antichrist", and the idea of the "many antichrists". I even showed how that is the same teaching our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse when Jesus warned of 'many' coming in His name only saying... they are Christ (Matt.24:4-5), which is John's idea of the "many antichrists". Then later in that same chapter, our Lord Jesus revealed the coming of a singular antichrist working great signs and wonders that if possible would deceive even His very elect. And that is John's idea of the antichrist the brethren had already heard shall come.

In 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul gave the same info, as he warned of the coming singular antichrist first associated with the falling away event, and then he mentioned the "mystery of iniquity" already being at work, which is John's "many antichrists" already at work.

And here's a little list to make that more plain that all 3 are the same Message...

1 John 2:18-
1. they heard that "antichrist" shall come -- a singular Antichrist
2. "many antichrists" already at work -- Antichrist's servants already at work in the world, i.e., like the tares of Matt.13. Start with Cain, the first murderer; that's how long they've been at work.

Matthew 24 -
1. verses 4-5 - many that come saying they are Christ. The "many antichrists".
2. verses 23-26 - the singular antichrist coming with supernatural power to deceive the whole world into believing he is Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2-
1. verses 3-4 - the man of sin as a singular antichrist, working signs and lying wonders to deceive the world that he is God.
2. verse 7 - the mystery of iniquity already at work - John's "many antichrists"


However, Paul said there was a "restrainer" preventing the rise of this "man of sin" Antichrist, and when it was "taken out of the way" the Antichrist would arise. Now, you probably think according to your Jesuit "left behind" Futurist ideas that this restrainer is "the Holy Spirit filled church" or some other agent of holiness which will be "taken out of the way" by the "secret rapture", after which this evil Antichrist dude will arise.

There is no such word as "restrainer" in the manuscripts of 2 Thess.2. The idea of restraining as a verb is used in several English translations; the KJV uses the idea of "withholdeth". Certain traditions use that "restrainer" word in their preaching, like those on a Pre-trib Rapture theory. In reality then, you're stance on that terminology as a Futurist.

And no, I do not think The Holy Spirit is the one Paul said is withholding the coming Antichrist. Nor am I a Jesuit, nor a Catholic even, so once again it's your assumptions that are way... off base. I believe in a post-tribulational coming of Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church, as written.

The one who is withholding that Paul spoke of, is most likely Archangel Michael. Per Revelation 12:7 that is who casts Satan and his angels out of the Heavenly down to this earth for the last days. Daniel 12:1 also shows Michael making a stand, and then a time on earth the likes that has never been before, nor ever will happen again, will come, linking to what Jesus warned in Matthew 24 about the time of great tribulation.

Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
KJV



The problem with all that is Paul told the early church the Restrainer was the Roman Empire, and every Early Church Father who had anything to say on this subject understood the Restrainer to be such - not some "agent of holiness" down at the end of time.

I guess you missed my quote from Irenaeus where he spoke of the coming of the Antichrist in the last days to sit in a physical temple in Jerusalem (see Against Heresies, Book V).
 

Earburner

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Apostle Paul was one of those disobedient Jews following the "synagogue of Satan". That shows how our brethren of the house of Judah can be deceived into working with the "synagogue of Satan" while in their hearts they truly love our Heavenly Father. This is why Zechariah 12:10-14 shows they will mourn for our Lord Jesus when He returns. So we shouldn't confuse all Jews as being of the "synagogue of Satan" when those who really are serve Satan 'knowingly' and like brute beasts made to be destroyed.
No need for surmising or guessing
Here is the absolute fact of who is who:
Rom. 8:9
 

Davy

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Just more "religious" distraction by "church-ianity" for the masses!

1. No "THE" Antichrist to come!
Antiochus Epiphanes came as the one and only "little horn" of the Seleucid Empire (3rd beast).
2. No Jewish temple to be built in Jerusalem! We are the Temple.
3. No numerical number "666" , because "six hundred threescore and six" is only a reference to 1 Kings 10:14. From there, we must have/gain "wisdom" from a "wise man", of WHY "six hundred threescore and six" talents of gold, was FREELY GIVEN to Solomon in one year!!
.
Go learn about "Universal Basic Income" and "Digitized money (gold)" .

Religious distraction? Irenaeus is a distraction? You really mean that what he said about a singular Antichrist coming in the last days to sit in a physical temple in Jerusalem is something you don't like to hear. Could that mean you have an agenda agreeing with the Jews who hate anyone pointing to their temple being desolated by a false one?

The "temple of God" Apostle Paul spoke of is NOT the spiritual temple of Ephesians 2 which Paul defined. How many times must I discover brethren that can't think for themselves in God's Word!!!

The spiritual temple of Ephesians CANNOT be corrupted, for it's foundation is built on the Apostles and prophets with Christ as its Chief Cornerstone! No Antichrist can sit in it!!! But in a physical temple in Jerusalem, the Antichrist can, and will sit in, and that is Apostle Paul's subject in 2 Thess.2.
 

Earburner

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Well, the early Church father Irenaeus interpreted that 'man of sin' as sitting in a physical temple in Jerusalem, and he wasn't alone in that understanding. So I guess you disagree with many of the early Church fathers too. No matter, because it is impossible for Paul's "temple of God" to mean anything other than the traditional temple in Jerusalem, since per Ephesians 2 Apostle Paul taught that Christ's spiritual temple is based on a foundation of His prophets and Apostles, with Him as its Chief Cornerstone, which shows the spiritual temple cannot... be corrupted by any man. Anyone who tries to corrupt the spiritual temple is simply cut off from it, as any true Christian should be able to fathom.

Thus understanding Paul was speaking of a literal physical temple in Jerusalem for the end, with that 'man of sin' coming to play God in it, is not an assumption.

Furthermore, I have already covered in previous posts the 1 John 2:18 Scripture where John mentioned both a singular "antichrist", and the idea of the "many antichrists". I even showed how that is the same teaching our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse when Jesus warned of 'many' coming in His name only saying... they are Christ (Matt.24:4-5), which is John's idea of the "many antichrists". Then later in that same chapter, our Lord Jesus revealed the coming of a singular antichrist working great signs and wonders that if possible would deceive even His very elect. And that is John's idea of the antichrist the brethren had already heard shall come.

In 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul gave the same info, as he warned of the coming singular antichrist first associated with the falling away event, and then he mentioned the "mystery of iniquity" already being at work, which is John's "many antichrists" already at work.

And here's a little list to make that more plain that all 3 are the same Message...

1 John 2:18-
1. they heard that "antichrist" shall come -- a singular Antichrist
2. "many antichrists" already at work -- Antichrist's servants already at work in the world, i.e., like the tares of Matt.13. Start with Cain, the first murderer; that's how long they've been at work.

Matthew 24 -
1. verses 4-5 - many that come saying they are Christ. The "many antichrists".
2. verses 23-26 - the singular antichrist coming with supernatural power to deceive the whole world into believing he is Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2-
1. verses 3-4 - the man of sin as a singular antichrist, working signs and lying wonders to deceive the world that he is God.
2. verse 7 - the mystery of iniquity already at work - John's "many antichrists"




There is no such word as "restrainer" in the manuscripts of 2 Thess.2. The idea of restraining as a verb is used in several English translations; the KJV uses the idea of "withholdeth". Certain traditions use that "restrainer" word in their preaching, like those on a Pre-trib Rapture theory. In reality then, you're stance on that terminology as a Futurist.

And no, I do not think The Holy Spirit is the one Paul said is withholding the coming Antichrist. Nor am I a Jesuit, nor a Catholic even, so once again it's your assumptions that are way... off base. I believe in a post-tribulational coming of Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church, as written.

The one who is withholding that Paul spoke of, is most likely Archangel Michael. Per Revelation 12:7 that is who casts Satan and his angels out of the Heavenly down to this earth for the last days. Daniel 12:1 also shows Michael making a stand, and then a time on earth the likes that has never been before, nor ever will happen again, will come, linking to what Jesus warned in Matthew 24 about the time of great tribulation.

Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
KJV





I guess you missed my quote from Irenaeus where he spoke of the coming of the Antichrist in the last days to sit in a physical temple in Jerusalem (see Against Heresies, Book V).
Ever since Jesus spoke of it Himself, our BODIES ARE the temple of God!!!
So, what is wrong with your understanding?
Ans.
You are leaning unto to your own understanding, through the preconceived concepts of men, no matter how long ago!!
 

Davy

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It appears to me the the anti-Christ is future and not Antiochus Epiphanes.

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;[2 Thessalonians]

This lawless one is said to be destroyed by the Christ’s second advent.
> I have already factually proved that in the Textus Receptus Greek text, the word "that" is "the" , and the word "one" is an insertion BY the translators, as so identified in the TR Greek, by the use of brackets.
.
So legitimately, Thes. 2:8 should be read as such:
8 Then the lawless [_ _ _ ] will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;[2 Thessalonians].
Therefore, when 2:8 is correctly written, it is then able to fit with the plural nature of the context of that chapter.
So, in brief:
Error: "then that lawless one will be revealed...
Correct: "then the lawless will be revealed....

Problem with that is, Apostle Paul's subject linked to that "Wicked" is the one he was speaking of in verses 3 & 4, the "man of sin" and "son of perdition".

But nice try though, at attempting to take one little phrase out of a single verse in that 2 Thess.2 chapter and change it, just to create a whole... other doctrine out of it that does not... fit Paul's context at all.
 

Earburner

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Problem with that is, Apostle Paul's subject linked to that "Wicked" is the one he was speaking of in verses 3 & 4, the "man of sin" and "son of perdition".

But nice try though, at attempting to take one little phrase out of a single verse in that 2 Thess.2 chapter and change it, just to create a whole... other doctrine out of it that does not... fit Paul's context at all.
Nice try?? I should also state of you.
I gave you factual documentation from the TR Greek, and you respond with defending your pet false doctrine?
Sorry! There is no comparison!
 

Davy

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No need for surmising or guessing
Here is the absolute fact of who is who:
Rom. 8:9

You haven't proven anything, since Apostle Paul certainly was not 'in The Spirit' when he was busy working for the Pharisees before Jesus converted him. So what I said still stands. A Jew that may be deceived and working for the "synagogue of Satan" may prove to be a true believer in our Heavenly Father, and might even be a chosen vessel later, which was Apostle Paul's case.
 

Davy

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Ever since Jesus spoke of it Himself, our BODIES ARE the temple of God!!!
So, what is wrong with your understanding?
Ans.
You are leaning unto to your own understanding, through the preconceived concepts of men, no matter how long ago!!

The "temple of God" Apostle Paul said the "man of sin" will come to sit in and play God, is NOT the spiritual temple idea of Ephesians.

If it was, then it would mean that "man of sin" would have power to corrupt even our Lord Jesus Christ!!! And that since Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone of the spiritual temple!

You simply are drunken on a false doctrine dreamed up by men and not from The Word of God.
 

Earburner

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I repeat:
Error: "then that lawless one will be revealed...
Correct: "then the lawless will be revealed....
.
Again: the word "that" is not in the TR Greek (Thes. 2:8), but the word "the" is, and should have been used in the 1611 KJV, but IT WASN'T!!
.
As for the word "one", it is found in the TR Greek being bracket, which indicates that it was AN INSERTION!!
 

Davy

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Nice try?? I should also state of you.
I gave you factual documentation from the TR Greek, and you respond with defending your pet false doctrine?
Sorry! There is no comparison!

All you did was prove something equivalent to ink on a page in The Bible. You didn't stay with the actual context and subject of the 2 Thess.2 chapter, and that's the cardinal sin you made.

The subject of 2 Thess.2:3-4 is Paul's warning about a false one coming to play God in Jerusalem in a temple for the last days. Verse 9 also shows Paul was speaking of a singular false one as that "Wicked"...

2 Thess 2:8-9
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

KJV

"Even him" is singular, and you have to go back to verse 8 and pick up the subject of that "him", which of course is "that Wicked" one which is the "man of sin" Paul spoke of earlier that is to be revealed in his time.

Learn a bit of English grammar.
 

Earburner

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Problem with that is, Apostle Paul's subject linked to that "Wicked" is the one he was speaking of in verses 3 & 4, the "man of sin" and "son of perdition".

But nice try though, at attempting to take one little phrase out of a single verse in that 2 Thess.2 chapter and change it, just to create a whole... other doctrine out of it that does not... fit Paul's context at all.
So why do you make the words "the natural man" to be in the plural?
In the Greek, the word "the" in 1 Cor. 2:14 Is an insertion, as is the word "that" in 2 Thes. 2:8- "that" Wicked.
How much do you want to ignore the fact, that BOTH 1 Cor. 2:14 and 2 Thes. 2:8 ARE to be read and understood in the plural?