The Coming Great Apostasy

[Davy]

What you say is not true. It is an interpretation that does not originate in scripture.
....

That statement couldn't get any farther away from what is actually written in God's Holy Writ.

I had earlier thought you had a keen interest in keeping to God's Word as written, but now it's obvious that's not your agenda. Your agenda appears to be of holding to doctrines some men outside of God's Word have tricked you into substituting for God's Word.

 

[Dave L]

That statement couldn't get any farther away from what is actually written in God's Holy Writ.

I had earlier thought you had a keen interest in keeping to God's Word as written, but now it's obvious that's not your agenda. Your agenda appears to be of holding to doctrines some men outside of God's Word have tricked you into substituting for God's Word.

You see only what you've been trained to see.

 

[Davy]

You may be right--I will have to investigate further. One handicap that I have is that I do not read Greek. But, in any case, it is wise to avoid basing doctrine on any one Christian's thought. Irenaeus also laid the basis for the deification of Mary (for which French Huguenots destroyed his tomb in Lyon). Here is a website that gives the history of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The History of the Pre-trib Rapture Here is another that gives arguments (please ignore that the writer calls them "proofs") for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture: Proofs Of The Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Well, I do greatly hope that you will do Bible study for yourself, and I always want others to check me out in God's Holy Writ to see if those things I say are written. I am well familiar with the origins and doctrines of the Pre-tribulational rapture theory. But I am more familiar with the order of events our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us to be watching for leading up to His return according to God's Holy Writ.

 

[Davy]

What you say is not true. It is an interpretation that does not originate in scripture. You have a frame work (Dispensationalism/premillennialism) of human origin or worse, that you make scripture conform to. And thereby exploit it to fit the framework. If you learn about the nature of the kingdom from Jesus and the apostles first, they make clear that the framework is without warrant in scripture.

I told you before that I am not... a Dispensationalist (a doctrine which John Darby created to further support the pre-trib rapture theory).

I am a Post-tribulationalist. That means your FALSE application of Dispensationalism to me reveals you don't even know what that doctrine is about!

 

[Dave L]

I told you before that I am not... a Dispensationalist (a doctrine which John Darby created to further support the pre-trib rapture theory).

I am a Post-tribulationalist. That means your FALSE application of Dispensationalism to me reveals you don't even know what that doctrine is about!

There is no 7 year tribulation.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Because what you have been deceived by has been shown and proved to you, that gives you the right to now lash out abusing The Word of God for your own devices in slander? It's your actions that reveal the work of a hypocrite and scoundrel. When you ought to have recognized the Truth, you instead mock, which reveals the mire you are headed for if you don't repent and come to God's Word as written instead of putting your trust in men's words.

Davy--

LOL--I was not "lashing out"--I actually like the young man and hope to help him in the same way that others helped me. Abusing the Word of God?? You are not being helpful when you lash out in anger and mock others in the Body. There is no "proof" as you apparently believe in your lack of humility--there is only evidence supporting an argument.

p.s. I have put you on "ignore".

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I wouldn't say that I know that, but that it seems like a fair statement based upon the evidence, particularly in view of the "court" setting
we even have a cliché for this, "there are no guilty people in prison."
that was a reply, and I did not make it apropos of nothing or instigate it wadr. It might be possible see that a scoundrel might advertise that they are walking in the spirit, and might say things like "ppl confess all the time," which is certainly true enough in a sense, but imo not the most accurate characterization. In my experience ppl avoid confessing like the plague, and even read "profession" for "confession," etc.

Martin Niemoller formed the Confessing Church during WWII as a protest against the Nazification of the Lutheran Churches there. The Laodicean Church is, unfortunately, the model of the flabby Christianity of our day. We must pray that the Holy Spirit would bring us new fire.

 

[Earburner]

There has been Revisionism of the early Church father's writings by some of today's Pre-trib scholars who have been caught falsifying. That's obviously where you got your info about Irenaeus who believed in a post-tribulation coming of our Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church...

Irenaeus:
"But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,"(1) as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." (Irenaeus: Against Heresies, book V.30.4)

In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings."(11) It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord. (Irenaeus: Against Heresies, book V.26.1)

That idea he says of the Antichrist putting the Church to flight is not about a pre-trib rapture. It's about Christ's command for those in Judea to flee to the mountains when they see the "abomination of desolation" placed in Jerusalem by the Antichrist.

Just more "religious" distraction by "church-ianity" for the masses!

1. No "THE" Antichrist to come!
Antiochus Epiphanes came as the one and only "little horn" of the Seleucid Empire (3rd beast).
2. No Jewish temple to be built in Jerusalem! We are the Temple.
3. No numerical number "666" , because "six hundred threescore and six" is only a reference to 1 Kings 10:14. From there, we must have/gain "wisdom" from a "wise man", of WHY "six hundred threescore and six" talents of gold, was FREELY GIVEN to Solomon in one year!!
.
Go learn about "Universal Basic Income" and "Digitized money (gold)" .

 

[bbyrd009]

Martin Niemoller formed the Confessing Church during WWII as a protest against the Nazification of the Lutheran Churches there. The Laodicean Church is, unfortunately, the model of the flabby Christianity of our day. We must pray that the Holy Spirit would bring us new fire.

wadr imo
you and your sons will be here with me
no Son of Man may die for another's sins
no one has ever gone up to heaven
there is only One Immortal
amounts to
I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.

 

[Earburner]

wadr imo
you and your sons will be here with me
no Son of Man may die for another's sins
no one has ever gone up to heaven
there is only One Immortal
amounts to
I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.

Location of scripture please.

 

[Earburner]

There is no 7 year tribulation.

Absolutely 100% correct!

 

[bbyrd009]

Location of scripture please.

find them twice, shame on me I guess

 

[Earburner]

find them twice, shame on me I guess

??
Where?
Thanks for being unhelpful.

 

[bbyrd009]

??
Where?
Thanks for being unhelpful.

ah, my apologies, long day...if you google those they will clarify, ok?
at most you might have to stick "bible" after the first few until the algorithm catches up with you
ps I detest google for anything else btw, they just have the best algorithm imo

 

[bbyrd009]

When someone speaks of ideas like yours, we are to check it out in God's Holy Writ, to see if it is written or not.

i'd appreciate a Quote of that "Holy Writ" thing, ty. We might have to have a discussion on the diff in "sacred" and "holy" after?

You might toss in a Quote about

outside of God's Word have tricked you into substituting for God's Word.

your inference here too if you would, that being that "God's Word" = "The Bible," ty

 

[Earburner]

ah, my apologies, long day...if you google those they will clarify, ok?
at most you might have to stick "bible" after the first few until the algorithm catches up with you
ps I detest google for anything else btw, they just have the best algorithm imo

wadr imo
you and your sons will be here with me
no Son of Man may die for another's sins
no one has ever gone up to heaven
there is only One Immortal
amounts to
I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.

It appears that you are grouping random scriptures, stringing them along together, so that you can say what YOU want it to say.
The KJV wrecks your purposeful manipulation:
Ezek.18 [19] Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
.
The Father of Jesus is God the Father. Does God the Father have iniquity?

 

[Harvest 1874]

I have said this before, for everyone's admonishment:
Years ago, I had an 8 translation NT Bible.
The confusion it brought to me, as a " Born again Christian", nearly ruined my faith and walk in the Lord! I literally tore those pages to pieces, so that no one else could ever read it! It upset me that bad!!
.
I was so upset with it, I recognized the damage that so many translations was doing to me and many others!
STOP!! Do not cross reference with many translations!
.
Do you want an EXAMPLE?
Right here alone, on this site, just look at the controversy, contention and confusion that the MANY bible translations are causing. It's DIVIDING "the brethren", which smacks of the will of satan.

Listen- reading and studying from different Greek Texts, reek havoc and confusion to every topic, of which are VERY connected.
So, if one GT supports a doctrine of what Hell is, and another GT supports a different view of what Hell is, those interpretations influence the many other topics of study, which can lead one down the path of a complete misunderstanding!
Ie- if you stand in the center of a large clock, and your goal is to reach the outer part of that circle to 12 Noon, then on your first step towards 12 Noon, MUST NOT be off in any degree, otherwise you will end up at some point between
10am or 2pm, which WAS NOT your desired goal.

My advice is not to fall for this reasoning it is a ploy of the Adversary to keep the Lord's people in ignorance to the truth as much as possible. If you have trouble with referencing various translations in your studies I would advise you to chose one good translation for general reading and one for serious study. Knowledge and understanding require study and effort.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Although Prov. 11:14 is a wonderful piece of advice, for those who live and walk in their flesh, that counsel is not how the Lord wants for his "Born Again Saints" to seek his understanding, of His words or His will.
Isa. 55:8-9 and John 16:13 is for those who walk in His Holy Spirit of truth.

The Holy Spirit does not implant knowledge in our heads, but rather guides us in our understanding of the truth, leads us to the proper sources and channels to which to aid us in our understanding.

 

[Phoneman777]

Cowardice?? I can go the distance on this topic and prove you and all as being upside down.
Yes, the Truth does cause one to run when they discover that their pet "religious" doctrines are being shattered to pieces. Are you brave enough to stay and find out?

No, friend, you can't even get up out of your corner, much less go any distance with the truth that exposes Antiochus as having nothing to do with the Little Horn.

I've shown you that Antiochus Epiphenes IV was mocked by his contemporaries as "Epimenes" which means "Madman".

I've shown you that the Little Horn "waxed exceeding great", that means it achieved exceeding greatness greater than that of Alexander the Great, Cyrus, or Darius. Antiochus Madman can't even stand in the same room with those guys.

I've shown you that the "latter time of these kings" is not when Antiochus the Crazy reigned - his was mid-way in the succession of Seleucid kings - check out for yourself.

I've shown you that Antiochus Madman and his entire chump army got pawned by a Roman envoy down in Egypt by a tiny military guard escorting robed Roman aristocrats, one of which who came out to meet Antiochus Madman, told him to leave at once, drew a circle around Antiochus and then demanded an answer from him before he stepped out of that circle - DOES THAT SOUND LIKE EXCEEDING GREAT?

I've shown you that Jerusalem pig BBQ Antiochus Madman hosted was not in any way the "Abomination of Desolation" because when Jesus directs us to Daniel's prophecy of the AoD, Jesus clearly speaks of it - the AoD - as still being a future event.

I've shown you that noun/pronoun gender agreement proves that in Daniel 8:8-9, the feminine pronoun "them" cannot possibly refer to the masculine noun "horns" - it has to refer to the sometimes feminine noun "winds". Therefore, the Little Horn doesn't come out of the Seleucid "horn", it arises outside of those horns by the testimony of Scripture that it arise out of the winds, the four points of the compass.

Here's an objective comparison of the three schools of eschatological thought - Futurism, Preterism, and Historicism - on the Little Horn of Daniel 8, if you'd like to broaden your understanding on the issue:
1844madesimple - Why Antiochus IV Is Not the Little Horn of Daniel 8

 

[Phoneman777]

Imo he did that when he committed suicide, but he did confess first anyway...so imo to make the symbology hold he had to die, after resisting grace, but as closet Mithraists we misinterpret that's to mean that he is now in the lake of fire rather than just dead?

Bc let us not forget that most Christians want and even have confidence that Jesus will literally "return" and wear that literal crown someday, do we not? And yes I'm aware of the arguments "for" ok, but I suggest they are specious, and they are "Judas."

Everytime I hear the word "symbology", I can't help but think of this scene back when I was a Hollywood watching heathen.