The Proof of Salvation

[CoreIssue]

IMO The fuss in the garden was jesus acknowledging to the father that the body(flesh) couldn’t make the hill, it was a climb only the Spirit could accomplish.

Exactly. The flesh is Jesus Christ and the spirit second person of the Trinity.

 

[Jun2u]

The whole person of Jesus died. When He met Mary Jesus said, "I have not yet ascended to MY Father"...so no "spirit" of Jesus returned to God.

Are you sure no “spirit” of Jesus ascended to be with the Father? How do you explain the verses below?

Luke 23:46
“… Father into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost”

AND

2 Corinthians 5:8
“… I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present from the Lord”

Jesus has always been God, and God cannot die. He humbled Himself and put on the form of man to redeem man of his sins. If Jesus was not God He couldn’t have been the Savior for God is the only one who can forgive sins, NEVER MAN.

To God Be The Glory

 

[CoreIssue]

On whose authority?

• Satan's declaration in the garden, "thou shalt not surely die",
• or core issue's declaration "spirits do not die",
• or Pauls declaration "only God hath immortality"?

So if anyone was eternal right, it would have been Adam and Eve. So why the tree of life, which was forbidden them in case they ate of it? And what do you think would have been the consequence of any sinner eating of the tree of life?

Because they ate from the tree of knowledge which means they would have lived in eternally sinful flesh.

The consequences would've been Satan won.

 

[Enoch111]

This thread is not about the SDA. If you want to discuss that start a new thread.

I will post the Statement of Faith of the SDA in a separated thread. There is quite a bit of orthodoxy, and then some teachings which are purely SDA.

Please see the Christian Theology Section. Their distinctive beliefs are marked in red.

 

[APAK]

I like that. If you were a missionary to Trinitarian natives, they'd get that pot boiling!

So the simple explanation is as follows:

THE FATHER IS GOD (But He is not the Son or the Spirit)
THE SON IS GOD (But He is not the Father or the Spirit)
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD (But He is not the Father or the Son)

Yet there can only be one true God, therefore Jesus brings all three together under "the Name" (Hebrew Ha Shem).

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of [1] the Father, and of [2] the Son, and of [3] the Holy Ghost...(Mt 28:19)

Well it does show your ignorance in your reply, once again Enoch. You must know you just ignored Romans 15:6 completely because you have no answer for the words of God that explicitly say your Trinity is false. So as many, to appease your Trinity filled head you just replace it with statements that are not scripture at all and in all CAPS no less for emphasis as if they really mean anything. And then you further dig a deeper hole by quoting an erroneous and common version of Matt 28:19. The correct version does not have the side notes of the Trinity added in in it. It is in 'Jesus name' or 'Jesus' son, not your so-called Trinity. It also shows you do not understand what baptism is all about if you think that you need to load in for extra security God's spirit and his role as the Father of Jesus and Jesus the son himself to made it bullet-proof like some many misled pagan writers of old.

Stop kidding yourself and hiding behind a false teaching. Answer my Romans 15:6 that says the Trinity is false. I dare you!

Blessings,

APAK

 

[CoreIssue]

Well it does show your ignorance in your reply, once again Enoch. You must know you just ignored Romans 15:6 completely because you have no answer for the words of God that explicitly say your Trinity is false. So as many, to appease your Trinity filled head you just replace it with statements that are not scripture at all and in all CAPS no less for emphasis as if they really mean anything. And then you further dig a deeper hole by quoting an erroneous and common version of Matt 28:19. The correct version does not have the side notes of the Trinity added in in it. It is in 'Jesus name' or 'Jesus' son, not your so-called Trinity. It also shows you do not understand what baptism is all about if you think that you need to load in for extra security God's spirit and his role as the Father of Jesus and Jesus the son himself to made it bullet-proof like some many misled pagan writers of old.

Stop kidding yourself and hiding behind a false teaching. Answer my Romans 15:6 that says the Trinity is false. I dare you!

Blessings,

APAK

 

[Enoch111]

Well it does show your ignorance in your reply, once again Enoch.

Now that is truly hilarious.

 

[APAK]

Now that is truly hilarious.
View attachment 5542

I though so...you are a faker man....enjoy your delusions

 

[tzcho2]

Well it does show your ignorance in your reply, once again Enoch. You must know you just ignored Romans 15:6 completely because you have no answer for the words of God that explicitly say your Trinity is false. So as many, to appease your Trinity filled head you just replace it with statements that are not scripture at all and in all CAPS no less for emphasis as if they really mean anything. And then you further dig a deeper hole by quoting an erroneous and common version of Matt 28:19. The correct version does not have the side notes of the Trinity added in in it. It is in 'Jesus name' or 'Jesus' son, not your so-called Trinity. It also shows you do not understand what baptism is all about if you think that you need to load in for extra security God's spirit and his role as the Father of Jesus and Jesus the son himself to made it bullet-proof like some many misled pagan writers of old.

Stop kidding yourself and hiding behind a false teaching.
Answer my Romans 15:6 that says the Trinity is false. I dare you!

Blessings,

APAK

Wow , no it doesn't . Just amazed at how overly confident & sneering some people are on their misinterpretations of scripture. Romans 15:6 doesn't at all say the Trinity is false.

 

[tzcho2]

One God in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?

 

[farouk]

One God in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?

The New Testament is full of God in Three Persons. (Matt. 28; John's Gospel, esp. chapters 13 - 17; Romans 8; John's First Epistle, etc.)

 

[brakelite]

The problem is SDA have teachings & interpretations of scripture-- that are outside of what the Bible states , that came from Ellen White so there's the problem.

So it is believed. Yet Ellen White had very little to do with defining of doctrine. Hey job was not to define our interpret scripture... Her work was in encouraging the then small fledgling church, mostly young people, to pray, study, and share the gospel. The basic rule they used was to let scripture interpret itself. And in those early years would often spend all night in prayer and Bible study.
Most non Adventists have not a clue what they speak of, and use others uninformed opinions as the basis for their own judgement. Nor are non Adventists very keen on discussing explicit Adventist teachings. Much easier to just wildly declare "you are in a cult and your teachings are heresy because EGW taught them." That means nothing.

 

[CoreIssue]

So it is believed. Yet Ellen White had very little to do with defining of doctrine. Hey job was not to define our interpret scripture... Her work was in encouraging the then small fledgling church, mostly young people, to pray, study, and share the gospel. The basic rule they used was to let scripture interpret itself. And in those early years would often spend all night in prayer and Bible study.
Most non Adventists have not a clue what they speak of, and use others uninformed opinions as the basis for their own judgement. Nor are non Adventists very keen on discussing explicit Adventist teachings. Much easier to just wildly declare "you are in a cult and your teachings are heresy because EGW taught them." That means nothing.

That is a complete misrepresentation of Ellen G White. Not to mention she was one of the founders of the SDA.

Proof that Ellen G. White Fails the Tests of a Prophet

 

[ScottA]

Let’s look at a simple and an explicit scripture as John’s writing seem to be very hard to understand I see, for most.

Let’s go to Paul and his Romans book. Romans 15:6 should be an easy verse to understand I would think. And yet is will prove again difficult for most because of carnal truth fixations and imaginations.

(Rom 15:6) That with one mind and with one mouth you may glorify God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (DRB) Catholic version

Now here, true believers are to glorify God with one mind and voice as Jesus taught (see verse 5). All believers should glorify God. And who is God. It says he is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Not that Jesus is the Father and God of himself. That would make no sense at all. And yet most of Christendom says Jesus is God. The Father is the only true God. Well, I guess to make the Trinity hypothesis stick, one has to just ignore the explicit meanings of such scripture as Romans 15:6b and dozens more scripture. What does Romans 15:6b say about the Trinity then? It says clearly it is false and that Jesus is not God, he is Jesus the Christ, born of his Father, God! I rest my case…

Apak,

That is all due to a misunderstanding, yes. But not that Jesus is not God, but rather that He is the Christ and Son. That distinction does not mean He is not God. It means that the acts of the Son as Christ, came forth from on high and were manifest in the lower regions we call the world. The reality is, that it is only God who could lower Himself in such a role and still remain God. The very act proves Him God. A man can neither lower himself, nor raise himself up. But God can.

So then, when Paul also said that it was no longer he who lived, but Christ who lived in him...he was not saying that he, Paul, was God...because he did neither lower himself, nor raise himself up. God alone can do such, which Jesus proved to have done.

 

[Enoch111]

I though so...you are a faker man....enjoy your delusions

Focus on true Bible doctrine and don't make hilarious comments. You have a very mistaken idea about Romans 15:6: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is completely consistent with the Trinitarian belief I already gave you.

1. God is indeed the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2. The Lord Jesus Christ is indeed the eternal only begotten Son of God.

3. At the same time, God the Father declares that Jesus is God in no uncertain terms.

HEBREWS 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

In view of this, who do you think is the faker, who denies what is explicitly revealed in the Bible?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm not so sure it IS explicit, Enoch...I know it SEEMS quite explicit to me, and to you, but...I think the natural man can't see it. I think God reveals it to men.

 

[brakelite]

Focus on true Bible doctrine and don't make hilarious comments. You have a very mistaken idea about Romans 15:6: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is completely consistent with the Trinitarian belief I already gave you.

1. God is indeed the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2. The Lord Jesus Christ is indeed the eternal only begotten Son of God.

3. At the same time, God the Father declares that Jesus is God in no uncertain terms.

HEBREWS 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

In view of this, who do you think is the faker, who denies what is explicitly revealed in the Bible?

I absolutely agree with all that is quoted...after all, it is scripture.

• Yep, God is the Father of Jesus. Jesus Himself said in prayer to His Father, "Thou art the only true God". (John 17:3)
• Yes, by nature, being God, and the Son of His Father, it stands to reason that Jesus must have eternal qualities, but does it necessarily mean Jesus is eternal in personality> If He had no beginning as a Son, does that negate the whole meaning of the word 'begotten'?

So while I agree with you in as much as you agree with scripture, do you think we need to take care how far we take things beyond scripture when we start making assumptions about Christ's nature and the relation Ha has with His Father? For example, I, like you, believe there is but one God, but in order to accept the deity of Christ, why is it necessary to accept a trinity formula in an attempt to confirm it. Isn't the simple fact that Jesus is His Father's Son sufficient evidence for His deity?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It's not about "errors" it's about that --Ellen white is not a prophet sent from God any more then Jim Jones was. Study SDA in depth and then get back to us & perhaps you can start a thread on SDA.

I don't want to study SDA in depth. I don't have a denomination. Brakelite has the Holy Spirit, as anyone who also has the Holy spirit will recognize if they spend any length of time reading his posts and conversing with him. Which brings us back to the original post by epi in this thread - we know he belongs to us because he loves us, he does not vaunt himself, he bears with us and answers gently (even when poked repeatedly with a stick).
Brakelite has some errors, I have some errors, and you have some errors. It is perfectly acceptable to talk about an error, Or errors, you think someone has. Its even better if you can show by scripture why you think its an error.
Its not acceptable to poke a man repeatedly and then shriek he cannot answer unless he goes somewhere else to do it.

 

[Enoch111]

Isn't the simple fact that Jesus is His Father's Son sufficient evidence for His deity?

That is not unreasonable, but since Jesus Himself declared "Before Abraham was I AM" we cannot avoid that Scripture, as well as the one preceding it "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM [he], ye shall die in your sins." (Note: The KJV should have capitalized "I AM" and not inserted "he", since they had already capitalized it in Exodus 3).

And the context of Exodus 3 indicates that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (with the Father and the Holy Spirit). We see below that God is shown as Elohim (God), Yahweh (the LORD), I AM THAT I AM, and I AM all in the same context, but Jesus told the Jews that He too is "I AM".

EXODUS 3
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God...
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

 

[APAK]

So, Romans 15:6 says clearly and explicitly that God, is the Father of Jesus Christ. All should agree right?

Now in John’s writing, he said of Jesus’ words: “…The Father is ‘greater’ than I…” Another explicit statement forming a firm foundation of truth together with Romans 15:6 that Jesus was and is today subordinate to God, his Father, and ALWAYS shall be.

Just a note about the English translated word ‘greater’ of John 14:28 and in 10:29, from the Greek transliterated word ‘meizon.’ It does not refer to God’s superior greatness in strength or of Truth etc., as most believe think. It is indicative of God’s eternal endless age as the source of life. God was and is the same today as tomorrow. He is the source of life, even for Jesus. Jesus was created, never his Father. Jesus told his disciplines he is going to his Father in heaven because he is the original source of life and Deity, or Godliness, and Holiness. In order Jesus to live in spirit he HAD TO go to HIS Father. In context, Jesus is saying to his disciplines on the eve of his crucifixion that His Father shall resurrect him back to life anew in him (his Father). They truly shall be one in spirit and not just in purpose and in 'separate' spirits when Jesus was a man as voice by him in John 10:30.

(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
(Joh 10:30) I and the Father are one.

As true believers we shall also be in Christ as he is in the Father. The Father then shall be in all….we shall really know this in the next life.

These are the supporting verses in the KJV:

(Joh 14:19) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

(Joh 14:20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

----------------------------------------------------------------

(Joh 14:28) You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I. (DRB-Catholic version).

(Joh 14:28) Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (KJV)

I present both scripture versions of the Catholic and KJV of John 14:28 because the latter is more in line with the original text. The KJV personalizes Jesus’ relationship with HIS Father. This is accurate. It also says that Jesus shall come AGAIN, through spirit and not physical appearance and contact.

Still, even after presenting scripture as these with explanation to folks of Romans 15:6 and John 14:28 etc, that Jesus was born of God, and God, his Father, brought him back from death, many with still attempt to immediately spin it without by parroting their hardwired beliefs of the pagan ‘incarnation’ and Trinity by misapplying other scripture as support.

It’s a never-ending-cycle of confusion and chaos. Why cannot some folks start again from scratch and pray to the spirit of God for guidance in relooking at their most cherished beliefs. They most probably are ‘dead’ wrong. How can one grow with a set of pagan belief systems fogging the mind? What have they got to lose I say, only the TRUTH!

Blessings,

APAK

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And do you see? In Brakelites previous post, he affirmed ( even though he might not be real keen on the Trinity idea) the divinity of Jesus. This is to call Jesus Lord, which is done by the Holy Spirit in a man.

And yet, the last poster has done the opposite.

If anyone merits poking repeatedly with a stick ( and no one does), should it be a man who affirms Jesus as Lord, or a man who doesn't?