OkThe process is that we gravitate toward that which we are from. Follow your own. Pick one.
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OkThe process is that we gravitate toward that which we are from. Follow your own. Pick one.
again, you reinforce the point here, yes, tySo I cannot know god exists unless I capitalize god? And I used god as a general god not a specific god so non capitalization is correct grammar.
Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. Exodus 21:20-21 NIV.
Eternal Punishment Mt 25:46
a lake of fire Rev 20:10, REV 21:8,
eternal fire, MT 25:41
Fiery furnace MT13:50
I don't know. Why does it have to be a punishment especially when he has not made it clear he exists.
Usually the legal; definition has something to do with severe emotional or physical harm. I would say beating a slave with a rod as long as they don't die within 2 days is severe physical harm.
The consequence itself. Beating a slave severely is not a moral act no matter what the salve did. That is my objection besides owning people as property.So, what is your objection for God having set a consequence for something a man "MIGHT" do to an other person?
I assume fire.Moreso I was interested in what YOU believe that MEANS for an individual ?
Like specifically what the individual will be suffering.
I mention god because we are discussing gods existence and morality. Not that I believe he exists. There are scientific explanations for the stars, moon, oceans etc. that are more convincing than god created them.Curious, that you can mention God so often, and Observe the existance of the Earth, skys, sun, moon, oceans, etc.; and say you have no clear vision of His existance.
Yes.You imply you have an option for raising your children to avoid corporal punishment.
I would presume, you made rules for your children, and they knew the consequence for disobedience of the rules. Yes?
Yes. I think it is immoral. The punishment should be moral and fit the act of disobedience. Also, some of t he slaves were slaves not by choice so they may have known the rules but had no say whether to live under them or not.However the scenario is of Master / Slave relationship.
They certainly may be two men of same size, rather than adult father and his child.
The relationship is spelled out how the relationship is established.
The rules are established by the Master.
The disobedience of the rules is known by the slave.
So, what is your point?
You do not like the punishment for rule violation?
True, but you are dodging the fact that some of the slaves were slaves not of their own choice.All that tells me is YOU would not be willing to agree to such a relationship.
Not all did.And that men IN ancient days, disagree with you, and DID agree to such a relationship.
We have moral laws that handle this situation. We don't and shouldn't implement a slave master relationship to solve this problem because it is an immoral situation. You keep avoiding the fact that some of the slaves were slaves by force not choice.So, If you TODAY, became indebted to another and could not Repay...
What would to do?
The consequence itself. Beating a slave severely is not a moral act no matter what the salve did. That is my objection besides owning people as property.
I assume fire.
I mention god because we are discussing gods existence and morality. Not that I believe he exists. There are scientific explanations for the stars, moon, oceans etc. that are more convincing than god created them.
Yes. I think it is immoral. The punishment should be moral and fit the act of disobedience. Also, some of t he slaves were slaves not by choice so they may have known the rules but had no say whether to live under them or not.
True, but you are dodging the fact that some of the slaves were slaves not of their own choice.
We have moral laws that handle this situation.
We don't and shouldn't implement a slave master relationship to solve this problem because it is an immoral situation.
If I may...We have moral laws that handle this situation. We don't and shouldn't implement a slave master relationship to solve this problem because it is an immoral situation. You keep avoiding the fact that some of the slaves were slaves by force not choice.
Morality is always an issue.Morality was never the issue.
What men MIGHT do to another man under his Authority is the issue.
Killing a man under an others Authority gave the consequence.
People are not things.Property is simply a term of having complete Authority over the thing.
Owning a person and having responsibility for another is not the same thing. If I owned my children I could beat them severely, since they are not my property I would go to jail for beating them severely. I am responsible for their well being and that means authority but not ownership.Today people are appalled of one person owning another (even the ownership of Animals in some cases). Yet there is NO question, that one person can be charged with a crime for NOT being responsible for their complete Authority over another.
Again you avoid the fact that some slaves were not voluntarily slaves but slaves by force.It's the WORDS that offend people...slave, owner, master. Even though people themselves Voluntarily GIVE other people Authority OVER THEM.
The bible indicates to me that you will be tortured by fire and be alive.And what about FIRE? Do you believe that something....like a dead body, shall suffer being in Fire?
Certainly, you have heard; eternal LIFE is the offering for a man to be Forever with God....
And there is no ETERNAL Life offered to a man Without God.
So what if a Dead body is thrown into a Fire Pit? What does a Dead body know or feel?
It came from the remnants debris from a large impact into the earth by an object of some kind. If I remember my science correctly.So off the cuff, where did the moon come from?
Yes and they are many times immoral.You hinge the punishment on morality.
God does not MANAGE a mans morality.
Some men are kind, fair, considerate...
TO their family, their employees, their servants....and some are real Bastards, to their family, employees, servants.
God simply made the rules, and the punishments thereof.
Nothing but there were real slaves at the time and these are literal rules for beating them without consequence for the owner. That is immoral and if you want to follow a god with those morals ok, but at least admit that this was the case fr non voluntary slaves.And "IF" you understood Scripture, those Mosaic "rules" / Laws have been fulfilled.
So what applied to them, in their day, has what to do with you?
My dad never did anything to me that was immoral. He never severely beat me.I am not dodging anything.
What slaves? Women, Children? He who had authority OVER THEM, decided FOR THEM.
You were once a child....WHO made decisions FOR YOU? If you dad was head of household and decided to send you off to live with another, to boarding school, to apprentice with a man owning a farm.....that would not have mattered if you agreed or objected.
You still avoid the obvious that some slaves were not indebted to the owner, they were forcibly taken into that slavery.Same thing in ancient days....the one with authority over an other made the agreements. And particularly there were adult people who made their own agreements, to resolve their own debts....(which btw was for a period of no longer than 7 years and if there was a remainer of their debt, it was forgiven).
I can surly disagree with laws and punishment in the society I live in. The fact is Exodud 21:20-21 is an immoral law no matter who commanded it.We have Laws. Laws of the Federation, Laws of the States, Laws of the Counties, cities, neighborhood and families....
As an Adult, YOU can agree and make yourself subject to the Consequences if you violate the laws....
OR
You can go to another country, state, city, neighborhood, or get a new family that is more to your liking of their laws.
Not much different IN the OT. Gods laws and Consequences were given to a PEOPLE, who Agreed to be subject to those laws and consequences. You were not given those laws or consequences, nor were you there to agree or disagree with those laws or consequences.
Because it goes to the character of the god you want me to believe in. If he existed I would have to make a choice, which really is not a choice with the threat of hell and all, to follow an immoral being and go against my morals or not and be punished for it.So, not sure of your making a big deal out of something that never applied to you, or something you had to consider whether or not you liked or agreed with.
Would you be ok being my slave under the OT rules for slavery?Perhaps I don't agree with your rules for your children or Chinese Laws or Islamic Laws...so what? I have not agree to subject myself to any of those things.
No I didn't, we have laws and court systems to arbitrate this. We don't go enslaving people because they owe a debt.But what about the man WHO CAN NOT PAY HIS DEBTS.....You avoided providing a solution.
This has nothing to do with the actual slave rules given by your god to beat them. They are immoral.If I may...
That is not the situation. The situation is that God has held a mirror up to the evils of man and demonstrated how those evils have made slaves of us all, that apart from Him, we have enslaved ourselves to many such evils.
If you stay at that level you will never understand. You are looking at symptoms, and I am explaining causes. Do you want to know what is behind the slavery symptom...or not?This has nothing to do with the actual slave rules given by your god to beat them. They are immoral.
Morality is always an issue.
People are not things.
Owning a person and having responsibility for another is not the same thing. If I owned my children I could beat them severely, since they are not my property I would go to jail for beating them severely. I am responsible for their well being and that means authority but not ownership.
Again you avoid the fact that some slaves were not voluntarily slaves but slaves by force.
The bible indicates to me that you will be tortured by fire and be alive.
It came from the remnants debris from a large impact into the earth by an object of some kind. If I remember my science correctly.
Yes and they are many times immoral.
Nothing but there were real slaves at the time and these are literal rules for beating them
without consequence for the owner.
That is immoral and if you want to follow a god with those morals ok,
but at least admit that this was the case fr non voluntary slaves.
My dad never did anything to me that was immoral.
He never severely beat me.
You still avoid the obvious that some slaves were not indebted to the owner, they were forcibly taken into that slavery.
I can surly disagree with laws and punishment in the society I live in. The fact is Exodud 21:20-21 is an immoral law no matter who commanded it.
Because it goes to the character of the god you want me to believe in.
If he existed I would have to make a choice, which really is not a choice with the threat of hell and all, to follow an immoral being and go against my morals or not and be punished for it.
Would you be ok being my slave under the OT rules for slavery?
No I didn't, we have laws and court systems to arbitrate this. We don't go enslaving people because they owe a debt.
You have said before that as I understood your argument that god instituted slavery to show us how bad slavery is and that it is not Christians fault there is slavery but instead it is atheists fault slavery exists. That is like saying I should abuse my child to show them that abuse is wrong. That is immoral in my opinion.If you stay at that level you will never understand. You are looking at symptoms, and I am explaining causes. Do you want to know what is behind the slavery symptom...or not?
But again, I am being kind. You are messing with the Creator of the universe. You are actually out of your element and have your nose where it does not belong. All of the suffering and immoral injustice that you are attempting to judge God for, was done on purpose because of people just like you. You are getting exactly what was intended. So, unless you really want to know the actual solution...you will get exactly what you deserve. Rise above the mire, or go down with it. Your choice.
Sketches don't have opinions.You have said before that as I understood your argument that god instituted slavery to show us how bad slavery is and that it is not Christians fault there is slavery but instead it is atheists fault slavery exists. That is like saying I should abuse my child to show them that abuse is wrong. That is immoral in my opinion.
Unfortunately I don't have this option. Christian values influence my life by their influence on my children textbooks, school curriculum, various laws that I may or may not agree with. So the morals Christians believe in affect my life. A rigid moral code which you are describing is problematic in my opinion. The same action could be moral or immoral in different contexts.I would say, morality is not mentioned in Scripture, but rather what is mentioned are Precepts...
Which both have meanings regarding behavior between people.
God sets the standard and principles for Precepts. You can agree and go along, or not agree and not be part of that group.
I am. People are not objects to be bought and sold or abused.It seems you are offended by a person being called a thing, or even perhaps an it.
So, it's gods morals as described in the Bible that I have a problem with.It did not in the least offend God to inform Mary of A "holy thing" in her womb.
Because owning another person and abusing them is wrong no matter what the culture is.And exactly what DOES the Law that would send you to jail have to do with 6,000 yr old Mosaic Law?
o you never addressed slaves that are slaves by force not by choice.No I did not avoid anything. You simply did not get the answer you wanted.
Mt 25:41, Mt 13:40-42, Mk 9:42-48, Rev 20:15.Perhaps you could share that Scripture.
The expansion of the universe.An impact to the Earth? Where did the Earth come from?
Because they are immoral consequences even if a deity gave them. God does not have to be moral to exist.And? So? That is behavior between men.
What's the problem with God providing consequences He is content with.....
Just as you provide the consequences in your own household?
Some rules are moral and some are not.So? There are rules for executions too, and for incarcerations, and for planting crops, and for becoming born again....
No these are not immoral acts. BTW in my opinion grounding and times outs don't work in the long run.So? If you decide the punishment for your kids is A TIME OUT, or Grounding....and you leave them in Time out TOO long, or Ground them for longer than the rule....You are promoting YOU should have a Consequence?
It is.Of course it is my Option to follow and Subject myself to whatever I choose.
I agree, I do the same.My God taught, STAY OUT OF DEBT...Because you may NOT LIKE the consequences.
Because they are not the subject of this discussion. These were real people being abused and the god you believe in said there would be no punishment for the abuse. Why should a god like this be followed?You were never subjected to the Mosaic Laws and yet whine how you dislike such Laws...which is about as funny as you disliking Chinese Laws, or Islamic Laws, or any other Jewish Laws....and spending an enormous amount of time complaining about them.
This is not the point of the discussion. The law was immoral that is something you I guess don't think is a problem or is immoral. Is severely beating a slave moral?Laws are Laws, you don't like them, don't subject yourself to them.
Right, do you not care about anyone else? Do you care about sex slaves currently in the world just because it does not affect you?I'm not a Hebrew or Jew....so what they subject themselves to has not one iota effect on me.
Not all rules are moral. This is what you are not getting. A man can be the head of the household but when he abuses his wife and kids then that is a problem and he should not be an example of a moral husband/father.Dude, how much clearer language do you require. Historically Men head of a TRIBE had authority over EVERY member of the TRIBE.
Men of a household had authority over EVERY member of the household.
Are you utterly unaware a bargain struck between a father and another man being given the fathers daughter was a Binding agreement? She became the property of the other man...and the man dictates the rules of his household.
I wrote how I determine morality in another thread I started to address this.And? who defined immoral? You, your dad, who?
What does this matter do the discussion? He never severely beat me with a rod as your bible says owners could do to slaves.Why not? Did you always do as your dad said? IF NOT, what was your Consequence?
FOR EXAMPLE....
Say your dad said to mow the lawn, and you didn't. What was your Consequence?
Slavery is subjective, as I have already said.
Give an Example of a specific Slave that has you so determined to Defend, as you say they were FORCED into being a SLAVE....
Not have slaves.You continue on your "moral" issue...(that by the way, does NOT apply to you)...
but yet you have NOT Offered your ALTERNATIVE of what "YOU" think should have been done differently.
You still refuse to acknowledge that some slaves were not debt slaves but slaves by force.Yes, it does speak to the character of God, teaching men to stay out of debt, to be true to their own word of doing what they say they will do, to subject themselves to the authority that governs over them, and be prepared for the consequences when they go into debt, when they don't keep their word, and when they refuse to submit to that which is in authority of governance over them.
It is when god is the author of hell and the system to which we are saved. He is saying follow me or be tortured forever. That is a threat.You call hell a threat. Is heaven also a threat?
I do not find fortelling a person what consequences to Expect for whatever Choices they make to be a threat.
Read my thread on this.And so, you reveal..."your morals". Guess that means YOU decide what is moral or not?
Typical.I wouldn't even consider answering that question that has no application to me whatsoever.
Yes but the entire time you have ignored the forced slaves.Well in the OT, there were rules for men who could not pay their debts to enslave themselves to pay off their debts.
This is only for willful non payment.Today, we have laws that say you can not incarcerate a person FOR a debt....but our government is so clever, they Order a person to Pay their Debt, and if they can't, the government CAN and DOES incarcerate people for Disobeying a Court ORDER...
See what a little cleverness can yield?
Eh, it is simply a fine example of corruption.
Give me sufficient evidence that god exists and then we can talk.Sketches don't have opinions.
You completely misunderstand what I have been saying.
You are a crumpled up sketch in God's garbage can (we all are), and He is standing over it saying, "Hello...up here...wakey, wakey. You blew it and that is fine if you really want to die when the trash man comes. But if not, pay attention because you are already gone, and it will take an act of God to bring you back. So, what's it going to be? Are you going to stick with your original sin idea that there is no god, or believe there is and be saved?"
So...no, there is nothing immoral about God's handling of the trash. Trash has no moral standing to make such a claim.
Welcome to your reality!
It doesn't work that way. Trash does not demand evidence from other trash. That would tend to give you a false sense of reality.Give me sufficient evidence that god exists and then we can talk.
This is nonsensical BS giving evidence to believe that you cannot demonstrate that a god exists.It doesn't work that way. Trash does not demand evidence of other trash. That would tend to give you a false sense of reality.
No, you can either come around to the reality that is actually true...or fade away with the one you "believe" is true. Ironic.
What is nonsensical, is you demanding evidence under the circumstances (which you have no understanding of and will not hear). Would you ask one of Leonardo Da Vinci's throwaway pieces to give evidence of Leonardo's existence? That is just stupid...and yet exactly what you are purposing, and you don't even have a clue that you are doing it.This is nonsensical BS giving evidence to believe that you cannot demonstrate that a god exists.
Is it moral to own another person as property? is it moral to make a woman marry her rapist? Yes/no?What is nonsensical, is you demanding evidence under the circumstances (which you have no understanding of and will not hear). Would you ask one of Leonardo Da Vinci's throwaway pieces to give evidence of Leonardo's existence? That is just stupid...and yet exactly what you are purposing, and you don't even have a clue that you are doing it.
Your loss.
There are no other persons, only One begotten. The rest is manifest creation...within you.Is it moral to own another person as property? is it moral to make a woman marry her rapist? Yes/no?
These are easy questions to answer.