The Restrainer

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Davy

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You SAY I'm twisting the scriptures, but am I really? You say that there is a 'huge' difference between Jesus 'showing his power over Satan' and 'giving his Church the ability to cast of demons'...in other words, authority over them and Revelation saying that Satan is bound against decieving the Nations.

That's right, there is a HUGE difference. For someone without... their head buried in the sand, they can easily... see how evil is STILL going on in this world, including Atheism and direct working against Christ and His Church on earth. If you say those things reveal that Christ's Kingdom has come on earth today, then it shows how you are like those Apostle Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5 that are spiritually drunken and have not remained sober (spiritually). And Paul's idea on that is truly applicable today for a lot of brethren because of their heeding the fanciful traditions of men, and are like drunks on those doctrines.


But truly...what is the purpose of both Matt 12 and Luke 10? Is it so Christ's earthly Kingdom can come now? No...obviously not. Is it so Christians will not be persecuted and martyred ever again? Clearly not.
The obvious purpose of both those passages is the gospel. Christ came to save the lost. He sends his disciples out to preach 'the kingdom of heaven', which is the good news of Christ...repent and believe in him. It is THIS message that the 'Strongman' is bound against stopping, of which the demons cannot stand against or have authority over.
And honestly, when we look at Revelation 20, and the implications of 'not being able to deceive the nations'...and what clearly happens when that ban is lifted..."he gathered them together for battle against the Saints"...
Then...I don't see it as a twisting...more like a logical conclusion.

No, the Revelation 20 Scripture is a different timeline. It is of a time in our future when everyone on earth, all nations, will SEE Jesus Christ and KNOW that He is God The Son. It is the time when every knee shall bow to Him, like Apostle Paul said. It is the time of this...

Rev 3:8-9
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied My name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

KJV

Jesus said that to the Church at Philadelphia. Those of the synagogue of Satan worshiping at Christ's elect's feet has NEVER happened yet to this day.

So what prophecy was our Lord Jesus pointing to? The Old Testament prophets, of course...


Ezek 44:23-24
23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.

KJV

Isa 29:23-24
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of Mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify My name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

KJV

How is that related to Revelation 20? That "thousand years" of Rev.20 is that time period above of their learning doctrine, and the difference between the clean and unclean, the holy and the profane. That and The Gospel is what one of the main jobs of Christ's Church will be in Christ's future Millennial reign over the nations with His elect.
 

friend of

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I think we can all agree the AC will hate religion and particularly hate Christianity and its founder.

So, if he were to claim to be Christ, would that not have a preserving effect on Christianity itself?
 
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CoreIssue

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I think we can all agree the AC will hate religion and particularly hate Christianity and its founder.

So, if he were to claim to be Christ, would that not have a preserving effect on Christiankty itself?
The AC will hate all religions but his own.

Christianity will not be there due to the rapture.
 

friend of

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I don't have time at the moment to refute all the scriptures you posted above, but I will say this.

When the AC comes he will deceive the Jewish people into believing he is their long awaited messiah, fulfillment of Judaic prophecy. How could he accomplish that if hes claiming to be Christ Jesus, whom Judaism has already rejected?
 

friend of

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The AC will hate all religions but his own.

Christianity will not be there due to the rapture.

Well, even after that, many will come to saving knowledge of Christianity. The AC will target Christianity in attempt to permanently whipe it out. If the AC were to claim to be Christ, then Christianity would then be acknowledged by the rest of the world as the real deal. However, we know that there will be a one world religion and this religion will blur the lines between all others and it will be inclusive to all others and fortified against Christianity entirely.
 
B

brakelite

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Okay, seeing we are on the subject of the Antichrist, and whether he hates religion, seeks to destroy Christianity, etc, I think you all need to consider the following.
The first breast of revelation 13 is a representative of the Antichrist. The vast majority of Christians agree on this. Do a Bible study. Compare the characteristics of that beast with the real Christ... Comparing the true Christ with the Antichrist. What do you see?
 

Phoneman777

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That is in the tribulation.
I'm pretty sure this SYMBOLIC prophecy of Revelation 12 says the woman (church)

fled in to the wilderness (remote caves, mountains, etc.)

to escape the supersonic persecution of the dragon (devil working through the papacy)

for 1,260 days (1,260 YEARS) - from the papal 538 inception to its "deadly wound" of 1,798

then emerged afterward in the "Earth" ("sparsely populated land" antithetical to the symbol of the "sea" which is "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues")

and soon after gave rise of the "remnant" (last day church that is identical to the apostolic church)

as the light of truth once again began to shine across the land and those that loved the truth chose to walk in that light, leaving behind others who preferred to remain on paths upon which the progressive movement of the light could shine no longer. It was soon after the "Earth helped the woman" that the remnant appeared and Satan turned his weapons toward her in an attempt to eradicate her once and for all - those that "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ...and the faith of Jesus".
 
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Phoneman777

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I already refuted your futurist claims. Jesuits are amillennialist.

Persecution is not require being martyred.

You are trying to desperately to defend your cult.
You keep claiming you've "refuted" something. Posting Jesuit Futurist links and statements which amount to nothing more than "I'm right/you're wrong" isn't argument. It's weak, lazy, and totally lacking any Scriptural basis.
 

Phoneman777

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Okay, seeing we are on the subject of the Antichrist, and whether he hates religion, seeks to destroy Christianity, etc, I think you all need to consider the following.
The first breast of revelation 13 is a representative of the Antichrist. The vast majority of Christians agree on this. Do a Bible study. Compare the characteristics of that beast with the real Christ... Comparing the true Christ with the Antichrist. What do you see?
Yeah, but according to CI, Satan never seeks to counterfeit Christ - never mind the fact that the papacy claims "all the names, titles, attributes of Christ...belong to the pope" LOL

Jesuit Futurism - it's to Christianity what the Trojan Horse was to the city of Troy.
 
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Phoneman777

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Says a follower of the false prophet Russell.
You're following doctrines of Jesuits! Y'know, the folks who claim the pope is "God on Earth" and "Jesus Christ, hidden under the veil of flesh" :rolleyes:
 
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CoreIssue

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That claim is nonsense.

Never heard anybody that knows anything about the Bible say that before.

David W Daniels is a KJVOnlyist. As are all of the claims come from that group.

This is your so-called proof when there is a long list of historians and archaeologists who have vouched for its authenticity.
 

Naomi25

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Just perusing a little over this thread again, and read this again, and would like to answer it, although I don't know if anyone did later.
But anyway....some things I agree with
  • Satan is bound for 1000 years.
  • He is tossed into the lake of fire at the end of that 1000 years, thus cannot be any time else
  • At the second coming, God's people from all ages are raised, and those who are alive are changed...for them, no more death.
Things I disagree with....
  • That 1 Corinthians 15 infers the end of the devil
  • And that therefore the lake of fire must be at the second coming.
  • And therefore the 1000 years must finish at the second coming.
Wow, there is a LOT in this post, and I don't think I can address every point.
We can put aside, obviously, what we agree on, but, considering that you DO agree, particularly on the last point, I think my focus here is on how you view what you disagree on.
IF we see believers, both dead and alive rise, change, and go 'beyond death' (1 Cor 15:23-55; 1 Thess 4:16-18;), AND 1 Cor 15 tells us that when this happens death, the final enemy is defeated...what then are we to think about other things? How can there be any enemy left after death? If Satan is yet to be defeated, then HE would be the final enemy, would he not?
And...how are we to understand Rev 20 when we see that "death and Hades" are thrown into the lake of fire...which is AFTER Satan has been thrown there, by the way. If the Lake of fire is 'the second death', which we must infere to be a final defeat...it is Satan's final defeat; once he goes in there, he is completely done....then should we not also understand that moment to be 'deaths' final defeat? Which would bring us back to that moment in 1 Cor 15...the moment we receive our glorified bodies and death 'looses its sting'? And, we are told this happens at Christ's return.
Truly...I am not sure how else we can view these things...not without changing the meaning of either 1 Cor 15 or Rev 20...

Here is the sequence of events as I see them, and you can judge whether it is according to the Bible or not...
  • Satan not bound now. Has had limited reign as prince of the power of the air since usurping kingship of the planet from Adam.
  • Lost all legal rights to that title at Calvary.
  • Maintains tenacious grip over the planet while he still lives...is in denial of the legalities until such time as he is physically removed...at the end of the millennium.
  • Christ comes. He does not touch the ground. The saints meet Him in the air, and all the saints, both past and present, are glorified.
  • Saints spend 1000 years ruling and reigning with Christ in heaven, judging angels and finding out all the answers to questions which will completely satisfy them as to God's purposes and God is completely vindicated in all things.
  • The earth is ruined by the ravages of war, the plagues, and overwhelming natural disasters of the previous 6000 years of desolation which leaves the earth empty, void, desolate, as per many passages of scripture. Satan is bound by circumstances that prohibit his influence and power
  • During this time he is left alone to contemplate all he has been responsible for throughout history. This is not remedial, but part of his ultimate sentencing.
  • At the end of the 1000 years, all the saints return to the earth in the city New Jerusalem which settles on its former site now made a plain.
  • It is surrounded by the devil,now loosed having people to tempt again which he does by inciting his demons and all the resurrected wicked, who together face their final sentencing for sin
  • That sentence is precisely what the Bible warns them of...death.
  • In desperation, they, Gog and Magog, attack the city in order to overtake it...their only hope...
  • fire rains down and destroys them all according to their deeds done while on this earth. Satan of course will suffer the longer. This is the lake of fire. It is on the earth. It is only temporary until such time as it is devoid of anything to burn.
  • Thus the earth is now cleansed completely of all its pollutants...the universe is cleansed of all sin and sinners...and now God has a blank canvas to recreate the new heavens and the new earth...which the meek shall inherit...and the earth becomes the capital of the universe with the throne of God and the Lamb in it.
  • And praise God there is no continuing "hell" anywhere to mar the universe of God by its constant suffering and cursing and evil. The wages of sin truly is death.
Under the above scenario, there is no need of a prost millenium second coming...pre-trib rapture.
I'm sorry, but I simply don't have time to walk through this...either my own view, step by step, or how I agree or disagree with this. But...I would be interested, to have for later viewing, something similar...step by step...but with bible verses that show these events as well.
Thanks!
 

Naomi25

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That's right, there is a HUGE difference. For someone without... their head buried in the sand, they can easily... see how evil is STILL going on in this world, including Atheism and direct working against Christ and His Church on earth. If you say those things reveal that Christ's Kingdom has come on earth today, then it shows how you are like those Apostle Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5 that are spiritually drunken and have not remained sober (spiritually). And Paul's idea on that is truly applicable today for a lot of brethren because of their heeding the fanciful traditions of men, and are like drunks on those doctrines.

Eh! Look, if you're going to disagree with me, at least make an effort to get what I claim right. I don't claim that "all evil" will be gone. I don't even claim that any evil will be gone. Just Satan's ability to hinder the march of the gospel.
And in point of fact, where do we see the gospel spreading the fastest and furtherest? It actually happenes to be in places where we DO see evil. Christ's promise to 'bind' the strongman is not to keep his followers safe from harm, it's that he will see his Church grow in SPITE of it. It's people's souls, not their bodies that he cares to save, ultimately.

No, the Revelation 20 Scripture is a different timeline. It is of a time in our future when everyone on earth, all nations, will SEE Jesus Christ and KNOW that He is God The Son. It is the time when every knee shall bow to Him, like Apostle Paul said. It is the time of this...

Rev 3:8-9
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied My name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

KJV
Well...no. Actually, in the first part of Rev 20, we see nothing about 'the nations' apart from the fact that Satan is stopped from decieving them. Then, when he is released, we see him gathering them together to battle against the Saints and the 'beloved city'.
I wouldn't say that is them seeing Christ and knowing him...bowing to him.
Where do we see them do this? Goodness...I believe it is AFTER Satan has been defeated finally and tossed into the Lake of Fire.
So, you know, the 'timeline' still fits my view.

Jesus said that to the Church at Philadelphia. Those of the synagogue of Satan worshiping at Christ's elect's feet has NEVER happened yet to this day.

So what prophecy was our Lord Jesus pointing to? The Old Testament prophets, of course...


Ezek 44:23-24
23 And they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to My judgments: and they shall keep My laws and My statutes in all Mine assemblies; and they shall hallow My sabbaths.

KJV

Isa 29:23-24
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of Mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify My name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

KJV

Yes it is a reference to OT passages, but not to those.

Thus says the LORD:
“The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush,
and the Sabeans, men of stature,
shall come over to you and be yours;
they shall follow you;
they shall come over in chains and bow down to you.
They will plead with you, saying:
Surely God is in you, and there is no other,
no god besides him
.’” -Isaiah 45:14


Kings shall be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
With their faces to the ground they shall bow down to you,
and lick the dust of your feet.
Then you will know that I am the LORD;
those who wait for me shall not be put to shame.” -Isaiah 49:23


The sons of those who afflicted you
shall come bending low to you,
and all who despised you
shall bow down at your feet;
they shall call you the City of the LORD,
the Zion of the Holy One of Israel. -Isaiah 60:14



And then when we look at the Revelation verse we see it is very similar:


Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. -Revelation 3:9

What we are seeing here is a promise from God...once given to the Jews...a promise that Gentiles would come to honor the Jews. But...is that what history has seen? What the Jews have seen since the days of Isaiah? The Jews have seemingly been passed from one conquering King to the other, always persecuted, always hated. How can this promise be true?
It is true through Christ. The 'Gentile' Church makes up a multitude, and we all honor the people of the bible...the people that bought Christ to us...the forefathers, the Disciples. Truly, through the 'seed of Abraham' they have indeed been a blessings to all nations.

So, when we come to Revelation, we are suddenly turned on our head...it's an about face. Here, God is promising a predominantly Gentile church that the Jewish people, who have been persecuting the fledgling Church...whom Paul has taught them have been 'removed from the Olive tree in disbelief', so are clearly not 'Jews' anymore, not in the biblical sense, that it will be their turn to recognize the Gentiles.
This brings us back to Romans 11, and where Paul tells us that salvation has come to the Gentiles to make 'Israel' jealous! To be jealous one must first covet what someone has...
And that brings us to the second unifying part of all these verses....they're not really about having people 'bow' before us. They're about God being recognized as the One True God. Because, he doesn't truly want Gentiles bowing before Jews in worship, or vise versa...we are to only worship God. No...the 'bowing' metaphor is only in use to show recognition and respect, because we point to a greater truth. Just as Israel in the OT pointed always to a greater truth, so the Church points to a greater truth; Christ. And whenever a Jewish person comes to Christ, he also recognizes that we; the Gentiles, we shining a light that he should have been. That is, I would expect, a humbling moment. We did NOT have the prophets or the scriptures.

How is that related to Revelation 20? That "thousand years" of Rev.20 is that time period above of their learning doctrine, and the difference between the clean and unclean, the holy and the profane. That and The Gospel is what one of the main jobs of Christ's Church will be in Christ's future Millennial reign over the nations with His elect.
Except...you're ignoring everything the NT reveals to us about these things in light of Christ's coming and work. To say that we need to look back and consider 'clean and unclean' when God tells Peter that he has made all things clean, is to ignore the work of Christ and the clear command of God.
So...you're barking up the wrong tree entirely.
 
B

brakelite

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IF we see believers, both dead and alive rise, change, and go 'beyond death' (1 Cor 15:23-55; 1 Thess 4:16-18;), AND 1 Cor 15 tells us that when this happens death, the final enemy is defeated...what then are we to think about other things? How can there be any enemy left after death? If Satan is yet to be defeated, then HE would be the final enemy, would he not?
The end of Satan's power and influence over us ceases completely as we are literally translated into the presence of Jesus. Yes, I know the same could be said of Calvary...Pentecost, whatever, but until the resurrection, it is all of faith and apprehending it spiritually making that victory a part of our lives...at the resurrection, what was of faith now becomes the literal realisation and reality. We are finally utterly free of him. BUT, that does not mean the end of him as an individual living conscious angel yet filled with hatred and vindictive pride and murder. That we are now finally and irrevocably out of his reach, doesn't mean he ceases to exist. That we have already been judged worthy of redemption and are finally saved (note that judgement must take place before, not after the second coming, a subject we can tackle another day) and are in the process of realising our destiny as face to face subjects to the King, does not mean that the devil has yet been finally judged according to his works. That comes at the end of the 1000 years...the thrown into the fire bit etc. The final hell (grave) and death into the lake along with all the wicked who have ever lived completely and utterly frees the entire universe of any hint or remaining memory of the evil that inflicted God's creation. The only reminder will be the imprints of the nails and scars on our Saviour.
Just a reminder, when he is loosed from his bondage, at the end of the 1000 years, Satan cannot touch us, God's people. We are safe. Perfectly protected and secure inside the city which had just descended out of heaven. The only ones outside the city are the lost...the wicked who have just been raised to face their final sentencing. (The fact the sheep and goats have already been divided, again, this had to take place prior to the second coming) means that second death applies only to the wicked...it is their second death which has no power over us.
The old saying, born twice die once, born once die twice, applies here. But real death Naomi...not life in torment. That lake of fire...the fire which rains down from heaven upon all the wicked, and the devil, and the demons...destroys everything. God does not plan to immortalise sin nor does he confer immortality/eternal life on sinners. They die. Thus it is at that time, at the end of the 1000 years, that metaphorically hell, death, and all God's enemies are drowned...permanently.
 

Phoneman777

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That claim is nonsense.

Never heard anybody that knows anything about the Bible say that before.

David W Daniels is a KJVOnlyist. As are all of the claims come from that group.

This is your so-called proof when there is a long list of historians and archaeologists who have vouched for its authenticity.
The Critical Text is based on corrupt MSS. The Textus Receptus of the Protestant Reformation was, is, and always will be the most accurate representation of what God intended His people to hold in their hands.

No matter how much you Jesuit sympathizers complain, you will NEVER overthrow the truth of God's Word with your pathetic pseudo-Bibles. Codex Sinaiticus was found in the garbage, which is a shame - it would have been better suited for use as toilet paper.
 

CoreIssue

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The Critical Text is based on corrupt MSS. The Textus Receptus of the Protestant Reformation was, is, and always will be the most accurate representation of what God intended His people to hold in their hands.

No matter how much you Jesuit sympathizers complain, you will NEVER overthrow the truth of God's Word with your pathetic pseudo-Bibles. Codex Sinaiticus was found in the garbage, which is a shame - it would have been better suited for use as toilet paper.
You refuse to address the point that the TR was written by a Catholic priest.

You who has a prophetess establishing your religion and telling you what to believe.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Yeah, but according to CI, Satan never seeks to counterfeit Christ - never mind the fact that the papacy claims "all the names, titles, attributes of Christ...belong to the pope" LOL

Jesuit Futurism - it's to Christianity what the Trojan Horse was to the city of Troy.
And what the Antichrist Catholic church was to God's people in the, 3rd century on. Constantine brought it into the gates... Justinian granted it citizenship... The reformation warned everybody not to expose is belly and open the doors... Darby et Al opened those doors and invited all inside to the wedding
...Modem Protestantism has day down to lunch with the demons, the foul birds and the beast itself.

You refuse to address the point that the TR was written by a Catholic priest.
He did after it quite fully, succinctly and clearly. Either you missed it or have chosen to ignore it. Your problem not his.
You who has a prophetess establishing your religion and telling you what to believe.
If there was anything she told Adventists to believe above all and everything else, including her own writings, was the Bible. A pity more, like you for instance, aren't doing so much
 
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CoreIssue

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And what the Antichrist Catholic church was to God's people in the, 3rd century on. Constantine brought it into the gates... Justinian granted it citizenship... The reformation warned everybody not to expose is belly and open the doors... Darby et Al opened those doors and invited all inside to the wedding
...Modem Protestantism has day down to lunch with the demons, the foul birds and the beast itself.


He did after it quite fully, succinctly and clearly. Either you missed it or have chosen to ignore it. Your problem not his.

If there was anything she told Adventists to believe above all and everything else, including her own writings, was the Bible. A pity more, like you for instance, aren't doing so much
Once again Seventh-day Adventist doctrine.
 
B

brakelite

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@CoreIssue For example...But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority—not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith.Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support
EGW