Please explain this.

[GodsGrace]

Hello @GodsGrace,

Ephesians 3:9 speaks of a secret (or mystery) and so does Colossians 1:26 and Romans 11:25 (sorry about the typo). Just read them as they stand, and acknowledge the fact that a secret or mystery is spoken of within them, that is the only reason I quoted them, in response to your previous entry.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Chris

But I've read them many times and they support what I said.
I've told you what the secret is...there is no other secret.
I've acknowledged not only what they say,,,,but said it before you even posted them!

We need to stop discussing this.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace This is not going to be entirely popular. Students of Christian history...See that Christ had several fronts to His ministry. He was there for the Jews...but also the Pagans. (Pagans before converting to Christianity, Gentiles after conversion.) Which is why it is said He came
to save the world. At times He is talking to and relating to these different people, as Paul was mostly working with the Gentiles. Christ had a daunting task. He could not say to the Jews, that He was the Son of God, the Gentiles would have less problems with this. The Jews would kill Him on the spot. Matthew is a Jewish-Christian his writings are pointed to the Jews. John has a different understanding which is good and mostly points to the Gentiles. Matthew and John are of the twelve, Mark and Luke are not. Mark is associated with Peter and Luke with Paul. There are different perspectives and approaches in the Gospels. Maybe some of the details were not intended to be laid out in the Gospels and would wait for Paul to address them. Some of what I see discussed here is taking exception to these different perspective and approaches. When you look into what was going on it makes sense.

I agree.
I'm not saying that Paul spoke incorrectly.
In the New Covenant our righteousness is through Christ.
In the O.T. it was earned individually by the person.

What I'm saying is that Jesus never made a point of this and spoke mainly about how we are to behave and things we are to do.

We can't them take what Paul taught and REJECT what Jesus said...
which is what I see happening here and in many other discussions.

IOW, we cheapen God's word by making it TOO EASY....Easy Believism.
Just believe in Jesus and all will be fine....this is NOT what Jesus said.

Aside from the fact that we don't even want to understand what believe meant at the time of our Lord.

 

[Grailhunter]

I agree.
I'm not saying that Paul spoke incorrectly.
In the New Covenant our righteousness is through Christ.
In the O.T. it was earned individually by the person.

What I'm saying is that Jesus never made a point of this and spoke mainly about how we are to behave and things we are to do.

We can't them take what Paul taught and REJECT what Jesus said...
which is what I see happening here and in many other discussions.

IOW, we cheapen God's word by making it TOO EASY....Easy Believism.
Just believe in Jesus and all will be fine....this is NOT what Jesus said.

Aside from the fact that we don't even want to understand what believe meant at the time of our Lord.

My friends say I am a hard a... But we do not want to make it too hard. Christ and the Apostles were not working with the educated. The New Testament was not written yet so they did not even have Bibles. Simple stuff worked best....BE GOOOD! I agree with you that becoming a Christian should be a change of life. A study of morality and the application of the same. I have had people come to me and ask advise and one was about a lesbian sister and the other a brother that was a drunkard. They said they did not know how to approach them and did not feel comfortable inviting them to church. I told them that every preach wants to have a fine upstanding congregation...but that is not how Christ work. Christ would go to the tavern and drink and sing hymn to them, and then invite them to church. And He more or less did this. A person's issues are between Christ and them. That brother came with his sister nearly every Sunday, but it took him nearly a year to stop drinking. Repentance is not always an instant thing. We are privileged, if Christ loves us enough to work us through it.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Such a long reply without knowledge. Jesus came to the Jews ONLY who were under the law of Moses. If the Jews had believed in Him they would have accepted their Messiah and King, But they, THE JEWS, did not believe Him. Stop taking what Jesus said to the Jews for your salvation because no one will be saved under the law of Moses.

This is not saying that Jesus did not have a separate reason for coming but the reason was HIDDEN in God and revealed to Paul. That reason is/was that Jesus would pay for all the sins of the world. You want find that in the 4 gospels. It was only revealed to Paul.

James 1:25-27
[25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. [26] If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. [27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

You still didn’t answer the question of why James speaks of looking into the Law of Liberty? And this man, He who looks into that Law of Liberty will be blessed in his deed? Problem is making James words (spoken of by the Spirit) remain dead and not containing Life. Maybe that is what you hear but those verses above are not dead words but alive. To assert the words were ONLY meant to the Jews and James contradicts Paul, is viewing it from death. Jesus told them they had not heard the voice of the prophets nor His voice or they would not have killed Him. Even though His message was hidden in the OT ...that doesn’t mean the message, His voice and the prophets are not there. Same with James. Just because one may say life is not within the words spoken of the Spirit through James ...doesn’t make it so. “If a man can’t bridle his tongue” James asserts “this man’s religion is vain” meaning without profit, without Resurrection Spirit, void, coming down as to profit NOTHING. Gaining the whole world but losing what does increase which is the Law of Liberty in Christ. “Pure religion” “undefiled before God” is in visiting the fatherless and widows. “Pure” is a word only spoken of Life in the resurrection work of the Spirit of God. Those without a Father meaning no earthy father but the ONLY Father that is pure which is God. The widows are those widows indeed whose husband is dead and they are free to marry another...the only pure religion ...”undefiled” before God is the resurrected Christ moving from condemnation to peace. Unspotted from the world. There is no other “religion” that is “pure” but His doctrine which is the doctrine of God (the Father)who sent “this is the work of God that you believe in him who He sent”

Now I’m sure you’ll come back with an argument but that is okay. The obvious you cannot and will not be able to dispute and that is this: Paul was ‘a doer’ not only ‘a hearer’ of the word. Paul also obviously looked into the Law of Liberty which is Christ and continued therein that Law of Liberty which is the resurrected Son and was blessed in deed. he was kept unspotted from the world...visited the fatherless and the widows of the mosaic Law free to marry Christ ...and Paul kept the word. Going as far as to say: 1 Corinthians 4:15-16
[15] For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. [16] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

That should be obvious to anyone looking into the Law of Liberty. Paul was a ‘doer’ of the Word not just ‘a hearer’ but endured until the end. Also you can’t dispute those born of God are to prove what is acceptable unto the Lord, reproving the works of darkness in deed. Philippians 1:8-11 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. [9] And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; [10] That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; [11] Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Romans 3:31
[31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Do we make the Law (flesh: void and Unprofitable coming to nothing) through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law—Rule (in Spirit, profitable for every good work created in Christ, the ONLY name which endures.)

 

[charity]

@GodsGrace
@Grailhunter

Hello there,

I feel it is such a shame that this should be a matter of disagreement. I believe that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us, yes, He died for the ungodly.

'For what saith the scripture?
Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.'
(Romans 4:3-7)

'What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death,
we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: ... '
(Romans 6:1-5)

'Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:
but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead,
and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are not under the law, but under grace.'
(Romans 6:9)

*,We are not saved by good works but we are saved unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Grailhunter]

@GodsGrace
@Grailhunter

Hello there,

I feel it is such a shame that this should be a matter of disagreement. I believe that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us, yes, He died for the ungodly.

'For what saith the scripture?
Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.'
(Romans 4:3-7)

'What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death,
we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: ... '
(Romans 6:1-5)

'Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:
but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead,
and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are not under the law, but under grace.'
(Romans 6:9)

*,We are not saved by good works but we are save unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

@charity
I guessss you know that we don't think that any works saves....but the saved should support their church and do Good Deeds.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace This is not going to be entirely popular. Students of Christian history...See that Christ had several fronts to His ministry. He was there for the Jews...but also the Pagans. (Pagans before converting to Christianity, Gentiles after conversion.) Which is why it is said He came
to save the world. At times He is talking to and relating to these different people, as Paul was mostly working with the Gentiles. Christ had a daunting task. He could not say to the Jews, that He was the Son of God, the Gentiles would have less problems with this. The Jews would kill Him on the spot. Matthew is a Jewish-Christian his writings are pointed to the Jews. John has a different understanding which is good and mostly points to the Gentiles. Matthew and John are of the twelve, Mark and Luke are not. Mark is associated with Peter and Luke with Paul. There are different perspectives and approaches in the Gospels. Maybe some of the details were not intended to be laid out in the Gospels and would wait for Paul to address them. Some of what I see discussed here is taking exception to these different perspectives and approaches. When you look into what was going on it makes sense.

I see what you mean and of course you're right.
Many times Jesus would heal someone and tell them to be quiet about it.
He did teach the Apostles in private as we read, when for instance, he would explain a parable to them. I do believe Jesus might have taken advantage of these moments but I also believe the Apostles did not understand a lot of what He said.

I go a lot by the Covenants.
I know them and must say they've helped me to understand the bible better.
I think it's important to know the difference between the "old" Mosaic Covenant and the New and everlasting Covenant --- since it would be the last one and would be lasting throughout till the end days.

When I hear someone say that we are under grace it sometimes sounds like they're saying we are under no obligation.

God gives us grace to be strong in our faith and to do what we should do as believers. If we need more grace, we get more grace. If we don't even use what grace we have...we will get no more.

Faith alone is a modern idea and did not exist in early Christianity.
I believe it's an incorrect teaching and might lead some to their sad end.

Here is what some important Early Fathers, or theologians, believed about works and salvation...incl Clement of Rome who was a disciple of Paul and a friend of Peter.

Ignatius was a disciple of Peter and a friend of John.

Barnabas almost made it into the N.T.

Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp...a disciple of John


The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. . . . He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works. Barnabas (c. 70-130), 1.148, 149.

We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.

. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105), 1.51-55.

Therefore, brethren, by doing the will of the Father, and keeping the flesh holy, and observing the commandments of the Lord, we will obtain eternal life. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.519.

Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them. Hermas (c. 150), 2.25.

We . . . hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that those who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. . . . Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.165, 166.

We will give account to God not only of deeds (as slaves), but even of words and thoughts (as being those who have truly received the power of liberty). For under liberty, a man is more severely tested as to whether he will reverence, fear, and love the Lord. . . . God desires obedience, which renders [His worshippers] secure—rather than sacrifices and burnt-offerings, which avail men nothing toward righteousness. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.482.

When we hear, "Your faith has saved you," we do not understand Him to say absolutely that those who have believed in any way whatsoever will be saved. For works must also follow. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195), 2.505.

source: What the Early Christians Believed About Salvation - chasingalion.com

 

[GodsGrace]

My friends say I am a hard a... But we do not want to make it too hard. Christ and the Apostles were not working with the educated. The New Testament was not written yet so they did not even have Bibles. Simple stuff worked best....BE GOOOD! I agree with you that becoming a Christian should be a change of life. A study of morality and the application of the same. I have had people come to me and ask advise and one was about a lesbian sister and the other a brother that was a drunkard. They said they did not know how to approach them and did not feel comfortable inviting them to church. I told them that every preach wants to have a fine upstanding congregation...but that is not how Christ work. Christ would go to the tavern and drink and sing hymn to them, and then invite them to church. And He more or less did this. A person's issues are between Christ and them. That brother came with his sister nearly every Sunday, but it took him nearly a year to stop drinking. Repentance is not always an instant thing. We are privileged, if Christ loves us enough to work us through it.

You know that you and I mostly agree...
Sometimes it's language...sometimes its a small nuance.
I agree with the above...
I'll only add that repentance is instant...our direction changes the moment we decide for God...

The EFFECT of that repentance could be immediate or could take years.
No problem...as long as we keep on the road toward God.

 

[Grailhunter]

You know that you and I mostly agree...
Sometimes it's language...sometimes its a small nuance.
I agree with the above...
I'll only add that repentance is instant...our direction changes the moment we decide for God...

The EFFECT of that repentance could be immediate or could take years.
No problem...as long as we keep on the road toward God.

Some believe that repentance is a change of actions...some believe it is a change of mind. It has a meaning of "turn around or turn away?
I will not split hairs about it.

 

[GodsGrace]

James 1:25-27
[25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein , he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. [26] If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. [27] Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

You still didn’t answer the question of why James speaks of looking into the Law of Liberty? And this man, He who looks into that Law of Liberty will be blessed in his deed? Problem is making James words (spoken of by the Spirit) remain dead and not containing Life. Maybe that is what you hear but those verses above are not dead words but alive. To assert the words were ONLY meant to the Jews and James contradicts Paul, is viewing it from death. Jesus told them they had not heard the voice of the prophets nor His voice or they would not have killed Him. Even though His message was hidden in the OT ...that doesn’t mean the message, His voice and the prophets are not there. Same with James. Just because one may say life is not within the words spoken of the Spirit through James ...doesn’t make it so. “If a man can’t bridle his tongue” James asserts “this man’s religion is vain” meaning without profit, without Resurrection Spirit, void, coming down as to profit NOTHING. Gaining the whole world but losing what does increase which is the Law of Liberty in Christ. “Pure religion” “undefiled before God” is in visiting the fatherless and widows. “Pure” is a word only spoken of Life in the resurrection work of the Spirit of God. Those without a Father meaning no earthy father but the ONLY Father that is pure which is God. The widows are those widows indeed whose husband is dead and they are free to marry another...the only pure religion ...”undefiled” before God is the resurrected Christ moving from condemnation to peace. Unspotted from the world. There is no other “religion” that is “pure” but His doctrine which is the doctrine of God (the Father)who sent “this is the work of God that you believe in him who He sent”

Now I’m sure you’ll come back with an argument but that is okay. The obvious you cannot and will not be able to dispute and that is this: Paul was ‘a doer’ not only ‘a hearer’ of the word. Paul also obviously looked into the Law of Liberty which is Christ and continued therein that Law of Liberty which is the resurrected Son and was blessed in deed. he was kept unspotted from the world...visited the fatherless and the widows of the mosaic Law free to marry Christ ...and Paul kept the word. Going as far as to say: 1 Corinthians 4:15-16
[15] For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. [16] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

That should be obvious to anyone looking into the Law of Liberty. Paul was a ‘doer’ of the Word not just ‘a hearer’ but endured until the end. Also you can’t dispute those born of God are to prove what is acceptable unto the Lord, reproving the works of darkness in deed. Philippians 1:8-11 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ. [9] And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; [10] That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; [11] Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Romans 3:31
[31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Do we make the Law (flesh: void and Unprofitable coming to nothing) through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law—Rule (in Spirit, profitable for every good work created in Christ, the ONLY name which endures.)

Great post.
Let me just add that James is not written ONLY TO THE JEWS.
WHO were the Jews anyway?
They were the Jews who had accepted Christianity and were dispersed in different nations.

Hence...it was still written to the Christians.

 

[Grailhunter]

I see what you mean and of course you're right.
Many times Jesus would heal someone and tell them to be quiet about it.
He did teach the Apostles in private as we read, when for instance, he would explain a parable to them. I do believe Jesus might have taken advantage of these moments but I also believe the Apostles did not understand a lot of what He said.

I go a lot by the Covenants.
I know them and must say they've helped me to understand the bible better.
I think it's important to know the difference between the "old" Mosaic Covenant and the New and everlasting Covenant --- since it would be the last one and would be lasting throughout till the end days.

When I hear someone say that we are under grace it sometimes sounds like they're saying we are under no obligation.

God gives us grace to be strong in our faith and to do what we should do as believers. If we need more grace, we get more grace. If we don't even use what grace we have...we will get no more.

Faith alone is a modern idea and did not exist in early Christianity.
I believe it's an incorrect teaching and might lead some to their sad end.

Here is what some important Early Fathers, or theologians, believed about works and salvation...incl Clement of Rome who was a disciple of Paul and a friend of Peter.

Ignatius was a disciple of Peter and a friend of John.

Barnabas almost made it into the N.T.

Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp...a disciple of John


The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. . . . He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works. Barnabas (c. 70-130), 1.148, 149.

We are justified by our works and not our words. Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.13.

. . . that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that you are indeed the members of His Son. . . . Faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. . . . The tree is made manifest by its fruit. So those who profess themselves to be Christians will be recognized by their conduct. . . . It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not be one. Ignatius (c. 105), 1.51-55.

Therefore, brethren, by doing the will of the Father, and keeping the flesh holy, and observing the commandments of the Lord, we will obtain eternal life. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.519.

Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them. Hermas (c. 150), 2.25.

We . . . hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that those who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. . . . Each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.165, 166.

We will give account to God not only of deeds (as slaves), but even of words and thoughts (as being those who have truly received the power of liberty). For under liberty, a man is more severely tested as to whether he will reverence, fear, and love the Lord. . . . God desires obedience, which renders [His worshippers] secure—rather than sacrifices and burnt-offerings, which avail men nothing toward righteousness. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.482.

When we hear, "Your faith has saved you," we do not understand Him to say absolutely that those who have believed in any way whatsoever will be saved. For works must also follow. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195), 2.505.

source: What the Early Christians Believed About Salvation - chasingalion.com

The Church Fathers are a good study and if you couple that with Christian history you are gone to know some stuff.... Looking at them and
their writings and the time period, you can kind of see the development of Christianity during the first three hundred years. All good stuff.

 

[GodsGrace]

Some believe that repentance is a change of actions...some believe it is a change of mind. It has a meaning of "turn around or turn away?
I will not split hairs about it.

It's turn around.
I've taught this many times.

One is on the road to satan when he is born.
He changes his mind...
he turns around and goes toward God.
This will also cause a change of action.
Both right!

Today we use repentance to mean "sorry or sorrowful" but it's not really the correct meaning.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Church Fathers are a good study and if you couple that with Christian history you are gone to know some stuff.... Looking at them and
their writings and the time period, you can kind of see the development of Christianity during the first three hundred years. All good stuff.

Oh my.
Someone that respects the ECFs!!
And yes,,,I also say they go to 325 AD...
after that, everything changed. (for the worse).

 

[justbyfaith]

So, good. According to you I can be a homosexual, “accept Christ on my couch” and then remain a homosexual because all I have to do is believe.

If someone like that truly believes, they will not walk in homosexuality any longer.

Kind of.
It is God declaring that a man is forgiven of his sins and is now born again.
Is this all it means to be righteous with God?
Or is righteousness on-going?

See 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 2:17. We abide in Christ by believing in Him; and this results in holiness of character. And we can also abide for ever within Him.

If you reply YES...then we all know that you've misunderstood something about salvation.

If you reply NO...then perhaps the new life you live can be called a work?

It is not a work...for we abide by faith.

As I've said repeatedly, NO ONE is saved by works.
Does ANYTHING come AFTER salvation?
Is anything required of us?

Not required. It (doing good works) is something that is inevitable, however, in the life of anyone who is truly born again. We are new creatures in Christ, inclined to do good works.

You're tying this in with Romans 3:23 which is something PAUL said. Who do YOU trust more?

I trust that Jesus told us that His Spirit would teach His disciples and guide them into all truth. Thus 2 Peter is inspired scripture. And that 2 Peter 3:15-16 shows us that Paul's writings are holy inspired scripture. Therefore, by trusting in Jesus, I trust that Paul's writings are inspired by Jesus.

Again you go back to the O.T. How about listening to what JESUS said?

All scripture is inspired of the Lord. It is not only the red letters that we are to hold to be authoritative.

The above statement is nonsense.
A way to make salvation easier for yourself.
Easy believism is what pastors call it.
How are you required to keep the whole law?
Where's the temple?
Have you placed your hand on a lamb lately to transfer your sins to it,,,and did the High Priest slay it in your stead?

That it is not possible to keep the whole law does not make the requirement any less viable, for those who would seek to be justified by their works.

You need to learn the difference between WORKS OF THE LAW
and WORKS of FAITH or WORKS.

Fact is, Romans 4:5 is not speaking of the works of the law...it is speaking of works period.

What did Jesus teach us to do?
Just have faith?
Faith alone does not save....I'm still waiting for a verse where Jesus states that all one needs is faith and he will be saved.

Again, John 6:47....not to mention Jesus substantiated the epistles by saying that He would guide the disciples into all truth. And Peter substantiated Paul in 2 Peter 3:15-16.

And just so I understand...does the person in Luke 8:13 have temporary salvation?

That is the Lord's call....not mine. But I would say that ultimately the person is not saved. And that is what really counts.

It's in John 15:1-8 !!!

WHERE?

Jesus is saying the opposite!
He's saying that we MUST produce fruit or be CUT OFF the vine.

Jesus is definitely saying that our righteousness is from Him in that passage.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace
@Grailhunter

Hello there,

I feel it is such a shame that this should be a matter of disagreement. I believe that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us, yes, He died for the ungodly.

'For what saith the scripture?
Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.'
(Romans 4:3-7)

'What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death,
we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: ... '
(Romans 6:1-5)

'Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him.
For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:
but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead,
and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you:
for ye are not under the law, but under grace.'
(Romans 6:9)

*,We are not saved by good works but we are saved unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi C,

I don't believe @Grailhunter and I really disagree.
I think we use different language.

The one I really disagree with is the person that makes statements such as...
the N.T. was ONLY for the Jews...or it was ONLY for the gentiles...or we just have to have faith, or our works are as dirty rags..etc etc.

When we love God we want to do good for Him.
All you've said is right.

But then you ask the simple question:
is this required?
and the answer comes back...NO.

 

[GodsGrace]

If someone like that truly believes, they will not walk in homosexuality any longer.



See 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 2:17. We abide in Christ by believing in Him; and this results in holiness of character. And we can also abide for ever within Him.



It is not a work...for we abide by faith.



Not required. It (doing good works) is something that is inevitable, however, in the life of anyone who is truly born again. We are new creatures in Christ, inclined to do good works.



I trust that Jesus told us that His Spirit would teach His disciples and guide them into all truth. Thus 2 Peter is inspired scripture. And that 2 Peter 3:15-16 shows us that Paul's writings are holy inspired scripture. Therefore, by trusting in Jesus, I trust that Paul's writings are inspired by Jesus.



All scripture is inspired of the Lord. It is not only the red letters that we are to hold to be authoritative.





Fact is, Romans 4:5 is not speaking of the works of the law...it is speaking of works period.



Again, John 6:47....not to mention Jesus substantiated the epistles by saying that He would guide the disciples into all truth. And Peter substantiated Paul in 2 Peter 3:15-16.



That is the Lord's call....not mine. But I would say that ultimately the person is not saved. And that is what really counts.



Jesus is definitely saying that our righteousness is from Him in that passage.



Consider Acts 10:43.

Also, in Acts 13:48, as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. And there is no mention of them ever being baptized.

It should be clear that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).



Not trying to be deceitful. Just not overextending myself by going overboard in my use of scripture, trying to keep to what is relevant.



The text in question being Romans 5:2...they gained access to a relationship to Christ through their faith in Him and what He did for them on the Cross of Calvary.



I've actually seen real miracles happen today...so I would differ from you on that.



Don't go that far in relating my belief...though it is close to that. I believe that those who are baptized in Jesus' Name have that as a point of contact for their faith so that they can have absolute assurance of salvation through the action...but I also see that a person can receive the Holy Ghost simply by asking...Luke 11:9-13.



The blood of Jesus does not only justify...it sanctifies also. Hebrews 10:29, Hebrews 13:12. Is it possible that, when applied, it can do one thing without also doing the other?



Jesus said at one point that He had many things to say to the disciples but that they could not bear all of it at that time. So He would send the Holy Spirit to teach them and to guide them into all truth.



We are filthy rags before the Lord if we are trusting in our works to save us (Isaiah 64:6).



I would say that my answer to that depends on where you are in your walk.

If you are asking the question, how far can I go before I am outside of the grace of God, then I would say that you are not eternally secure. On the other hand, if the question you are asking is, How close can I get to Jesus Christ? Then i would say that there is no danger of you falling away, absolutely zilch, none, as long as you have this attitude.



We are not required; rather, it is our privilege to obey the Lord. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power." (Psalms 110:3)



If anyone really believes in Jesus, they will obey Him. Therefore, if they don't obey Him, they are walking in unbelief. And that unbelief is what condemns them (not their disobedience). Their disobedience is only the outward sign of an inward reality that is not good. Therefore, we are saved by grace, but will be judged by our works. Because our works reflect accurately what is truly going on on the inside of us. Again I say, Jesus told us to clean the inside of the cup and platter that the outside may also be clean.



He at the very least implied it in John 15:1-8. "Without me you can do nothing."





I am certainly not against doing good works. You should do all the good works that you can, understanding that you are not saved by them; and that neither are you maintaining your salvation through them. Do them out of thankfulness to Christ over the fact that He has saved you, and that this is an eternal reality that cannot be trifled with.



That we are not required to do anything does not mean that we will not do anything. The motivation in the heart of true Christians, towards
doing good works, is based on the fact that we are already saved and have fallen in love with the Lord. Because we love Him, we obey Him. It stems out of a relationship of love, not obligation.



Matthew 5:20 is to be interpreted by Galatians 2:21 and Philippians 3:9.

This is a lot to go thru JBF...and I wonder why we're doing this at this point.

I've gone through the dirty rags with you and they're still dirty.

I'm going to dinner.
I part friends with you.

 

[Grailhunter]

Oh my.
Someone that respects the ECFs!!
And yes,,,I also say they go to 325 AD...
after that, everything changed. (for the worse).

In some ways for the good and some ways for the bad....doctrine wise for the bad. The problem is that the Church Fathers were taking a beating
and sometimes by each other. They needed to be pulled together. Then also the wolves were circling the pacifistic Christians. The persecutions needed to stop and Christianity needed a little muscle. The story line is not perfect and Constantine was no angel...But still I think God intended for it to happen.

 

[justbyfaith]

Vs 7&8 tell us that the man whom God imputes righteousness without works is the man whose sins are forgiven. How does that happen today under the new covenant? Through baptism.

Consider Acts 10:43.

Also, in Acts 13:48, as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. And there is no mention of them ever being baptized.

It should be clear that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

You and many others are being purposefully deceitful..how can I come to any other conclusion.

Not trying to be deceitful. Just not overextending myself by going overboard in my use of scripture, trying to keep to what is relevant.

I don’t see the word alone. I also don’t see in your text where they “received Christ”.

The text in question being Romans 5:2...they gained access to a relationship to Christ through their faith in Him and what He did for them on the Cross of Calvary.

are people working miracles today? No.

I've actually seen real miracles happen today...so I would differ from you on that.

Would you mind if I tell others in my post that justbyfaith teaches that we are saved ONLY after we are baptized in water? Because that’s how I read this.

Don't go that far in relating my belief...though it is close to that. I believe that those who are baptized in Jesus' Name have that as a point of contact for their faith so that they can have absolute assurance of salvation through the action...but I also see that a person can receive the Holy Ghost simply by asking...Luke 11:9-13.

However, today, under grace, we are saved by God's grace, alone, through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. The way into Heaven is through Jesus' blood on the cross. A child of God has been made a child of God not because of their works but because of Jesus' work on the cross.

The blood of Jesus does not only justify...it sanctifies also. Hebrews 10:29, Hebrews 13:12. Is it possible that, when applied, it can do one thing without also doing the other?

You mean Jesus couldn't just say what He meant?
He had to wait to die and then give His message to Paul?

Jesus said at one point that He had many things to say to the disciples but that they could not bear all of it at that time. So He would send the Holy Spirit to teach them and to guide them into all truth.

Lady GodsGrace, we are going to sin, but we are not dirty rags before God.

We are filthy rags before the Lord if we are trusting in our works to save us (Isaiah 64:6).

I guess what I'm really asking is:
Do you believe in eternal security?
Or is there a condition?

I would say that my answer to that depends on where you are in your walk.

If you are asking the question, "How far can I go in the way of walking towards sin, before I am outside of the grace of God?" then I would say that you are not eternally secure. On the other hand, if the question you are asking is, "How close can I get to Jesus Christ?" Then I would say that there is no danger of you falling away, absolutely zilch, none, as long as you have this attitude.

The answer is YES.
We are required to obey God AFTER we're saved.

We are not required; rather, it is our privilege to obey the Lord. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power." (Psalms 110:3)

I've posted so much scripture that is rejected.
How do you understand this:
John 3:36

If anyone really believes in Jesus, they will obey Him. Therefore, if they don't obey Him, they are walking in unbelief. And that unbelief is what condemns them (not their disobedience). Their disobedience is only the outward sign of an inward reality that is not good. Therefore, we are saved by grace, but will be judged by our works. Because our works reflect accurately what is truly going on on the inside of us. Again I say, Jesus told us to clean the inside of the cup and platter that the outside may also be clean.

JESUS never said that we would be righteous through HIM.

He at the very least implied it in John 15:1-8. "Without me you can do nothing."

JESUS never said that we would be righteous through HIM. This is something that came out later after Paul went off into the desert for 3 years.

Not only did Jesus say it in John 15:1-8; but He also substantiated the writings of the apostles in John 14:26 and John 16:13. If that did not substantiate Paul's writings, it substantiated Peter's; and Peter substantiated Paul's writings in his own (2 Peter 3:15-16).

These days everyone seems to be against doing good works because of this concept of being righteous through Jesus.

I am certainly not against doing good works. You should do all the good works that you can, understanding that you are not saved by them; and that neither are you maintaining your salvation through them. Do them out of thankfulness to Christ over the fact that He has saved you, and that this is an eternal reality that cannot be trifled with.

However to carry this to the extreme that says we are not required to do anything because we already have our righteousness in Christ is wrong.

That we are not required to do anything does not mean that we will not do anything. The motivation in the heart of true Christians, towards
doing good works, is based on the fact that we are already saved and have fallen in love with the Lord. Because we love Him, we obey Him. It stems out of a relationship of love, not obligation.

Mathew 5:20
He said our righteousness must SURPASS that of the scribes...
NOT that HE would be our righteousness.

Matthew 5:20 is to be interpreted by Galatians 2:21 and Philippians 3:9.

 

[justbyfaith]

The one I really disagree with is the person that makes statements such as...
the N.T. was ONLY for the Jews...or it was ONLY for the gentiles...or we just have to have faith, or our works are as dirty rags..etc etc.

And the fact is, that you are disagreeing with scripture...but the fact that you take issue with it means that you have heard the truth on the matter...so whatever conviction abides....I pray that it will bring you into a saving knowledge of the pure and unadulterated grace of God.

I'm going to dinner.
I part friends with you.

That is fine with me. For it is written:

Luk 6:22, Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23, Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Of course, I'm not giving up on you. As long as you don't put me on Ignore, I will attempt to do what I can to win your soul over to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Grailhunter]

Consider Acts 10:43.

Also, in Acts 13:48, as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. And there is no mention of them ever being baptized.

It should be clear that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).



Not trying to be deceitful. Just not overextending myself by going overboard in my use of scripture, trying to keep to what is relevant.



The text in question being Romans 5:2...they gained access to a relationship to Christ through their faith in Him and what He did for them on the Cross of Calvary.



I've actually seen real miracles happen today...so I would differ from you on that.



Don't go that far in relating my belief...though it is close to that. I believe that those who are baptized in Jesus' Name have that as a point of contact for their faith so that they can have absolute assurance of salvation through the action...but I also see that a person can receive the Holy Ghost simply by asking...Luke 11:9-13.



The blood of Jesus does not only justify...it sanctifies also. Hebrews 10:29, Hebrews 13:12. Is it possible that, when applied, it can do one thing without also doing the other?



Jesus said at one point that He had many things to say to the disciples but that they could not bear all of it at that time. So He would send the Holy Spirit to teach them and to guide them into all truth.



We are filthy rags before the Lord if we are trusting in our works to save us (Isaiah 64:6).



I would say that my answer to that depends on where you are in your walk.

If you are asking the question, "How far can I go in the way of walking towards sin, before I am outside of the grace of God?" then I would say that you are not eternally secure. On the other hand, if the question you are asking is, "How close can I get to Jesus Christ?" Then I would say that there is no danger of you falling away, absolutely zilch, none, as long as you have this attitude.



We are not required; rather, it is our privilege to obey the Lord. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power." (Psalms 110:3)



If anyone really believes in Jesus, they will obey Him. Therefore, if they don't obey Him, they are walking in unbelief. And that unbelief is what condemns them (not their disobedience). Their disobedience is only the outward sign of an inward reality that is not good. Therefore, we are saved by grace, but will be judged by our works. Because our works reflect accurately what is truly going on on the inside of us. Again I say, Jesus told us to clean the inside of the cup and platter that the outside may also be clean.



He at the very least implied it in John 15:1-8. "Without me you can do nothing."



Not only did Jesus say it in John 15:1-8; but He also substantiated the writings of the apostles in John 14:26 and John 16:13. If that did not substantiate Paul's writings, it substantiated Peter's; and Peter substantiated Paul's writings in his own (2 Peter 3:15-16).



I am certainly not against doing good works. You should do all the good works that you can, understanding that you are not saved by them; and that neither are you maintaining your salvation through them. Do them out of thankfulness to Christ over the fact that He has saved you, and that this is an eternal reality that cannot be trifled with.



That we are not required to do anything does not mean that we will not do anything. The motivation in the heart of true Christians, towards
doing good works, is based on the fact that we are already saved and have fallen in love with the Lord. Because we love Him, we obey Him. It stems out of a relationship of love, not obligation.



Matthew 5:20 is to be interpreted by Galatians 2:21 and Philippians 3:9.

Your beliefs are duly noted...God bless