Please explain this.

[Lady Crosstalk]

NO!
I've taught the covenants Lady C.

So what?! You've probably taught them incorrectly.

We were discussing whether or not it's NECESSARY TO OBEY GOD.

It is not necessary for salvation. "Obedience" from a proud heart will be burned up at the Bema Seat--but the person will be saved "though as through fire" if he/she is a genuine believer.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

What are you talking about. What you say isn't biblical.

All people will be judged by their works. THAT is the only biblical judgment. All others are inventions of people looking to save themselves for NOT doing the will of God.

Those who are covered by the Blood of the Lamb have already been judged righteous. The works of the unbelievers will be the basis of their Final Judgment. Unless you plan to be in that group, you needn't trouble yourself or others with your errant teaching. You are presuming to judge those who do not agree with your theology--you cannot know that they are "people looking to save themselves for not doing the will of God." How unloving and arrogant of you.

 

[Episkopos]

Those who are covered by the Blood of the Lamb have already been judged righteous.

You are making this about people again. You have it backwards.

Jesus is not just righteous...He has been perfected FOR us to walk in Him. So then by entering into Christ we take on HIS righteousness.

We do not take on OUR own righteousness by entering into Christ.

Our own righteousness and faithfulness to God will only be judged on judgment day where everyone will receive according to their deeds.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

You are making this about people again. You have it backwards.

Jesus is not just righteous...He has been perfected FOR us to walk in Him. So then by entering into Christ we take on HIS righteousness.

We do not take on OUR own righteousness by entering into Christ.

Our own righteousness and faithfulness to God will only be judged on judgment day where everyone will receive according to their deeds.

It is you who are still preaching a "gospel of non-grace". That makes it not very "good news" at all. Those who are under the Blood of Jesus are properly extremely grateful that we won't receive judgment according to our deeds. Let me ask you--how do you know that you have enough good works to be safe?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Having faith puts you equal with satan and the devils, that is it.

I think you don't want to be saying this. Satan and his demons have knowledge--NOT faith. True faith comes from a humble heart.

 

[marks]

So if my faith is sufficient that I am accounted righteous, what promises am I to believe in, and how am I to demonstrate that faith by action?

Hi brakelite,

Here's how I answer . . .

Romans 6
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We can die with Jesus to sin and the flesh, being raised to new life. And we demonstrate this reality by living new lives.

Much love!

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I never misquote God.

"Never"? I think it has already been established by Scott A that you have misquoted both the Scriptures and him.

 

[marks]

Scott...it's 22 pages and I'll continue because incorrect theology has to be corrected. I happen to be here...so I'll do it.

I believe I have very good communication skills.

Required is the PERFECT word for new believers that are hearing a lot of strange theology these days.

So you mean you only do what YOU want to do? That's what we call easy believism these days.

Jesus didn't do what was easy for Him. He asked that the cup be taken away, but that GOD'S will be done...not His.

THIS is what new Christians should be learning.
Not some watered down gospel that would be unfamiliar to those living at the time of Jesus.

People went to the lions for their beliefs, and we're afraid of the word
REQUIRED and
WORKS and
OBEDIENCE

Will Jesus find any faith when He returns?
Those with faith HEAR the word of God.
Jesus told the Apostles to go to all nations and to
TEACH THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THAT JESUS COMMANDED THEM.

What does that mean?

And as to disciples...Jesus said that we are His disciples IF we remain faithful to His teachings...WHAT TEACHINGS?

Jesus said He spoke not on His own, but the FATHER HIMSELF who sent Him gave Him commandment...what to say and what to speak. And that the things Jesus spoke he spoke as the Father told Him.

I suggest we begin to take the word of God seriously and stop playing word games.

Hi God's Grace,

Sorry for my pointed questions, and thank you for your answers and patience with me. As you know there is so much doctrine floating about that teaches we are only saved by doing the works. I wasn't sure where you stood on all that but I think I know, and it seems much the same as me.

Tell me if you agree:

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that's it.
The saved life will show a pattern of good works according to what the Bible describes.
The saved life will also show a decreasing pattern of sin.
Not seeing these things, increasing good works, decreasing sin, is a warning that our salvation may not be true.
If there ARE NO good works, and really, this mean increasing love for others, we really need to examine ourselves, to see if we be in the faith.

Are we on the same page with this?

If we are agreed, I'd then ask, what of when Jesus said, "Then you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free"?

Much love!
Mark

 

[farouk]

Good deeds are never "required" for salvation nor, surprisingly, sanctification. We WANT to do them because hearts that belong to Him are filled by the Holy Spirit with love and compassion (if not, then we need to pray for a greater infilling). If you look at the rationale for the handing out of Crowns at the Bema Seat of Christ--not one of them is given for "good deeds". They are all laurels given for the believer's submission to the refining fire of the Holy Spirit. Under the Old Covenant, Abraham did not have any conditions required of him (God put him to sleep during the covenant-making). Abraham believed God and had faith that God would do all that He said. God counted it as righteousness. Under the New Covenant, we have no requirements either--other than believing God and having faith that our Savior will do all that He said He will.

As the Christian faith moved into Gentile pagan areas, one of the biggest impediments to faith was the customary pagan thinking that we must do things to impress God. But Isaiah's insistence that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" was helpful in convincing them that WE CAN DO NOTHING to "help" Him. As soon as we start down the "good deeds" path, we are in danger of taking some kind of credit for ourselves. When I survey churches today, I see that pridefulness as the most destructive force in them. When God wants us to do something, He will put someone who is needy or a task that needs doing, in our path.

Grace is just grace, and it is an ongoing guiding presence in our lives, as the Spirit of Grace and Supplication (see Zechariah 10) moves and shapes our hearts.

Works follow faith (Ephesians 2.10) but salvation itself is indeed by grace, through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2.8,9).

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It is you who are still preaching a "gospel of non-grace". That makes it not very "good news" at all. Those who are under the Blood of Jesus are properly extremely grateful that we won't receive judgment according to our deeds. Let me ask you--how do you know that you have enough good works to be safe?

I disagree that He preaches a gospel of nongrace. It is by grace, through trust, that the apostles entered into that life walked in Christ and did many miracles. That's a whole lotta' grace!

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you don't know any--I do. Contrary to what you have said, Messianic Jews have a variety of expressions of faith. Some (just as in the days after the Resurrection) believe that Jews must follow all of the Jewish festivals and rituals--others do not. Many do not choose to call themselves "Christians" because of the negative connotations that provokes among their brethren which they fervently hope to reach with the gospel.

Contrary to what you have so confidently stated, there have always been Jewish believers in Messiah Yeshua. They were FORCED to let go of the old sacrificial system when the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

It seems that you often don't know what you think you do.



Not "everyone else does". Amadeus often posts many well-known passages without any of those things. Is it necessary for YOU to be so rude? I think it IS necessary to ask other Christians to read passages in context because it will often point out error.




That is your interpretation--I drew another. Abraham was a very wealthy man--having wealth is not a sin. Every day, the Rich Man ignored the plight of Lazarus at the Rich Man's gate. The Rich Man's heart was hard. You said, "Jesus taught that we must gather the treasure that lasts forever, as Lazarus did." You are apparently reading that into the text--we know nothing about Lazarus' spirituality.


In the cited passage on which I commented, he was speaking about unbelievers.

If I have to tell you, you would probably deny that it was rude anyway, and I choose not to spend any more of my time on that point.

Well, thank you for your pronouncement but perhaps it is you who needs to examine her heart, if you expect to gain anything from this forum.

You see Lady C,
You were insulted for some strange reason in my last post to you....
whereas YOU have been insulting me telling me that I'm wrong and that I need to study more and that I should learn this and learn that...

You're above post is a perfect example.
I have no desire to share God's word with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

So what?! You've probably taught them incorrectly.



It is not necessary for salvation. "Obedience" from a proud heart will be burned up at the Bema Seat--but the person will be saved "though as through fire" if he/she is a genuine believer.

It's right here for everyone to see.
It makes Jesus' sacrifice on the cross of no effect on those that believe as you do.
And again you improperly interpret 1 cor 3.

The Covenants are made by God...not by me.

 

[ScottA]

What are you talking about. What you say isn't biblical.

All people will be judged by their works. THAT is the only biblical judgment. All others are inventions of people looking to save themselves for NOT doing the will of God.

No, that's actually backwards.

Works are what was before the foundation of the world manifest as the result of judgment. All are condemned already. From the beginning.

But people who run with the ways of the world and its timeline only believe that what occurred in the twinkling of an eye, still has a final judgment because they think they haven't experience it yet. In actuality, the only thing that they have not seen yet, is whether or not they will change before the end of this worldly manifestation. But being last to know does not make anything true that they believe but do not know.

Works now for salvation, is just a confession of not knowing what was true from the beginning.

 

[Episkopos]

It is you who are still preaching a "gospel of non-grace". That makes it not very "good news" at all. Those who are under the Blood of Jesus are properly extremely grateful that we won't receive judgment according to our deeds. Let me ask you--how do you know that you have enough good works to be safe?

The good news is not good for the flesh. The flesh is meant to be crucified...out of the way...to leave room for Christ who is wanting to save us. It is good news for they who seek to be reconciled to God and live eternally with Him. But not to justify the flesh as so many modern people are looking for. God is offering us a place in His eternal kingdom...by giving us His power (grace) which is by faith...so that we do the works that glorify God. From there is a great reward...since we will have done the works of holiness as Jesus did. So we are to be overcomers in this world through the power of God (grace) us-ward who believe..

So we need only trust AND fear God who will judge all without prejudice or favouritism. We will all be judged by our works...which is according to the truth written in the bible.

Any other idea is from men.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I disagree that He preaches a gospel of nongrace. It is by grace, through trust, that the apostles entered into that life walked in Christ and did many miracles. That's a whole lotta' grace!

But, they did not have to earn further grace with good deeds. John 1:16-->"From His abundance we have all received one gracious blessing after another." Grace is on ongoing force in one's life--from the "Spirit of Grace and Supplication". This is also known as "grace upon grace". If it must be earned, it is not grace.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

You see Lady C,
You were insulted for some strange reason in my last post to you....
whereas YOU have been insulting me telling me that I'm wrong and that I need to study more and that I should learn this and learn that...

You're above post is a perfect example.
I have no desire to share God's word with you.

Not insulted at all--I'd have to care what you say about me, in order to be insulted. I was just stating facts. If you feel insulted and want to run away, in order to avoid being proved wrong, that is a problem with your heart.

 

[GodsGrace]

"Never"? I think it has already been established by Scott A that you have misquoted both the Scriptures and him.

Scott A is the big expert here.
He knows everything.
Even what God speaks.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

It's right here for everyone to see.
It makes Jesus' sacrifice on the cross of no effect on those that believe as you do.
And again you improperly interpret 1 cor 3.

The Covenants are made by God...not by me.

At first, I thought you were just ignorant--now, I think you are incapable of objective judgment and rational thought. Those who understand that Jesus keeps us and will never let us fall are far more appreciative of what He effected on the Cross than those who teach that we must maintain grace with good deeds. The greatest work of grace is to become an "overcomer". Being an overcomer is a reflection of an internal state of having overcome the "world, the flesh and the devil (the sin of pride)" by submitting all to the gracious work of the Holy Spirit. This is NOT of ourselves lest anyone should boast.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Scott A is the big expert here.
He knows everything.
Even what God speaks.

It's okay, GG, we all misquote from time to time. Thinking that we NEVER do leads to pride.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi God's Grace,

Sorry for my pointed questions, and thank you for your answers and patience with me. As you know there is so much doctrine floating about that teaches we are only saved by doing the works. I wasn't sure where you stood on all that but I think I know, and it seems much the same as me.

Tell me if you agree:

Salvation is by grace through faith, and that's it.
The saved life will show a pattern of good works according to what the Bible describes.
The saved life will also show a decreasing pattern of sin.
Not seeing these things, increasing good works, decreasing sin, is a warning that our salvation may not be true.
If there ARE NO good works, and really, this mean increasing love for others, we really need to examine ourselves, to see if we be in the faith.

Are we on the same page with this?

If we are agreed, I'd then ask, what of when Jesus said, "Then you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free"?

Much love!
Mark

You don't have to apologize for anything.
I'm here to talk. If I didn't want to be here I wouldn't be.

I'll confirm all you've said by repeating:
1. Yes. We are saved by God's grace through the instrument of faith.
2. The saved person will show a pattern of good works as the bible states/shows.
3. The saved life will show a decreasing amount of sin.
4. Correct. No increasing good works and less sinning is a danger signal that something is wrong with our new life in Christ.
5. Yes...we'd need to examine ourselves, as Paul stated. 2 Cor 13:5

We are on the same page.
I do want to add that it's rather disheartening to know that Jesus went to the cross for us to live this improved life...not so we could say, with pride, that works are not necessary/required and that obedience is not necessary/required.

We have one poster on this thread that plainly said that only the UNSAVED are to obey God. Now, if someone could explain that theory to me because it makes no sense. Unsaved persons DO NOT need to obey God,,,WE do.

If the words REQUIRED, NECESSARY are offensive to some,,well, that's just too bad, it's what God said from Genesis 2:17 when He told Adam not to eat of the tree... to Revelation 22:12

God renders to man what man has done.
I don't make the rules...God does.
It's useless for those that don't agree to argue with me,,,they need to
argue with God.

I have still to hear a verse that says ONLY FAITH AND NOTHING ELSE needs to be done. All I read is the opposite and I've posted A LOT of scripture for support.

I do appreciate your willingness to understand what I post.