Please explain this.

[marks]

Ah, well, see that's where we differ. You think that continuing in trust and growing in trust (the obedience of faith) is a soul damning work. I think it is a necessity.

I guess this clues me in to why you support Episkopos and his way of speaking to others. You feel free to swing the same hammer.

Much love, and sadness.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, thank you for clarifying your view.

Can you show Scripture where grace is given as a reward for works? I'm curious where you find that.

Much love!

You know Marks, not everything can be learned from reading the bible.
Some things are gathered from scripture and then some light is opened and further revelation is made.

NOT new revelation...Jesus is the ultimate and last revelation from God.
But we CAN understand better what the N.T. proposes to us.
For instance this idea of grace.
If a student can finish homework in 15 minutes... he can handle MORE homework.
If a student finishes his homework in one hour, it's obvious that there's no use or reason to give him more.

Grace is the same. God give us the grace we need...a measure special for us.
I did post some verses in 529...
Hebrews 4:16
2 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 4:10

Also, @Episkopos posted
Hebrews 4:16

If you look for this concept in the N.T. you will find it...but it may not be so easy to see otherwise.

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith is a work? And for working the work of having faith, we are rewarded by Grace?

I like to include context, which can show a much different message then when you just show a smaller part.

Hebrews 4
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The time of our need is when we are in our infirmities. As these are temptations, this is when we feel like we might sin, or have sinned.

And In Spite Of the lack of "works", i.e. what we are dealing with is sin, in spite of that, we get to walk right up to the throne of grace . . . why? To receive grace to help . . . why?

Because of our good works?

But this is about overcoming sin. So not as some reward for Good Works.

Because we are His children.

This passage is not teaching us that God rewards our good works with Grace. Grace is not grace if it is a reward, because then it would be earned. But grace, by definition, cannot be earned.

Faith is a work? And for working the work of having faith, we are rewarded by Grace?

Much love!

We are not REWARDED by grace.
We are just given what we need.
Look into this...it's correct.

But we all have ENOUGH GRACE to walk with God.

 

[marks]

Lol. I'm sorry, but you are the one who keeps insisting we have a full measure of everything on the day we are born.

Where do I say that?

Do you actually know what I think about these things? I mean, I've not been silent about it.

If you know, do you not care? If you don't know, well . . .

I don't know what to say.

I sure like discussion, but I'm here to discuss the Bible rather than your aspersions against me.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

We are not REWARDED by grace.
We are just given what we need.
Look into this...it's correct.

But we all have ENOUGH GRACE to walk with God.

...or at least to begin our walks. If we are faithful with what we have been given, we will be given more. That is the way of the kingdom of God.

Many have not really begun their walks...because they think it's wrong to go beyond ONE step. Such is the winds of doctrine...

Love is unconditional. But salvation is conditional. As is the New Covenant.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

By grace, through faith is Gods idea. Go tell Him that the through faith part is something you would like to dispute.
Sorry, that was in response to post #544.

You ask if faith is a work. I see it as an obedience.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

LOL
Maybe YOU could overcome your insulting posts?
View attachment 6699

They weren't meant to be insulting.

Grace is given as a reward for the works of faith and seeking.

NO! FAITH IS NOT A WORK! Grace is only EVER through faith. It is not ever a "reward" for anything. He rewards (blesses) those who seek Him, but frequently, those who are visited with salvation were NOT even seeking Him. The Apostle Paul was not, until God knocked him off his horse, and Paul makes clear in Romans 10:20 (a restatement of Isaiah 65:1) that the Gentiles were not seeking God ). He also says in Romans 11:32---> "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all." Does not "all" mean all?

 

[Episkopos]

They weren't meant to be insulting.


NO! FAITH IS NOT A WORK! Grace is only EVER through faith. It is not ever a "reward" for anything. He rewards (blesses) those who seek Him, but frequently, those who are visited with salvation were NOT even seeking Him. The Apostle Paul was not, until God knocked him off his horse, and Paul makes clear in Romans 10:20 (a restatement of Isaiah 65:1) that the Gentiles were not seeking God ). He also says in Romans 11:32---> "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all." Does not "all" mean all?

Please...we are to STRIVE (very strenuous work) to enter into His rest.

Heb' 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

So we have 2 opposite sounding polarities in the same sentence. But the truth is when both are put together.

Your understanding has no reality at this point. You are trying to hold up one part of the truth while neglecting another.

Question how you were taught...and quit turning the bible on it's head!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Where do I say that?

Do you actually know what I think about these things? I mean, I've not been silent about it.

If you know, do you not care? If you don't know, well . . .

I don't know what to say.

I sure like discussion, but I'm here to discuss the Bible rather than your aspersions against me.

Much love!

My gosh, you are so touchy!

 

[Episkopos]

Where do I say that?

Do you actually know what I think about these things? I mean, I've not been silent about it.

If you know, do you not care? If you don't know, well . . .

I don't know what to say.

I sure like discussion, but I'm here to discuss the Bible rather than your aspersions against me.

Much love!

Aspersions? You are constantly misquoting and misrepresenting the arguments that you don't like here.

I wish you knew how to dialogue. But you are indoctrinated by human means so you can't receive anything that doesn't already line up with your previous conditioning. The bible can't even cut through to your mind...you just skim over the verses as if they were opinions.

 

[GodsGrace]

...or at least to begin our walks. If we are faithful with what we have been given, we will be given more. That is the way of the kingdom of God.

Many have not really begun their walks...because they think it's wrong to go beyond ONE step. Such is the winds of doctrine...

Love is unconditional. But salvation is conditional. As is the New Covenant.

Right.
The New Covenant is an unconditional covenant.
Jesus will be the redeemer of all, whether we want it or not.

However, to be a part of the New Covenant we must be IN IT.
And Jesus and Paul and the other writers do not disagree on how to be in it.
It certainly is NOT by disobeying God,,,
feeling we have nothing to do but have faith,,,
and to show nothing of our faith.

I like what James said in:
James 2:15-16

Jesus stated the same,,,but I like James' wording.

 

[marks]

My gosh, you are so touchy!

More personal commentary.

Am I touchy? Thin skinned? Do you know me?

Or do I like to bring things into the light?

And if it's that I like to bring things into the light?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Aspersions? You are constantly misquoting and misrepresenting the arguments that you don't like here.

I wish you knew how to dialogue. But you are indoctrinated by human means so you can't receive anything that doesn't already line up with your previous conditioning. The bible can't even cut through to your mind...you just skim over the verses as if they were opinions.

More personal commentary.

So useful for discussion!

I also wish we could actually have a dialog, and just stick to the point, instead of Constantly ignoring the actual content of the discussion in favor of peronally insulting remarks like this.

I mean, seriously, this is the best you can do? I don't think it is.

Much love!

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I'm not running.
Here I stand.
And stand firm I will.
But I have no desire to speak to you...
Who is what you accuse ME of being.
Typical.

I made no accusations of which I am aware. If you will point them out to me, I will apologize.

 

[justbyfaith]

So if my faith is sufficient that I am accounted righteous, what promises am I to believe in, and how am I to demonstrate that faith by action?

Rom 4:20, He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21, And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22, And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23, Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24, But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25, Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

What I am to believe in is the God who raised Jesus from the dead; the focal point of faith by which I am imputed righteousness is the resurrection of Christ.

What scriptures is he saying that about? Seems to me he only had the OT and the book of James was not in it.

He was not only referring to the Old Testament. He was testifying to the profitability of the entire canon of scripture. Because the word of the Lord is timeless; and it should be clear that James is holy scripture.

As for now....our discussion is ended UNLESS you have something NEW to provide.

Just Hebrews 3:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 4:7.

You have it a little backwards, no one can do works for God or know God or know Jesus until they have faith.

I haven't said otherwise.

I have still to hear a verse that says ONLY FAITH AND NOTHING ELSE needs to be done.

You didn't accept it the first time; but let me remind you that John 6:47 has been referenced.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Beg your pardon????

Right.

Mark, don't you think its interesting that those who often have "grace" in their usernames want to resort to making rules for themselves and others and seemingly pay only lip service to the theology of grace?

 

[ScottA]

That depends on if you think a continuing in trust and a growing in trust is rewarded or not. To a man who is faithful, He shows Himself faithful. If we are faithful with what He gives us, He gives us more. But if a man isn't faithful with what He's been given, who in their right mind would put him in charge of more?

Do you mind me asking...?

I mean, personally, I was struck dead on the spot and given new life that very moment I came into His presence and in the knowledge of Him. It was finished. So, when I hear this kind of comment -- I find it bizarre.

What did you experience?

Perhaps you can help us understand why it is that there are so many who believe they can lift a finger toward their own salvation.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Lol.

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom 4:20, He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21, And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22, And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23, Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24, But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25, Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

What I am to believe in is the God who raised Jesus from the dead; the focal point of faith by which I am imputed righteousness is the resurrection of Christ.



He was not only referring to the Old Testament. He was testifying to the profitability of the entire canon of scripture. Because the word of the Lord is timeless; and it should be clear that James is holy scripture.



Just Hebrews 3:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 4:7.



I haven't said otherwise.



You didn't accept it the first time; but let me remind you that John 6:47 has been referenced.

And I said that if you want to use John 6:47 you're going to have to explain what BELIEVE means,,,AND at the time that it was used,,,IOW in the Greek.

Fact is there is no such verse where Jesus says all we have to do is have faith.
He spoke for over 3 years about things to do.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Do you mind me asking...?

I mean, personally, I was struck dead on the spot and given new life that very moment I came into His presence and in the knowledge of Him. It was finished. So, when I hear this kind of comment -- I find it bizarre.

What did you experience?

Perhaps you can help us understand why it is that there are so many who believe they can lift a finger toward their own salvation.

I don't see continuing (abiding)and growing in trust as lifting a finger toward my salvation. I see it as the obedience of trust. When you have a problem wherein people say that to learn the obedience of trust and grow in grace is men trying to earn a saving, you scarcely know how to answer them.

I guess I find it curious that a man would say he was struck dead on the spot at his new birth experience. My pride of life and presumptuousness and tyranny were not struck dead on the spot, so I cannot relate to it.