Biblical Foreknowledge

[John Caldwell]

I know James White...but I don't know what caged stage means.
What would you call him?

I'd call James White a Calvinist.

"Cage Stage" is a term that has been used to describe Calvinists who are cult-like in behavior. They are the ones who believe that God has led them into a deeper truth of Scripture than the average (the non-Calvinist) understands. They seek to make other people Calvinists.

This has been an issue in many churches. The Southern Baptist Convention has met to discuss how to handle these people, and Calvinism has even (unfortunately) been used as a test to keep people from certain positions (David Platt, who wrote "Radical", was confronted with his "Calvinism" and had to explain he was not one to get a position within the SBC). Paul Washer is a Calvinist preacher who is within the SBC, so most of the time this is not an issue. But there have been reports of young Calvinists (young, restless, and Reformed) who have destroyed churches by trying to convert congregations.

 

[GodsGrace]

John Caldwell,
.

Complete nonsense. The thing is, you do not know what you are talking about.
You make these sweeping general statements that you invent, and we are expected to just agree with. Anyone who does not agree , when you can, you delete their posts and make an excuse for doing so...
Not everyone agrees with your strange ideas. Some do! 30 people believed Marshall Appewhite and drank the poison hoping to get to that Comet.


Your opinion...you are welcome to it.

The cals.
The non-cals.

Is there one Body?
Or are there two Bodies?
The N.T. teaches me that there is ONE BODY OF CHRIST.

It seem as though you love your religion, or theology, more than Christ.
In some ways you are very much like Catholics.

Remember that it is JESUS who saves...
NOT your doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace,

I like colors...


Well then no real interaction can take place then. No one says you have to. However, if you do not want to take time, why should I go off topic and do what you want.?
When people do not want to"take the time"99 out of a hundred is, they cannot answer and are looking to divert to another idea ,so as to not address the topic and fail.



Looks like you do not understand what your own church believes then. They have a works gospel.

1. By not using color you are NOT going off topic.
2. Have you realized that you're not getting many responses?
It's due to your posting style.
3. I'm not Catholic...not that there's anything wrong with it. I love anyone who loves our Lord.

But I happen to know Catholic doctrine and will not sit idly by and read incorrect descriptions of it.

As I would not sit idly by on a Catholic Forum and read incorrect concepts about Protestants.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'd call James White a Calvinist.

"Cage Stage" is a term that has been used to describe Calvinists who are cult-like in behavior. They are the ones who believe that God has led them into a deeper truth of Scripture than the average (the non-Calvinist) understands. They seek to make other people Calvinists.

This has been an issue in many churches. The Southern Baptist Convention has met to discuss how to handle these people, and Calvinism has even (unfortunately) been used as a test to keep people from certain positions (David Platt, who wrote "Radical", was confronted with his "Calvinism" and had to explain he was not one to get a position within the SBC). Paul Washer is a Calvinist preacher who is within the SBC, so most of the time this is not an issue. But there have been reports of young Calvinists (young, restless, and Reformed) who have destroyed churches by trying to convert congregations.

OK.
I do know about this.
Calvinism seems to be attracting many of the younger generation.
I've thought about this and have a thought on it,
but tomorrow.

Good night.

 

[John Caldwell]

Please answer so I find an alert tomorrow morning...I really have to go to sleep.

In the meantime, here are some reasons why I believe a Christian can become lost.

Basically, it seems to me to be what Jesus said.
Luke 8:13
Mathew 7:23
The verse about not looking back once we decide to be a disciple.
John 15:5-6

There's more.
The parable of the Prodigal Son....
The son is AGAIN alive after having been dead.

I do believe other writers also taught this.

So I agree that we could know TODAY that we are saved...
and I also believe that we could know that TOMORROW we can be saved because, I, right now, know that I'll believe till the end and am 99% certain due to my life experiences. I can't believe that someone that BELIEVES themselves to be Christian is not...which is what you're saying. This is like judging who is saved and who isn't --- it's not up to us.

Tomorrow.

My answer (to all of the verses here) is that we may hold different views of what it means to be saved (insofar as this question goes).

I would view the one in whom the Word is received and does not take root, or sprouts and then is destroyed, or who believes gladly and the worries of life take over, or turns back, etc. as never having been saved.

In other words, when I look at “saved” I mean that final state. I may believe today, but if that belief does not result in the gifting of eternal life then I am not saved.

Those who are righteous in Christ will go away into eternal life on “that Day” (Matthew 25; John 5:29). What we have now is a hope which is in Christ. Our knowledge today is based in that Hope.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

John Caldwell,

I'd call James White a Calvinist.

DR.White is a friend of Mine. I know and have discussed this and heard him discuss it with people face to face.
I do not need your false narrative and twisting of the term or how it is used. Dr. White does not need you to be a spokesman for him. Calvinists do not need you being a spokesman for them, because you never seem to grasp what every Cal does grasp. That is a large part of the problem. You get frustrated when they offer you correction on key doctrines, like penal substitutionary atonement, or like here on biblical knowledge. You think you are being subtle in trying to undermine the truth, but the truth stands against all who come against it.

"Cage Stage" is a term that has been used to describe Calvinists who are cult-like in behavior.

No, that is not what it means. It describes a believer whose spiritual eyes are open to these truths. As they read more mature Calvinists, they want to tackle everyone and put a Copy of Pinks Sovereignty of God in their hands
They are excited about the truth but need some time to digest the new truth and to wait upon God to give wisdom on how to dispense it

They are the ones who believe that God has led them into a deeper truth of Scripture than the average (the non-Calvinist) understands.

Doctrinally that is a fact. A non-Cal might be living a more godly and holy life day to day, until the cal grasps the working of communion with God in their personal sanctification.

They seek to make other people Calvinists.

They seek to make disciples ...what are they going to do, quote from Charles Finney, although I am sure you like some of his teachings also.

This has been an issue in many churches. The Southern Baptist Convention has met to discuss how to handle these people,

Another twist and perverted explanation many baptists, and Southern Baptists are sinfully weak in the scriptures.
they limp along with their little life way booklets and many have been in the church for 20 years or more, and in a bible study cannot find many of the books of the bible yet.
The teacher says turn to Joshua, and they start from the back and work forward.
When a biblical taught Calvinist comes in, they feel intimidated and threatened, sometimes even the pastor of the church feels that way also.
It is not as much the doctrine itself, it is the ignorance and lack of obedience to study to show thyself approved that is the culprit.
Founders churches are an attempt for SBC to get back to it's Calvinistic and scriptural roots.
There is much more to be said about this, but many do not like to hear this, it is considered rude or arrogant to state such things. God called pastors have seen it and sound the alarm.

It is not about how to"handle these people". if it were up to you you would censor everyone of them.
let the dialog be open and free and let truth win out...not a delete button.

and Calvinism has even (unfortunately) been used as a test to keep people from certain positions (David Platt, who wrote "Radical", was confronted with his "Calvinism" and had to explain he was not one to get a position within the SBC). Paul Washer is a Calvinist preacher who is within the SBC, so most of the time this is not an issue. But there have been reports of young Calvinists (young, restless, and Reformed) who have destroyed churches by trying to convert congregations.

These reports are exaggerated. Why blame the young Calvinist, instead of the weak pastor and Adults in those churches who should have educated his people about biblical teachings, instead of doing a sermonette 20 minutes or less, filled with jokes and anecdotes rather than soul edifying truth.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

1. By not using color you are NOT going off topic.
2. Have you realized that you're not getting many responses?
It's due to your posting style.
3. I'm not Catholic...not that there's anything wrong with it. I love anyone who loves our Lord.

But I happen to know Catholic doctrine and will not sit idly by and read incorrect descriptions of it.

As I would not sit idly by on a Catholic Forum and read incorrect concepts about Protestants.

I am not getting many responses for other reasons.
I am an ex catholic and know the core teaching. I had my St.Josephs missal and my rosary beads and scapular

 

[John Caldwell]

This is what I was talking about, @GodsGrace ,


"To be perfectly honest with you over the past number of years I've become pretty sick and tired of the Calvinist club...I don't even want to be part of this 'club'....I find it grossly inconsistent that those who claim to embrace this theology could at the same time be arrogant, ungracious, unloving, unkind,and constantly drawing their swords and lopping people's Arminian ears off just for the bloodsport of it. Those of you on Facebook and Twitter and chat rooms and things like that to call yourself Calvinist, if you can't start acting with grace get back in your cage please for the good of the rest of us and for the good of everybody"

 

[Grailhunter]

My answer (to all of the verses here) is that we may hold different views of what it means to be saved (insofar as this question goes).

I would view the one in whom the Word is received and does not take root, or sprouts and then is destroyed, or who believes gladly and the worries of life take over, or turns back, etc. as never having been saved.

In other words, when I look at “saved” I mean that final state. I may believe today, but if that belief does not result in the gifting of eternal life then I am not saved.

Those who are righteous in Christ will go away into eternal life on “that Day” (Matthew 25; John 5:29). What we have now is a hope which is in Christ. Our knowledge today is based in that Hope.

Well John Caldwell,
Intelligent you are, but you still cannot see the forest for the trees.
Have you noticed when you talk to Calvinists that no amount of scriptures or reason matters?
The reason….picking and choosing scriptures to form a religious belief will usually end up bad. And reasoning is not their strong suite.

After the knowledge of the scriptures, one must stand back and look at the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of Christianity to interpret the Word of God and the Holy Spirit better be with you.

Instead of telling the scriptures what you believe, you need to let the scriptures and Spirit of Christ tell you the truth.

God is not a respecter of men….the elect thing is not an overall Christian concept.

We are all on equal terms with Christ before we are saved and after. He wants good for all…and by the way that means women too, even though the Bibles keeps saying men.

It is time for you to step away from the memorization of scriptures and look at the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the NT. What was Christ trying to accomplish?

Christ’s cousin knew and said “Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. He was not lying. He was 100% accurate. John 3:16, God loved this world and Christ loved this world so much that they did what they did to give men and women a chance at salvation. But that is a chance, a choice, any amount of predestination nullifies everything they did and our choice to believe. Get out of that religion!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

GodsGrace

The cals.
The non-cals.

Labels save time

Is there one Body?

No...there are many local churches worldwide.
The ONE BODY SPEAKS OF THOSE WHO ASSEMBLE ON THE LAST DAY.

The N.T. teaches me that there is ONE BODY OF CHRIST.[/QUOTE]

iT TEACHES EVERYONE ELSE THERE ARE MANY MANY LOCAL BODIES.

It seem as though you love your religion, or theology, more than Christ.

NOT ALL ALL. iN ALL THINGS JESUS HAS THE PREMINECNCE. DO NOT READ THE FALSE ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN

Remember that it is JESUS who saves...
NOT your doctrine.

Jesus IS THE LORD OF THE dOCTRINE. IT BELONGS TO HIM

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

This is what I was talking about, @GodsGrace ,


"To be perfectly honest with you over the past number of years I've become pretty sick and tired of the Calvinist club....I was just looking at a comment from a quote-unquote 'Calvinist', a 'tR' (truly Reformed) guy last night...I don't even want to be part of this 'club'....I find it grossly inconsistent that those who claim to embrace this theology could at the same time be arrogant, ungracious, unloving, unkind,and constantly drawing their swords and lopping people's Arminian ears off just for the bloodsport of it. Those of you on Facebook and Twitter and chat rooms and things like that to call yourself Calvinist, if you can't start acting with grace get back in your cage please for the good of the rest of us and for the good of everybody"

Yes..I heard that broadcast when he made it..it was good.I also know what he was talking about...the group

 

[John Caldwell]

Well John Caldwell,
Intelligent you are, but you still cannot see the forest for the trees.
Have you noticed when you talk to Calvinists that no amount of scriptures or reason matters?
The reason….picking and choosing scriptures to form a religious belief will usually end up bad. And reasoning is not their strong suite.

After the knowledge of the scriptures, one must stand back and look at the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of Christianity to interpret the Word of God and the Holy Spirit better be with you.

Instead of telling the scriptures what you believe, you need to let the scriptures and Spirit of Christ tell you the truth.

God is not a respecter of men….the elect thing is not an overall Christian concept.

We are all on equal terms with Christ before we are saved and after. He wants good for all…and by the way that means women too, even though the Bibles keeps saying men.

It is time for you to step away from the memorization of scriptures and look at the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the NT. What was Christ trying to accomplish?

Christ’s cousin knew and said “Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. He was not lying. He was 100% accurate. John 3:16, God loved this world and Christ loved this world so much that they did what they did to give men and women a chance at salvation. But that is a chance, a choice, any amount of predestination nullifies everything they did and our choice to believe. Get out of that religion!

Yes, trees can sometimes block my view.

The issue is that I believe God is omniscient (to include knowing all things past, future, and present and the outcome of every contingency). So logic dictates all is predistined (at a minimum because of divine omniscience). This is made certain in God's act of creation.

I agree we are on equal footing. We all have the same opportunity for salvation - Christ us the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Calvinism is not my religion.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Yes, trees can sometimes block my view.

The issue is that I believe God is omniscient (to include knowing all things past, future, and present and the outcome of every contingency). So logic dictates all is predistined (at a minimum because of divine omniscience). This is made certain in God's act of creation.

Grail hunter does not seem to know you are a "professing Calvinist"...hhhmmm

So logic dictates all is predistined

Logic? Not Scripture...interesting

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, trees can sometimes block my view.

The issue is that I believe God is omniscient (to include knowing all things past, future, and present and the outcome of every contingency). So logic dictates all is predistined (at a minimum because of divine omniscience). This is made certain in God's act of creation.

That one belief is what is going to hold you back from knowing the truth.
Get off your high horse...we all believe God is omniscient! God can do anything he want. He could color the whole world and what is in it, purple. But why would he want to? God has the power of predestination....mostly events that influence. At no time does he enter our minds and control our thoughts or choices. You are back to the monster god of science fiction.
Get out of that religion!

 

[Enoch111]

Read Luke 1:31 and then tell me if that sounds like a multiple choice to you.

When Mary received that message, God already knew in advance (foreknowledge) that she would be ready, willing, and able. But there was no compulsion whatsoever. She could have also refused to be involved. But it was her desire to please God. There is always a choice.

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (Joshua 24:15)

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, trees can sometimes block my view.

The issue is that I believe God is omniscient (to include knowing all things past, future, and present and the outcome of every contingency). So logic dictates all is predistined (at a minimum because of divine omniscience). This is made certain in God's act of creation.

I agree we are on equal footing. We all have the same opportunity for salvation - Christ us the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Calvinism is not my religion.

Not a Calvinist, but something in between. I get it. Still anything to do with predestination as norm or the elect speaks against the Spirit of Christ and what He did for us.

 

[John Caldwell]

That one belief is what is going to hold you back from knowing the truth.
Get off your high horse...we all believe God is omniscient! God can do anything he want. He could color the whole world and what is in it, purple. But why would he want to? God has the power of predestination....mostly events that influence. At no time does he enter our minds and control our thoughts or choices. You are back to the monster god of science fiction.
Get out of that religion!

All things will happen as God knows they will happen. Man will not change this. God knew what would unfold when He created.

We will have to "agree to disagree" as I will not change on this point. Everything is predestined to occur as God knows it will.

 

[Grailhunter]

All things will happen as God knows they will happen. Man will not change this. God knew what would unfold when He created.

We will have to "agree to disagree" as I will not change on this point. Everything is predestined to occur as God knows it will.

Again, it is the point that will hold you back from the truth.
There is no chance that predestinationists, confuse clairvoyance with mind control. It is one thing to have a program in your hand as you watch a puppet show, but an entirely different thing, to be the puppet master.

 

[John Caldwell]

Not a Calvinist, but something in between. I get it. Still anything to do with predestination as norm or the elect speaks against the Spirit of Christ and what He did for us.

No, insofar as TULIP I'm a Calvinist. But only because it is described that way.

I disagree, of course. I believe God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved. As I said, I believe in the omniscience of God. If God knows a man will not believe then that man will not believe. It does not mean the man couldn't, but he will not.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

That one belief is what is going to hold you back from knowing the truth.
Get off your high horse...we all believe God is omniscient! God can do anything he want. He could color the whole world and what is in it, purple. But why would he want to? God has the power of predestination....mostly events that influence. At no time does he enter our minds and control our thoughts or choices. You are back to the monster god of science fiction.
Get out of that religion!

Really?
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.

4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?

5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.

6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.


If you actually read the scriptures they teach all manner of things. Did you miss this section?