What is the purpose of vessels fitted for destruction?

[farouk]

A denial of the effects of the fall is the root of many heresies.
Romans 3:23.
.All sinned at one point in time.
All died in Adam

This is very true. It's very significant how Ephesians 2, acknowledging the sheer effects of the Fall in the first few verses, goes on to stress just how deeply and gloriously the believer depends on the grace of God in the next verses.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It seems to me you sometimes make things more complicated or difficult than they need to be.

Agree. As to not derail the thread there is no way to reply to the rest as it’s been debated to death anyways.

 

[atpollard]

Is there a point to this post? Do you think I'm asking how people would react finding out they're going to die? Any chance you might be able to answer the actual question presented?

It depends on what you think about your life and what death is.

Before God chose to intervene, I had accepted that everyone dies ... most sooner rather than later ... and going out in a literal blaze of glory was better than waiting for luck to run out and then choosing between suicide by cop or rotting in prison. You are born, you live, and when you die you don’t even leave behind a hole to show that you were here ....

God told me that by trusting in Him, I had a shot at actually LIVING. I never felt the urge to pretend to be something that I wasn’t.

 

[Phoneman777]

Romans 9:22
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

The verb "fitted" can be passive or middle voice.

If middle voice, the Jews fitted themselves for destruction in choosing to disobey God and reject Christ, Romans 2:5; 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16.

If the passive voice, God fitted those Jews for destruction does not mean God, before the world began unconditionally, randomly, with no basis predetermined those Jews to be lost. But the wicked character these Jews chose to have is why God fitted them for destruction.

Either case, passive or middle, those Jews were not predetermined by God to be lost against the will of those Jews.

I think its the height of presumption to claim one is among the "chosen few", in which the rest of humanity is denied the opportunity to take part without a shred of evidence to confirm one's membership to begin with: no confirmation number, no picture ID, no official register, not even a public acknowledgment by the club's "heavenly Grand Poobah".

Nothing more than one's own personal belief based purely on the appeal of mercy and the abhorrence of destruction, right?

 

[OzSpen]

The problem with this analysis is that it doesn't take into consideration that it is God who draws or drags each individual to Christ. Christ points out that it is not you who choose God, but God Who chooses you. "No one can come to me unless the father draw him".

shn,

The problem with your analysis is that you have not dealt with whom God draws. When I speak with Calvinists, they readily take me to John 6:44 (ESV): 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day'. I agree with this statement 100%.

Then I ask: What does the Bible teach about who can be drawn to salvation? The rapid response most often is, 'The elect'.

However, that's not what the Bible teaches according to John 12:32 (ESV) and the words of Jesus, 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself'.

All people are drawn since Jesus was lifted up (crucified). The Calvinistic problem is not only with whom is drawn but also with the extent of the grace of God. I consider the content of Titus 2:11 (ESV), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people....'

This does not teach universalism but that God's grace has been made available for the salvation of all people. ALL do not come because 'the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth' (Rom 1:18 ESV).

God has given all people from the time of Adam and Eve to reject God's drawing by their free will choices. I define free will as the ability of contrary choice given to all people.

Oz

 

[atpollard]

The problem with your analysis is that you have not dealt with whom God draws. When I speak with Calvinists, they readily take me to John 6:44 (ESV): 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day'. I agree with this statement 100%.

Then I ask: What does the Bible teach about who can be drawn to salvation? The rapid response most often is, 'The elect'.

However, that's not what the Bible teaches according to John 12:32 (ESV) and the words of Jesus, 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself'.

Your response makes Jesus out to be an idiot. In John 6, the people are grumbling when Jesus tells them the “No one can come to Him unless the Father DRAWS (to compel by force) them” ... which is an utterly nonsensical response if God draws EVERYONE. It makes Jesus’ statement completely meaningless. It would be like saying “no one can be born again unless they were born the first time” ... while a true statement, it actually says nothing.

PS. John 12:33 (you know, the very next verse) explains John 12:32 ... [John 12:32-33 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

The anti-Calvinist problem is a pathological rejection of scriptural context when misquoting verses to disprove what scripture actually teaches.

 

[Phoneman777]

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331.)

And just like that, Mr. Grudem exposes his line of reasoning as anything but reasonable by what he claims is "affirmed" in Scripture.

He clearly admits his ideas appear to lead to the inevitable, unavoidable conclusion that ultimately God is unjust for judging those as guilty of sin they who were programmed by Him with no other behavioral options to begin with...but claims as the reason why this can't actually be the case some "mysterious, unmentioned" explanation which is beyond our reach.

 

[atpollard]

Nothing more than one's own personal belief based purely on the appeal of mercy and the abhorrence of destruction, right?

Wrong.
However, I will let you find the answer in scripture for yourself ... I wouldn’t want to spoil the surprise as you discover just how many different ways God confirms His grip on you.

 

[Phoneman777]

Wrong.
However, I will let you find the answer in scripture for yourself ... I wouldn’t want to spoil the surprise as you discover just how many different ways God confirms His grip on you.

Oh, you mean 1 John 2:3-4:

"Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him".​

And the companion text - 1 John 5:2-3:

"Hereby we do know we love the children of God when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not grievous." ​

These two texts plainly confirm who it is that is God's elect, God's saints, God's redeemed, God's chosen...whatever you want to call them. And the only question that remains is are you keeping all Ten Commandments, or trying to get into heaven with a 10% discount (I'll let you guess which one I'm talking about. Hint: it's the only one that begins with "remember" that everyone seems to have forgotten)

 

[TheWind]

According to Paul these vessels are fitted for destruction by God, and one thing is clear here. The vessels fitted for destruction are not the vessels fitted for mercy. The vessels fitted for destruction show God's glory to the vessels fitted for mercy, but is that the purpose of the vessels fitted for destruction?

If God predestines some to salvation, how can the rest escape God's wrath? Moreover, what purpose could a vessel fitted for destruction have if it isn't destroyed? Isn't a vessel fitted for destruction designed to be destroyed? If God doesn't design these vessels, don't those who claim the world is Intelligently designed need to look at this inconsistency in their claims? Doesn't a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction simply become an empty concept?

A vessel fitted to destruction are all those in the old man, made in the image of man and not God. No man can escape God's wrath if that is his will. Like God hardened pharaohs heart so are these unbelievers hardened in pride that he may make his power known on the wold like he did in Egypt.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

A denial of the effects of the fall is the root of many heresies.
Romans 3:23.
.All sinned at one point in time.
All died in Adam

Jesus did not sin, infants are not born sinners, those with severe mental disabilities do not sin hence all are not "damned (lost) from the beginning". Adam and Eve were not made lost from the beginning but were not lost until they sinned in breaking God's law.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not all men were separated from God; that seed:the seed of Adam (sin and death) to be cut off? All. All borne of that seed of sin and death of Adam where all...perish. Only one seed remains. All men being of Adam’s seed first in having “borne the image of the earthly” < that seed which is cast out, cut off. <ALL or only some?

That which is Last born of God from above ...in ALL men having borne the seed of sin and death...the children of God(the promise), the everlasting seed borne of His image, bears of the image of the heavenly. Romans 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Is God unequal? Ezekiel 18:25 “Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?” Did God not subject all to vanity and the seed of corruption in that which is born first, yet subjected the same to Hope in that which is Last becomes First? Are not all under the bondage of corruption and subject to fire...or only some? “As were some of you” can not be ignored nor the: we all were children of wrath until Hope in His Mercy was revealed of God.

No one is born damned/lost. The language and context of Ephesians 2 show those Ephesians made themselves children of wrath through habitually practicing sin and not how they were born passively against their will.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think its the height of presumption to claim one is among the "chosen few", in which the rest of humanity is denied the opportunity to take part without a shred of evidence to confirm one's membership to begin with: no confirmation number, no picture ID, no official register, not even a public acknowledgment by the club's "heavenly Grand Poobah".

Nothing more than one's own personal belief based purely on the appeal of mercy and the abhorrence of destruction, right?

I have never seen one who follows tenets of Calvinism provide any objective proof they are of the "elect" but can just assume they are.
Romans 9:15 does not give a basis as to why God has mercy on one and not another, but that does not mean a basis does not exist. If there were no basis then God's choosing was purely random. If there is a basis, yet one does not know what the basis is, then one could never know with any certainty if he is or is not a recipient of God's mercy.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And just like that, Mr. Grudem exposes his line of reasoning as anything but reasonable by what he claims is "affirmed" in Scripture.

He clearly admits his ideas appear to lead to the inevitable, unavoidable conclusion that ultimately God is unjust for judging those as guilty of sin they who were programmed by Him with no other behavioral options to begin with...but claims as the reason why this can't actually be the case some "mysterious, unmentioned" explanation which is beyond our reach.

Yes, Calvinism created their own problem, not the Bible.

 

[shnarkle]

Oh, you mean 1 John 2:3-4:

"Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him".​

And the companion text - 1 John 5:2-3:

"Hereby we do know we love the children of God when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not grievous." ​

These two texts plainly confirm who it is that is God's elect, God's saints, God's redeemed, God's chosen...whatever you want to call them. And the only question that remains is are you keeping all Ten Commandments, or trying to get into heaven with a 10% discount (I'll let you guess which one I'm talking about. Hint: it's the only one that begins with "remember" that everyone seems to have forgotten)

I agree with this post, but I don't think it goes far enough in articulating what it means to keep God's commandments. Jesus points to the Pharisees as the standard that must be exceeded because they keep God's commandments, but even that isn't good enough because they're not keeping them in their hearts. The reason why one keeps God's commandments is also just as important, and the reason must be due to a regenerated heart.

Does this mean if one is aware that they do not have a regenerated heart, they might as well forget about keeping them? No, because keeping God's commandments is better than not keeping them; it just won't get one into the kingdom. It isn't a means to an end, but the consequence of God's systemic process of salvation.

 

[brakelite]

I think its the height of presumption to claim one is among the "chosen few", in which the rest of humanity is denied the opportunity to take part without a shred of evidence to confirm one's membership to begin with: no confirmation number, no picture ID, no official register, not even a public acknowledgment by the club's "heavenly Grand Poobah".

Nothing more than one's own personal belief based purely on the appeal of mercy and the abhorrence of destruction, right?

I have attempted many times to say the same thing, but not so eloquently as you have expressed it, but I fear you will receive no greater positive response than I, despite your concise wordsmithing skills.

 

[shnarkle]

I have never seen one who follows tenets of Calvinism provide any objective proof they are of the "elect" but can just assume they are.

One doesn't have to be the elect to understand and agree with the tenets of Calvinism.

 

[shnarkle]

shn,

The problem with your analysis is that you have not dealt with whom God draws. When I speak with Calvinists, they readily take me to John 6:44 (ESV): 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day'. I agree with this statement 100%.

Then I ask: What does the Bible teach about who can be drawn to salvation? The rapid response most often is, 'The elect'.

However, that's not what the Bible teaches according to John 12:32 (ESV) and the words of Jesus, 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself'.

All people are drawn since Jesus was lifted up (crucified). The Calvinistic problem is not only with whom is drawn but also with the extent of the grace of God. I consider the content of Titus 2:11 (ESV), 'For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people....'

This does not teach universalism but that God's grace has been made available for the salvation of all people. ALL do not come because 'the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth' (Rom 1:18 ESV).

God has given all people from the time of Adam and Eve to reject God's drawing by their free will choices. I define free will as the ability of contrary choice given to all people.

Oz

Sounds good. The only problem is that free will and effort isn't enough to guarantee success. This is the problem most ignore. The faith necessary isn't something we're born with. If it were we'd all be out moving mountains before breakfast. It is not our faith, but Christ's that enables only those who are being conformed to the image of Christ. We don't conform ourselves to Christ, he conforms us to him.

Again, I think the problem is in assuming that a lost sheep can remain lost; this simply isn't the case. The other false assumption is in believing that wolves can become sheep by sheer will or effort. They simply don't have any faith to begin with, and never will.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Jesus did not sin, infants are not born sinners, those with severe mental disabilities do not sin hence all are not "damned (lost) from the beginning". Adam and Eve were not made lost from the beginning but were not lost until they sinned in breaking God's law.

This is a direction of romans5

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

One doesn't have to be the elect to understand and agree with the tenets of Calvinism.

My post was about how does one who follows the tenets of Calvinism can know with any objective certainty if he is elect or not.