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Featured What is the purpose of vessels fitted for destruction?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by shnarkle, Jul 30, 2019.

  1. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    According to Paul these vessels are fitted for destruction by God, and one thing is clear here. The vessels fitted for destruction are not the vessels fitted for mercy. The vessels fitted for destruction show God's glory to the vessels fitted for mercy, but is that the purpose of the vessels fitted for destruction?

    If God predestines some to salvation, how can the rest escape God's wrath? Moreover, what purpose could a vessel fitted for destruction have if it isn't destroyed? Isn't a vessel fitted for destruction designed to be destroyed? If God doesn't design these vessels, don't those who claim the world is Intelligently designed need to look at this inconsistency in their claims? Doesn't a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction simply become an empty concept?
     
  2. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9:22
    "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

    The verb "fitted" can be passive or middle voice.

    If middle voice, the Jews fitted themselves for destruction in choosing to disobey God and reject Christ, Romans 2:5; 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16.

    If the passive voice, God fitted those Jews for destruction does not mean God, before the world began unconditionally, randomly, with no basis predetermined those Jews to be lost. But the wicked character these Jews chose to have is why God fitted them for destruction.

    Either case, passive or middle, those Jews were not predetermined by God to be lost against the will of those Jews.
     
  3. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    He’s fitted you so to reveal himself.
     
  4. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this reply. This is an insightful observation. However, I don't think Paul would come to the same conclusion you have because his argument has already established that we're all damned to begin with. No one is righteous, no one seeks after God or his righteousness. "no not one". The carnal man cannot please God, and wouldn't if he could. So ultimately, this is a distinction with no effective difference.

    This is why I marvel at Paul's argument. He's presented something that is air tight.
     
  5. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    One other thing about Romans 9:22.

    --It says God endured with much longsuffering those vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.
    --Peter and Paul agree the purpose of God's longsuffering is salvation, 2 Peter 3:15
    --what sense does it make that would God be longsuffering towards those vessels of wrath to be saved if God already predetermined they be lost?

    The quote in Romans 3 that no one seeks God is directed specifically at the Jews Romans 3:19, to prove that the Jew were sinners and no better than the Gentile, Romans 3:9 when it came to justification. In Romans 3:11 Paul was quoting David that none seek after God yet David was one who sought after God, Psalms 34:4. Jehoshaphat was one who sought the Lord 2 Chronicles 17:3-4. Uzziah sought the Lord 2 Chronicles 26:5. Men have been told to seek the Lord, Deuteronomy 4:29. Men have been commanded to seek the Lord, Isaiah 55:6. Paul says men can seek the Lord and find Him, Acts of the Apostles 17:27, Acts of the Apostles 15:17. God rewards those that seek after Him, Hebrews 11:6. How do you reconcile Romans 3:11 that none seek God with the verses that show men did seek God, men are commanded to seek God and men found God?
     
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  6. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Good question, and thanks for responding to my post with so much to back up your point. It is truly refreshing to see someone who is able to provide such an abundant amount of scripture to back up their point. This is what debate is all about.

    The problem I see with all of this is that this is all within the context of Paul's doctrine of election, and Paul distinguishes between those who "walk after the Spirit" and those who don't. We can all seek God, and never find him because we're not seeking by faith. David sought God, but David "fulfilled the lust of the flesh", and Paul points out that those who "walk after the spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh".

    I'm not sure I see any point to Paul spending so much time composing this letter dealing with election is he could have simply just pointed out that no matter what you do, everyone is predetermined to be the elect of God.

    Faith comes by hearing, and yet not everyone hears which indicates to me that not everyone is saved. The idea of judgment and condemnation is pervasive throughout the texts. There are those who are "foreknown" and "predestined" for mercy and those who aren't. There are sheep and there are goats. No matter how hard one may try, they can't will themselves to change from wolves into sheep. No one can work themselves from a tare into wheat.

    See the problem yet? I'm not presenting a scenario where a lost sheep is damned. I'm presenting a scenario where you become aware that you're not only not a lost sheep, you're a wolf in sheep's clothing.

    So do you continue to live this lie of pretending to be a sheep, or do you live as a wolf? Perhaps it doesn't really matter because you're still a wolf devouring sheep. The question really revolves around how you react to knowing who you really are.

    Ultimately, you still haven't addressed the question. Most people never do, and for obvious reasons. It is one of the most disturbing questions I've ever pondered.
     
  7. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    I do not agree with your premise in your OP that God predestines some men to be saved leaving the rest to be lost. The Bible does not teach unconditional election of individuals. Calvinism does but not the Bible. If God unconditionally predetermined one individual to be saved and not another, then that would make God a respecter of persons when He is not, Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35; Romans 3:6-11.

    The Bible does teach God foreknew and predestined a GROUP that would be called Christian. Yet God has not unconditionally predetermined for each person which person will or will not be in the group, God left that decision up to man thereby God cannot be a respecter of persons when man is making the decision.

    A Calvinist Professor named Wayne Grudem in His book 'Systematic Theology" wrote: (in blue)

    "In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery" (Systematic Theology, p.331.)

    See the problem Calvinism creates for itself by teaching something that is not in the Bible? God does not unconditionally preordain certain men to be lost nor preordain men to do evil just so God can hold them accountable and punish men for doing evil God caused them to do. What Calvinism falsely claims makes God out to be an unjust, unloving sadistic ogre instead of the loving, just, holy God the Bible speaks about. You did not answer why God would be longsuffering towards the vessels of wrath if God is the one who unconditionally made them vessels of wrath.
    Ezekiel 18:32; Ezekiel 33:11 why is it God has no pleasure in the wicked dying but instead wants the wicked to turn and live if God already unconditionally predetermine them to be wicked and lost?

    Paul is NOT writing about Calvinistic election in Romans 9 but instead is refuting the arguments he knew the Jews would make in God having cast them off. Nor did Paul ever say "all men are damned to begin with".
     
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  8. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    Musings of an apostate Calvinist?
     
  9. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Intelligent design to abase all pride and to bring down every high lofty thing lifted above Christ, bringing all unto the subjection to Christ. A vessel fitted for destruction destroys. A vessel of destruction wastes. A vessel of destruction consumes and devours. A vessel of mercy does what it says...reveals mercy. Consider 1 Corinthians 5:5-6 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. [6] Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

    To put an end to any enemy or adversary of God, a vessel fitted to be destroyed ...to destroy could mean something more. Could mean so the will of God can be seen in destruction of the flesh “that the spirit may be saved”. Remember John 9:2-3 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? [3] Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


    Again: to deliver such a one unto Satan to destroy the flesh. To be consumed, devoured, destroyed. Paul said he wasted the Church of God and destroyed it. Paul was a vessel of destruction “a chief of all sinners” but “that the works of God should be made manifest” ...That vessel “Saul” was destroyed and Paul is manifested for God’s glory in rather than wasting becoming a vessel of mercy towards edification and not destruction. We have all been vessels fitted for destruction(natural birth)...but He chooses mercy, delights in it. His mercy is manifest on what was once a weapon fitted for destruction in New Life born, come down from above.

    In destroying the weapons of destruction...peace increases and His fruit
    Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    And there is blessing through His seed. Again “to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so the spirit may be saved...” happens now, in the flesh decreases and He increases. May not Appear that way 1 Peter 1:7-8 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: [8] Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:






    1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.
    -In favor of HIS appearance. To make manifest in abundance the “appearance of evil” or to make in abundance the love of His appearing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
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  10. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Then why does Paul use the word "predestined"?

    Non sequitur. God doesn't choose anyone based upon their works. There is nothing anyone can do to work their way into the kingdom. All of humanity is fallen, and deserves damnation.

    The problem with this analysis is that it doesn't take into consideration that it is God who draws or drags each individual to Christ. Christ points out that it is not you who choose God, but God Who chooses you. "No one can come to me unless the father draw him".

    Moreover, how did God predestinate the church to adoption without predestinating certain individual members? How does God guarantee the future existence of the whole without guaranteeing the future existence of the parts? How does Christ save the flock without going after that one individual lost sheep?

    Was Jacob adopted? Obviously. When? Before the foundation of the world. Was he adopted because of his fine qualities? No; he was adopted before he was born. Paul makes all of this inescapably clear in Romans 9. But what about Esau? Was he adopted? Obviously not.

    There's much talk today about gender fluidity, or gender identification, but is this even real? Most would point out that it clearly isn't something that one can actually change. For those who see that a man is not a woman, it should be equally apparent that a sheep cannot will themselves to become wolves, nor can tares become wheat. Again, Paul isn't dealing with lost sheep and found sheep; he's dealing with wolves and sheep.

    Then there is no point to Paul's argument. There is no reason to point out that it is a given that God is just if he's simply pointing out that we are responsible for our own actions. Paul is not that clueless in his use of language.

    Paul answers the question himself. He supplies us with two reasons; "to make his power known" to those vessels of wrath, and "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"

    Who is doing the preparing? God or the vessels of mercy?

    Why do you believe these are mutually exclusive propositions? More importantly, how do you reconcile the fact that the carnal man CAN'T repent, cast sheep can't stand and return to the sheep fold; with this idea that we can choose to repent or save ourselves?

    So are you then assuming that when Jesus points out that he only came for the lost, or those who were sick that there are those who are not in need of salvation? Are there those who are able to justify themselves apart from Christ's sacrifice? If so, then who are they, and why do we need Christ if these righteous ones can tell us the same thing Christ did? If not, then what else could Paul mean?
     
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  11. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Excellent points! A very concise and articulate argument, and one that I can't begin to refute. It makes perfect sense. Very well done!

    However, it does open a whole new can of worms for those who insist that Christ's corpse was resurrected three days after his death, doesn't it?

    I don't see a problem in that physical corpses don't walk through locked doors, or spontaneously appear and disappear. They don't point out to people that they can't be touched either.
     
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  12. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    Amen... even as Pharaoh in Egypt had already selected his own pathway of destruction before Moses came to him asking that he let the children of Israel go. God then used this "vessel of wrath fitted for destruction" as the "left" hand of God to accomplish His own purposes. God did not need to remake Pharaoh. He simply made use of what was available.
     
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  13. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    To begin with: Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
     
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  14. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

    Doesn’t say man is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    (Matthew 3:9).

    Why does man need to hold onto man had anything to do with being counted as a vessel of mercy. What is a “hardened heart”? Who is able to raise of “stones” children unto Abraham in “I will give you a New heart.” Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

    Zechariah 7:12
    [12] Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts.

    God can raise up children of wrath unto mercy (no longer appointed to wrath) where and whenever He chooses?1 Corinthians 6:8-11 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. [9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    God is able of stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Can man do that? Does it matter what minor part man plays in man’s own salvation? Only if man has to maintain and keep what man had no power of his own to do in the first place. Genesis 50:18-20 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. [19] And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? [20] But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

    “Fear not: for am I in the place of God.” All the provision in the famine to feed them, the store...all prepared to save many alive was the work of God, not Joseph. Fear God. Revelation 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. [9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

    Even the: “of them which keep of the sayings of this book” Is a Work of God and not man in His Spirit chooses when to reveal, when open, when to shut, when to seal and when to loose. “the sayings of this book” ...worship God.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  15. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    Hi,

    All men will die physically but all men are not damned / lost to begin with.
     
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  16. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    A denial of the effects of the fall is the root of many heresies.
    Romans 3:23.
    .All sinned at one point in time.
    All died in Adam
     
  17. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Not all men were separated from God; that seed:the seed of Adam (sin and death) to be cut off? All. All borne of that seed of sin and death of Adam where all...perish. Only one seed remains. All men being of Adam’s seed first in having “borne the image of the earthly” < that seed which is cast out, cut off. <ALL or only some?

    That which is Last born of God from above ...in ALL men having borne the seed of sin and death...the children of God(the promise), the everlasting seed borne of His image, bears of the image of the heavenly. Romans 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    Is God unequal? Ezekiel 18:25 “Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?” Did God not subject all to vanity and the seed of corruption in that which is born first, yet subjected the same to Hope in that which is Last becomes First? Are not all under the bondage of corruption and subject to fire...or only some? “As were some of you” can not be ignored nor the: we all were children of wrath until Hope in His Mercy was revealed of God.
     
  18. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Is there a point to this post? Do you think I'm asking how people would react finding out they're going to die? Any chance you might be able to answer the actual question presented?
     
  19. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    I’m sorry then. I must have misunderstood the question. Thought the discussion was the different vessels and escaping wrath. Won’t post anymore. Didn’t mean to disrupt.
     
  20. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me you sometimes make things more complicated or difficult than they need to be. I cannot understand why you posted all of those verses which do not simplify or explain your viewpoint to me... but I will express as I can where I am at the moment and perhaps you will be able to understand it and apply some part of it to yourself:

    Adam and Eve were dead in the day they disobeyed God. They, and all of their offspring [born to dead parents], were dead, but not without hope. The hope which a man sought, or did not seek, during and at the end of his allotted time could and would determine his final end either continuing dead with the last vestige of hope gone... or Alive having taken what God has offered to us through His Son, Jesus, the Messiah.

    It may be more difficult for us to understand with regard to those living their time under OT ways but there has been it seems to me an open door that could have been taken which somehow ultimately was the Way to abundant Life Jesus was to bring. Most people then [OT], as most people now [NT], did not choose Life. From those that did not or do not, God will use them where they are when the need arises to accomplish His purposes in others as He used pharaoh in the situation with the natural children of Israel enslaved in Egypt.

    Also God will likely use sometimes those today who at the moment are walking in death... even though they may later encounter and choose Life themselves. This another of those seemingly impossible things because our minds cannot understand such an all knowing, all powerful God, not fully.

    People by their foolish and/or ignorant choices fit themselves for destruction... Adam and Eve were simply the first ones recorded as having take such a pathway. Everyone who has ever disobeyed God or followed his own ways has made such choices.

    People will believe or think they believe that God did this...ultimately allowing no choice for the final end of any given man... I disagree but who among us can prove absolutely to the satisfaction of every other person such a thing? Not me! You?

    Go back to this verse which is on of my own fall backs to help me understand the judgments of God:

    "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

    God, who knows exactly what each person has had available during his particular allotted time, also knows exactly what each person has done with that which was available. He is therefore the only One who could deal fairly with us rendering a perfectly fair final judgment.
     
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