What is the purpose of vessels fitted for destruction?

[brakelite]

Saul was destroyed becoming known as Paul. God relieved him of his pain.

Indeed. and mine. But not everyone is so blessed that in this life they see light. Most carry the darkness into eternity... Does God "convert" them after they leave this earth that universalists imagine must take place... Perhaps after a time in purgatory?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Indeed. and mine. But not everyone is so blessed that in this life they see light. Most carry the darkness into eternity... Does God "convert" them after they leave this earth that universalists imagine must take place... Perhaps after a time in purgatory?

Perhaps through active mercy of “bless those that curse you” and all nations will be “blessed” through His seed unto the Praise and glory of God.

 

[Waiting on him]

Rev 9:21—“And the rest of the human race did not repent of their murders, their magic arts, their acts of fornication, or their thefts.” This verse begins with a repeat of verse 20, but now adds sins related to the second table of the Ten Commandments (the sixth, seventh and eighth commandments) with the addition of “magic arts” (Greek: pharmakôn) or sorcery (ESV, KJV, NASB, RSV, NRSV). This would appear to be a listing of the chief sins of paganism. The sorcery reference is parallel to the worshiping of demons in the previous verse. Sorcery (LXX: pharmakeiais) was the means by which the magicians of Egypt counterfeited the early plagues of the Exodus. It is also one of the sins for which Babylon came under judgment in the Septuagint (Isa 47:9, 12). Idolatry and sorcery (Greek: pharmakeia) are also associated together in Galatians 5:20, Revelation 21:8 and 22:15.
Now these folk who refused to repent, have they not always been sinners? To what could they be restored to, seeing it has ever been their mind to rebel?

This word pharmakeia is where we get the modern pharmaceutical.

 

[brakelite]

This word pharmakeia is where we get the modern pharmaceutical.

Yes, fairly compelling reason for natural medicine.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

At natural birth a person is effectively dead in the eyes of God. This does not change until and if he meets the Master and receives Life. Jesus speaks here of some of those who have not yet received Life:

I see in the Bible that infants are born innocent in God's eyes (Matthew 19:14) not having committed any sin Romans 9:11, hence not born 'dead'. Those that are born, live and die with severe mental disabilities are not born dead nor ever dead before God but are innocent in that they never mentally matured becoming accountable to God's laws.

Children, upon maturing mentally, learns right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16 - Romans 7:7-9) become accountable to God and become dead to God when they sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All men are justified by the blood of the Lamb who gave His life for the whole world. It is not saying that everyone accepted that gift through faith. The just shall live by faith... Not all do.

Hi,

In the context of Romans 5, when it comes to "many made sinners" is that are conditionally made sinners for they have chosen to sin Romans 5:12 and not Unconditionally born that way. "Many made righteous" are done so when one conditionally has faith Romans 5:1-2.

I do not agree that "all men are justified by the blood of Christ". Romans 6:16-18 those that conditionally have a faithful obedience are the ones that are "freed from sin" (justified).

 

[Stranger]

According to Paul these vessels are fitted for destruction by God, and one thing is clear here. The vessels fitted for destruction are not the vessels fitted for mercy. The vessels fitted for destruction show God's glory to the vessels fitted for mercy, but is that the purpose of the vessels fitted for destruction?

If God predestines some to salvation, how can the rest escape God's wrath? Moreover, what purpose could a vessel fitted for destruction have if it isn't destroyed? Isn't a vessel fitted for destruction designed to be destroyed? If God doesn't design these vessels, don't those who claim the world is Intelligently designed need to look at this inconsistency in their claims? Doesn't a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction simply become an empty concept?

The vessels fitted for destruction are for destruction. That is God's purpose for them.

The vessels fitted for mercy are for mercy. That is God's purpose for them.

The vessels fitted for destruction cannot escape the wrath of God.

The vessels of wrath are not a concept but real people destined for destruction.

Just because God created vessels of wrath does not take away from Him being the Creator.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Those that are born, live and die with severe mental disabilities are not born dead nor dead before God but are innocent in that they never mentally matured becoming accountable to God's laws.

Maybe you are right. A lady who works with mental disabled children was telling us the other day about the children she does bible study with. She said others from her church go with her to have bible study with these children and they(the disable) children teach them. She said ‘her kids’ don’t complicate the beauty or wonder of God. But accept without all the interference of pride and needing to overstate or be right. Maybe children are not born dead but become so by the sins and destructiveness of the world. Vessels “built” for destruction ...vessels built of sins, lust, greed, and selfishness to grow up into vessels that do what the vessel has been fed to do...death and destruction. When does a child lose trust, and the ability to easily love, and forgive and become enraged, discouraged and hell-bent on destruction. What has happened to children today who walk in and murder their peers. A vessel destroying as it has been taught to destroy. Destruction can begin early in an abused infant...a vessel built for destruction...we have no idea what they have seen or experienced but God sees. The world is cruel, seeks bloodshed, and is eager to injure emotionally and physically another. Will have to look for scripture that says a child is born dead...makes no sense then as Jesus Christ said you must be as a child...born ANEW and then God the Father teaches Mercy. Feeding His vessel something other than destruction.

 

[brakelite]

Just because God created vessels of wrath does not take away from Him being the Creator.

But did He ever intend that anyone should remain a vessel of wrath?

 

[Stranger]

But did He ever intend that anyone should remain a vessel of wrath?

Yes. That was His purpose for them. (Rom 9:8-22)

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes. That was His purpose for them. (Rom 9:8-22)

Stranger

So cold. At least there is acknowledgment that vessels of dishonor were once under wrath since one is to enter out of the wrath Of God revealed against all sin into His Rest. Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Meaning all come out of wrath but by entering into His rest 2 Timothy 2:21
[21] If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

But we also see Jesus Christ is able to purge His floor. Matthew 3:12
[12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


What makes no sense is a vessel of mercy does what it was fitted (wrought)of God to do ...in it is MORE blessed to give (blessing) than to receive(blessing). How can one born of a quickening (LIFE GIVING) Spirit do the opposite of what it was fitted (wrought) of God to do and curse rather than bless.

He said He set before us ...blessing or cursing. Everyone here has been in His word enough to know all the verses on God saying if you obey His voice. Even Jesus Christ said they are to hear and obey His voice. Born of a “Life giving Spirit” what does it mean in trees planted of the Lord which are FOR the healing of the nations. Remember He became a curse so that those yet in sin could be blessed with Life.

Genesis 22:17-18 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; [18] And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

IN BLESSING ...I will bless thee ...goes with mercy is given to those who are merciful. If one is of Abraham who rejoiced to see HIS day would one not do the works of Abraham ...because “And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”

Are the children of promise a cursing unto all the earth...or a BLESSING unto all the earth? Glory prepared of and for God to be revealed in His children? What do you think that glory is? To be seen as He IS. A blessing rather than a curse. What comes out of our mouth ...death or Life? How do we deceive ourselves by speaking curse yet claiming blessing for ourself. That is no “quickening LIFE GIVING Spirit” but withholding Life in unrighteousness and refusing to give what was given freely for His namesake.

Psalm 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Job 36:20-21 Desire not the night, when people are cut off in their place. [21] Take heed, regard not iniquity: for this hast thou chosen rather than affliction.

 

[amadeus]

I see in the Bible that infants are born innocent in God's eyes (Matthew 19:14) not having committed any sin Romans 9:11, hence not born 'dead'. Those that are born, live and die with severe mental disabilities are not born dead nor ever dead before God but are innocent in that they never mentally matured becoming accountable to God's laws.

Children, upon maturing mentally, learns right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16 - Romans 7:7-9) become accountable to God and become dead to God when they sin.

Innocent certainly but without the Life that Jesus brought. So what is their final end if they die before receiving Life and before they become accountable? My own belief, not a popular one in my experience is that they are bound to their parents and live or die accordingly. To those would say God would not do that they should consider the fate of the infants and small children of Amalek when they were are killed along with all of the adults by the forces of King Saul in accord with the will of God... a God who is no respecter of persons and a God who never changes.

 

[Stranger]

So cold. At least there is acknowledgment that vessels of dishonor were once under wrath since one is to enter out of the wrath Of God revealed against all sin into His Rest. Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Meaning all come out of wrath but by entering into His rest 2 Timothy 2:21
[21] If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

But we also see Jesus Christ is able to purge His floor. Matthew 3:12
[12] Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


What makes no sense is a vessel of mercy does what it was fitted (wrought)of God to do ...in it is MORE blessed to give (blessing) than to receive(blessing). How can one born of a quickening (LIFE GIVING) Spirit do the opposite of what it was fitted (wrought) of God to do and curse rather than bless.

He said He set before us ...blessing or cursing. Everyone here has been in His word enough to know all the verses on God saying if you obey His voice. Even Jesus Christ said they are to hear and obey His voice. Born of a “Life giving Spirit” what does it mean in trees planted of the Lord which are FOR the healing of the nations. Remember He became a curse so that those yet in sin could be blessed with Life.

Genesis 22:17-18 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; [18] And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

IN BLESSING ...I will bless thee ...goes with mercy is given to those who are merciful. If one is of Abraham who rejoiced to see HIS day would one not do the works of Abraham ...because “And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”

Are the children of promise a cursing unto all the earth...or a BLESSING unto all the earth? Glory prepared of and for God to be revealed in His children? What do you think that glory is? To be seen as He IS. A blessing rather than a curse. What comes out of our mouth ...death or Life? How do we deceive ourselves by speaking curse yet claiming blessing for ourself. That is no “quickening LIFE GIVING Spirit” but withholding Life in unrighteousness and refusing to give what was given freely for His namesake.

Psalm 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

Job 36:20-21 Desire not the night, when people are cut off in their place. [21] Take heed, regard not iniquity: for this hast thou chosen rather than affliction.

Sorry. I have read and reread your statements here and cannot tell what you are trying to say. Perhaps you can break it down a little more. Give me a single sentence of what you have said.

Stranger

 

[OzSpen]

I agree with some here that we are born dead. Born in the image of fallen man. (Genesis 5:3). We confirm that hereditary image through actively sinning... Without exception. It is only through being born again that we may begin the process of taking on the image once again of our Creator.
KJV Romans 8
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Only as we take that image, can we overcome sin as Christ overcame.
It is then, I think, at the new birth, that our names are written in the book of life. Some may suggest that Revelation 17:8 confirms predestination because it suggests our names are written in the book at creation. I'm not so sure. One could read that verse as saying names began to be included in the book from that time. Don't know. I have little doubt though that names can be scrubbed out.

brakelite,

How do you account for sinners after the Fall who have this image/likeness of God in them?

but no one can tame the tongue—a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse those who are made in the likeness of God (James 3:8-9 NRSV).​

The OT continues to affirm that after the Fall into sin, human beings continue to be made in the image of God:

'Whoever sheds human blood, by humans his blood will be shed, for God made humans in his image' (Gen 9:6 CSB).​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

What happened when Jesus was lifted up?
That is probably what Jesus meant would happen.

That doesn't answer my question of meaning of ALL drawn to Jesus when he was lifted up?

 

[Helen]

How happy and content do you think people would be in the presence of God and choirs of angels and men singing His praises.. People who all their lives spurned any and every offer of the gospel, despising righteousness and hating those who upheld God's laws. If they were uncomfortable in church now, why would they be any more comfortable in heaven? Would it not be agony for them being so out of their comfort zone? By destroying them, would not God be relieving them off their pain?

What about "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. "

I can't throw that right out...along with many other verses..
But, I hold it lightly.....

 

[brakelite]

What about "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. "

I can't throw that right out...along with many other verses..
But, I hold it lightly.....

Yes, the time will come when all will indeed finally confess that Jesus is worthy of His position...He is Who He is. But how many will be doing that , not from a sense of love and surrender, but from a sense of compelling irresistible in their face truth...under duress. Yet in the hearts trhey still hate everything He stands for.

 

[brakelite]

brakelite,

How do you account for sinners after the Fall who have this image/likeness of God in them?

but no one can tame the tongue—a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse those who are made in the likeness of God (James 3:8-9 NRSV).​

The OT continues to affirm that after the Fall into sin, human beings continue to be made in the image of God:

'Whoever sheds human blood, by humans his blood will be shed, for God made humans in his image' (Gen 9:6 CSB).​

Oz

Good question. But if we haven't lost that image and likeness, why do we need to be born again? How can we claim to be now the image and likeness of God knowing full well our fallen natures?

 

[OzSpen]

Good question. But if we haven't lost that image and likeness, why do we need to be born again? How can we claim to be now the image and likeness of God knowing full well our fallen natures?

Has anyone in this thread attempted to unpack the meaning of human beings 'made in the image/likeness of God'. It can't refer to a physical body because God is spirit (Jn 4:24).

 

[GodsGrace]

Good question. But if we haven't lost that image and likeness, why do we need to be born again? How can we claim to be now the image and likeness of God knowing full well our fallen natures?

Hi BL,,,
Ozspen will reply for himself...he has much more knowledge than us. Much more.

However, I'd like to answer also.
We had preternatural gifts before the fall..for instance, man was made to never die.
That is a preternatural gift. Man was made to get along with animals and nature...that is a preternatural gift.

These types of gifts were lost when man fell. He lost immortality and his relationship to animals and nature and also to God, Who would no longer walk with man as He once did in the Garden.

But man is STILL made in the image of God.
There are some attributes of God that man also has, although they are no longer perfect and are tainted with the sin nature.

Some of these attributes are:
Free will
Sociability
Family
Love
Morals

God has all of the above attributes...
except that they are PERFECT in Him.