What is the purpose of vessels fitted for destruction?

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is a direction of romans5

If Romans 5:18 - (a) teaches 'all men' are born lost then 18 - (b) shows that same 'all men' will be saved and you have Universalism. Rom 5:18 is an "if-then" type statement where if (a) is true then so is (b). Yet the verse does not teach all men are born lost sinners therefore does not teach Universalism.

Romans 5:19 "were made sinners" ….. "were made righteous". This verse does not say many were made sinners Unconditionally. Nor does it say many were made righteous Unconditionally.

 

[shnarkle]

My post was about how does one who follows the tenets of Calvinism can know with any objective certainty if he is elect or not.

And again, one doesn't need to be a proponent of Calvinism to objectively know whether they live a sinless life. It is not possible for the elect to be deceived, therefore the only way they could sin would be to intentionally sin; which disqualifies them from being elect in the first place.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And again, one doesn't need to be a proponent of Calvinism to objectively know whether they live a sinless life. It is not possible for the elect to be deceived, therefore the only way they could sin would be to intentionally sin; which disqualifies them from being elect in the first place.

From 1 John 1:7-10 ALL Christians sin, both intentionally and unintentionally. Since ALL Christians do sin how can anyone know for certain if he/she is of the elect or not?

Again in Romans 9:15 what is the basis God uses to determine to have mercy upon one person and not another? If you do not know the basis then how can you know with any objective certainty you are of the elect? A

 

[shnarkle]

From 1 John 1:7-10 ALL Christians sin, both intentionally and unintentionally. Since ALL Christians do sin how can anyone know for certain if he/she is of the elect or not?

Again in Romans 9:15 what is the basis God uses to determine to have mercy upon one person and not another? If you do not know the basis then how can you know with any objective certainty you are of the elect?

You can't speak for all Christians. All "have sinned" does not mean that all continue to sin. The new testament authors point this fact out repeatedly. The author of Hebrews points out that Christ's sacrifice covers those sins committed under the old testament, but makes no mention of sins committed under the new. This leaves us with few options to select from. Either those under the new covenant don't sin, or their sins aren't covered. Take your pick. The authors of the new testament seem to indicate that they may not be mutually exclusive propositions.

 

[Phoneman777]

I have attempted many times to say the same thing, but not so eloquently as you have expressed it, but I fear you will receive no greater positive response than I, despite your concise wordsmithing skills.

You're too kind, my brother LOL

To God be the glory, great things He has done. Amen!

 

[Helen]

No one is born damned/lost. The language and context of Ephesians 2 show those Ephesians made themselves children of wrath through habitually practicing sin and not how they were born passively against their will.

It seems to me that everyone is IN...until they aren't.

Moses said .."if not blot my name out of the book of life..."
so it seems as if we were all in...
...now I have talked myself into a circle...because where does that leave "the new birth"...which is a 'special day' when our eyes are opened....

Ummm- Now I will have to think on these thing.


@brakelite @Enoch111 ?

 

[shnarkle]

It seems to me that everyone is IN...until they aren't.

Moses said .."if not blot my name out of the book of life..."
so it seems as if we were all in...
...now I have talked myself into a circle...because where does that leave "the new birth"...which is a 'special day' when our eyes are opened....

Ummm- Now I will have to think on these thing.
View attachment 6922

@brakelite @Enoch111 ?

I don't think it is some arbitrary coincidence that the analogy of birth is used. No one is born according to their will. People do not will themselves to give birth to themselves. We are born, and it is passively.

"The Spirit breaths where HE WILL, we hear the sound of his voice, but we know not where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

 

[OzSpen]

Your response makes Jesus out to be an idiot. In John 6, the people are grumbling when Jesus tells them the “No one can come to Him unless the Father DRAWS (to compel by force) them” ... which is an utterly nonsensical response if God draws EVERYONE. It makes Jesus’ statement completely meaningless. It would be like saying “no one can be born again unless they were born the first time” ... while a true statement, it actually says nothing.

PS. John 12:33 (you know, the very next verse) explains John 12:32 ... [John 12:32-33 NASB] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

The anti-Calvinist problem is a pathological rejection of scriptural context when misquoting verses to disprove what scripture actually teaches.

So,

What then is the meaning of John 12:32, 'I ... will draw all men to Myself'?

 

[Enoch111]

One doesn't have to be the elect to understand and agree with the tenets of Calvinism.

No. All one needs to be is obtuse.

 

[OzSpen]

Sounds good. The only problem is that free will and effort isn't enough to guarantee success. This is the problem most ignore. The faith necessary isn't something we're born with. If it were we'd all be out moving mountains before breakfast. It is not our faith, but Christ's that enables only those who are being conformed to the image of Christ. We don't conform ourselves to Christ, he conforms us to him.

Again, I think the problem is in assuming that a lost sheep can remain lost; this simply isn't the case. The other false assumption is in believing that wolves can become sheep by sheer will or effort. They simply don't have any faith to begin with, and never will.

“Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Joshua 24:14-15 ESV)​

See:

• What is the nature of human free will?
  
  
• 
  Can people choose to reject salvation?
  

 

[Enoch111]

Ummm- Now I will have to think on these thing.

1. Ernest is wrong in thinking that all are not lost and therefore all need to be saved. The whole world is guilty before God.

2. At the same time, all names are written in the Book of Life until they choose to be blotted out through unbelief (or choosing darkness over light).

3. The New Birth is a result of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved (John 1:12,13). It is an absolute necessity to see and enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3).

 

[OzSpen]

One doesn't have to be the elect to understand and agree with the tenets of Calvinism.

Who said so?

 

[atpollard]

So,

What then is the meaning of John 12:32, 'I ... will draw all men to Myself'?

What happened when Jesus was lifted up?
That is probably what Jesus meant would happen.

 

[amadeus]

No one is born damned/lost. The language and context of Ephesians 2 show those Ephesians made themselves children of wrath through habitually practicing sin and not how they were born passively against their will.

At natural birth a person is effectively dead in the eyes of God. This does not change until and if he meets the Master and receives Life. Jesus speaks here of some of those who have not yet received Life:

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

Those who have always been dead, simply have only the hope of being converted before they run out of time. Most of them it would seem to me, do not:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:13-14

 

[brakelite]

I agree with some here that we are born dead. Born in the image of fallen man. (Genesis 5:3). We confirm that hereditary image through actively sinning... Without exception. It is only through being born again that we may begin the process of taking on the image once again of our Creator.
KJV Romans 8
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Only as we take that image, can we overcome sin as Christ overcame.
It is then, I think, at the new birth, that our names are written in the book of life. Some may suggest that Revelation 17:8 confirms predestination because it suggests our names are written in the book at creation. I'm not so sure. One could read that verse as saying names began to be included in the book from that time. Don't know. I have little doubt though that names can be scrubbed out.

 

[Helen]

Some may suggest that Revelation 17:8 confirms predestination because it suggests our names are written in the book at creation. I'm not so sure. One could read that verse as saying names began to be included in the book from that time. Don't know. I have little doubt though that names can be scrubbed out.

Almost thou persuadest me ....
....to not believe in the "restoration of all things.."

 

[brakelite]

Almost thou persuadest me ....
....to not believe in the "restoration of all things.."

How happy and content do you think people would be in the presence of God and choirs of angels and men singing His praises.. People who all their lives spurned any and every offer of the gospel, despising righteousness and hating those who upheld God's laws. If they were uncomfortable in church now, why would they be any more comfortable in heaven? Would it not be agony for them being so out of their comfort zone? By destroying them, would not God be relieving them off their pain?

 

[brakelite]

If Romans 5:18 - (a) teaches 'all men' are born lost then 18 - (b) shows that same 'all men' will be saved and you have Universalism. Rom 5:18 is an "if-then" type statement where if (a) is true then so is (b). Yet the verse does not teach all men are born lost sinners therefore does not teach Universalism.

Romans 5:19 "were made sinners" ….. "were made righteous". This verse does not say many were made sinners Unconditionally. Nor does it say many were made righteous Unconditionally.

All men are justified by the blood of the Lamb who gave His life for the whole world. It is not saying that everyone accepted that gift through faith. The just shall live by faith... Not all do.

 

[brakelite]

Almost thou persuadest me ....
....to not believe in the "restoration of all things.."

Rev 9:21—“And the rest of the human race did not repent of their murders, their magic arts, their acts of fornication, or their thefts.” This verse begins with a repeat of verse 20, but now adds sins related to the second table of the Ten Commandments (the sixth, seventh and eighth commandments) with the addition of “magic arts” (Greek: pharmakôn) or sorcery (ESV, KJV, NASB, RSV, NRSV). This would appear to be a listing of the chief sins of paganism. The sorcery reference is parallel to the worshiping of demons in the previous verse. Sorcery (LXX: pharmakeiais) was the means by which the magicians of Egypt counterfeited the early plagues of the Exodus. It is also one of the sins for which Babylon came under judgment in the Septuagint (Isa 47:9, 12). Idolatry and sorcery (Greek: pharmakeia) are also associated together in Galatians 5:20, Revelation 21:8 and 22:15.
Now these folk who refused to repent, have they not always been sinners? To what could they be restored to, seeing it has ever been their mind to rebel?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

How happy and content do you think people would be in the presence of God and choirs of angels and men singing His praises.. People who all their lives spurned any and every offer of the gospel, despising righteousness and hating those who upheld God's laws. If they were uncomfortable in church now, why would they be any more comfortable in heaven? Would it not be agony for them being so out of their comfort zone? By destroying them, would not God be relieving them off their pain?

Saul was destroyed becoming known as Paul. God relieved him of his pain.