What is the purpose of vessels fitted for destruction?

[GodsGrace]

Good question. But if we haven't lost that image and likeness, why do we need to be born again? How can we claim to be now the image and likeness of God knowing full well our fallen natures?

P.S.
I'm sure that you know that we need to be born again so we could REGAIN our RELATIONSHIP with God which was broken and is broken until we are born from above and His spirit awakens our spirit.

 

[brakelite]

Some of these attributes are:
Free will
Sociability
Family
Love
Morals

I don't want to completely scuttle your post, because I hear what you're saying. But...
Free will... We are bound in sin, and need Christ to set us free. We are not free to do that ourselves.
Sociability... Like Cain with Abel?
Family.... The divorce rate in the church is no better than outside it.
Love... The opposite of love is Selfishness... Name me one person who wasnt born Selfish
Morals.... Yeah, right. Sorry, but the image is broken. True, there are glimpses and hints here and there and we thank God for that... But the state of the world and man had been on steady decline since the fall and is about to bottom out. Sin is a cancer and they only solution is death.

 

[brakelite]

Has anyone in this thread attempted to unpack the meaning of human beings 'made in the image/likeness of God'. It can't refer to a physical body because God is spirit (Jn 4:24).

What we have remaining is the capacity... The potential to be recreated in the image of Christ. If we were already created in the image of Christ why would God predestine His children to be conformed again?

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't want to completely scuttle your post, because I hear what you're saying. But...
Free will... We are bound in sin, and need Christ to set us free. We are not free to do that ourselves.
Sociability... Like Cain with Abel?
Family.... The divorce rate in the church is no better than outside it.
Love... The opposite of love is Selfishness... Name me one person who wasnt born Selfish
Morals.... Yeah, right. Sorry, but the image is broken. True, there are glimpses and hints here and there and we thank God for that... But the state of the world and man had been on steady decline since the fall and is about to bottom out. Sin is a cancer and they only solution is death.

BL,,,,this is a known fact.
I'm not going to debate it.

God has all the attributes I mentioned which were passed on to us.

I DID SAY THAT IN US THEY ARE NOT PERFECT.

In God they are perfect.

P.S. I just saw your post no. 83
I leave you to Ozspen.
But we are to become MORE PERFECT by following Jesus as disciples.

 

[brakelite]

BL,,,,this is a known fact.
I'm not going to debate it.

God has all the attributes I mentioned which were passed on to us.

I agree they were passed on to Adam and Eve, but even then, they turned against him and each other. That image was marred... Not beyond recognition, but soiled certainly to the extent that no reformation could restore it... Not without burial and rebirth.

 

[brakelite]

‭The heart ‭is‭ deceitful above all ‭things‭, and desperately wicked: who can know it?‭

 

[brakelite]

BL,,,,this is a known fact.
I'm not going to debate it.

What makes you right?

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree they were passed on to Adam and Eve, but even then, they turned against him and each other. That image was marred... Not beyond recognition, but soiled certainly to the extent that no reformation could restore it... Not without burial and rebirth.

Of course the image was marred.
ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.

But what do YOU think it means that we were made in God's image??

 

[GodsGrace]

What makes you right?

Well Sir...
In some cases I'm 100% sure that I'm right.
How?
Because I know for sure.
That's all I'll say.

We were made in God's image.
HIS IMAGE...not like God which would mean that we're like Him.

He gave us some of HIS attributes:

Which ones do you NOT agree that God has?:

God is love.
Do we not desire and need love?

God has a family---us, and beginning with Adam and Eve He desired to create this family...later on propogated by Abraham.
Do we not have families?

Sociality. (is that a new word?!)
God is a social God. He keeps Himself involved in our lives,,,in the highest of His creation...We humans.
Do we not desire to have friends?
Do you have a beer every now and then with a friend? Or coffee?
Are we not social beings?

God is a moral God.
Don't we know about morals? And as Christians we know about ABSOLUTE morals. Don't you WISH we were all more moral and have a better society?

There's more but I think that's enough.
Creation comes to mind...but the above is enough.

This is accepted theology.
Is water wet?

 

[GodsGrace]

What makes you right?

Theology makes me correct.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

My own belief, not a popular one in my experience is that they are bound to their parents and live or die accordingly.

I would not agree with this myself, Ezekiel 18:19-20

To those would say God would not do that they should consider the fate of the infants and small children of Amalek when they were are killed along with all of the adults by the forces of King Saul in accord with the will of God... a God who is no respecter of persons and a God who never changes.

I have always heard that the worse thing about sin is it can cause a person to be lost. The second worse thing about sin is it can cause innocent people to be hurt. In the case you cited, the children suffered for the consequence of their parents wickedness but would not inherit their parents wickedness.

In the mind of the non-religious person, God having children killed makes God bad. Yet God foreknows things men do not. It could be if God did not kill the Amalekites those children would have grown up to be just as wicked, or even more wicked than their parents, and be eternally lost.

God may have foreknown if the children were left alive there would be no one to take care of them. And those children, being innocent before God, the best thing for them was to die. For the Bible does speak of death as being a good thing for those that will be saved (Psalms 116:15; Philippians 1:21). As for those Amalekite children, Isaiah explains what happens to those who will be saved after they die..."The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness." Those children were taken away from evil to come, they have entered into peace and resting in their beds. I could not imagine anything better for them than what they have now.

 

[amadeus]

I would not agree with this myself, Ezekiel 18:19-20

In my understanding and belief I have considered those verses also. To me they are speaking of sons who are already old enough and able in their own minds and hearts to decide the right way or the wrong way. For young children not yet accountable on their own consider Achan and his punishment here:

And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.
And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.
And they raised over him a great heap of stones unto this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Wherefore the name of that place was called, The valley of Achor, unto this day." Joshua 7:24-26

Only Achan had broken the law, but along with him, his sons and daughters were also stoned to death as I read it.

I have always heard that the worse thing about sin is it can cause a person to be lost. The second worse thing about sin is it can cause innocent people to be hurt. In the case you cited, the children suffered for the consequence of their parents wickedness but would not inherit their parents wickedness.

I don't believe children inherit their parents' wickedness, but by proximity and obedience and imitation it is not unusual for them to effectively follow in the footsteps of a wick parent. This is why Solomon admonishes us with these words:

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

The admonishment is truth, but how "good" do even the best of natural parents train their children in the Way of God? If they were flawless parents always providing the best teaching and examples before their children their children would stand where their parents were. They sometimes do not because the parents, even the best of Christian [real followers of Jesus] parents, make some serious mistakes and sometimes the cost to the child is very great indeed.

In the mind of the non-religious person, God having children killed makes God bad. Yet God foreknows things men do not. It could be if God did not kill the Amalekites those children would have grown up to be just as wicked, or even more wicked than their parents, and be eternally lost.

I essentially agree! People often simply do not understand the mind of God in such a situation. Of course, I only believe in death... no eternal torment for those who dies physically without the Life God held out to them. This is why I put the very young children together with their parents for good or for bad. Physical death when it is the end of everything is not such a bad thing at all.

God may have foreknown if the children were left alive there would be no one to take care of them. And those children, being innocent before God, the best thing for them was to die. For the Bible does speak of death as being a good thing for those that will be saved (Psalms 116:15; Philippians 1:21). As for those Amalekite children, Isaiah explains what happens to those who will be saved after they die..."The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness." Those children were taken away from evil to come, they have entered into peace and resting in their beds. I could not imagine anything better for them than what they have now.

Very good! We again essentially seem to agree.

 

[atpollard]

That doesn't answer my question of meaning of ALL drawn to Jesus when he was lifted up?

Yes it does.
Jesus SAID that IF He was lifted up, THEN “I will draw all men”.
Jesus does not lie.
Jesus WAS lifted up, therefore Jesus DID “draw all men”.

So what actually happened?

• Was every person in the world without exception drawn to Jesus?
• Were some “men from everytribe and tongue and people and nation” [Rev 5:9] drawn?
• Did something else happen?

What actually happened ... that is what Jesus meant ... when He predicted what would happen.
It isn’t that hard of a concept to grasp.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Sorry. I have read and reread your statements here and cannot tell what you are trying to say. Perhaps you can break it down a little more. Give me a single sentence of what you have said.

Stranger

Okay, ready to answer I think. Although it takes more than a sentence as you requested. He sets before us (all men) blessing or cursing. Choose today which you will serve? Doubtfully I could ask any person alive “do you want the blessing or the cursing?” Would it take long for men to gather the blessing greedily to their bosom saying “I’ll take blessing for myself.” A good “portion” of blessing, God. Eager. Paul warned of this 1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
The reason for the quote in the earlier post: it is better to give than to receive. what if God never meant He set before us blessing or cursing to obtain for self but in seeking for “blessing” or “cursing” for another in charity seeks for another’s wealth, in application. In obeying His voice.

Galatians 3:13
[13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

You see...He said “give Me the cup” so they can live. Mark 14:36
[36] And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

What is a quickened (life-giving) Spirit? Ah...good riddance of them. Or Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

 

[Stranger]

Okay, ready to answer I think. Although it takes more than a sentence as you requested. He sets before us (all men) blessing or cursing. Choose today which you will serve? Doubtfully I could ask any person alive “do you want the blessing or the cursing?” Would it take long for men to gather the blessing greedily to their bosom saying “I’ll take blessing for myself.” A good “portion” of blessing, God. Eager. Paul warned of this 1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
The reason for the quote in the earlier post: it is better to give than to receive. what if God never meant He set before us blessing or cursing to obtain for self but in seeking for “blessing” or “cursing” for another in charity seeks for another’s wealth, in application. In obeying His voice.

Galatians 3:13
[13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

You see...He said “give Me the cup” so they can live. Mark 14:36
[36] And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

What is a quickened (life-giving) Spirit? Ah...good riddance of them. Or Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

I believe all that you have said is fine. I just don't see how it applies to what has been said of vessels of honor and dishonor.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I believe all that you have said is fine. I just don't see how it applies to what has been said of vessels of honor and dishonor.

Stranger

The initial response was regarding the few post prior to it. It is like a delayed response to something that has already moved on and the comment no longer applies. You are right ...it doesn’t fit. Mainly was responding to our actions, the words we say and speak and claim...There are only two vessels, yeah? Vessels fitted for destruction(wrath) which bring dishonour to father and mother. Vessels of Mercy which bring Honour and Glory to the Father and the Mother New Jerusalem. Honour how so? Dishonour to father and mother, how so?

Ephesians 6:2
[2] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)