Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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farouk

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Well, this is the idea.
There is some mystery here...
Maybe the Holy Spirit stays with a child UNTIL that child decides not to follow God.

Your longer post is interesting, but must leave for a while.
Later.
I think it's more the influence of the Scriptures and prayer that may stay with a child for possible later blessing, rather than whether s/he has been sprinkled as an infant.
 
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Taken

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That's the point...
What DOES it mean to be baptized?
Why did Jesus make such a point of this IF it's only a symbol?

Something to think about...
I don't have the whole answer either.

Water Baptism is something MEN CAN OBSERVE...
NO ONE SEES a man receiving a restored soul.
NO ONE SEES a man receiving a new heart, Gods Seed, a reborn spirit.

The big picture is....the nature of mankind is SEEING IS Believing. Men can attach the observance of Water Baptism to whatever they want....drowning in death, raised to life...joining the Church...Holy Spirit Baptism....blah, blah.

Water Baptism is a scheduled ceremony....for men to SEE as "witnesses" that that person has become saved and born again.

The Literal (Baptism of the Holy Spirit), when ONE receiving the Spirit of God WITHIN the person and the rebirth and receiving of Salvation happens PRYOR to the ceremony staged for men to SEE.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

BreadOfLife

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Your 'great Pope' is definitely no Elisha...
"And he [Namaan] returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant. But he [Elisha] said, As the LORD liveth, before whom I stand, I will receive none. And he urged him to take it; but he refused." (2Ki 5:15-16)

And you call the Koran, that antichrist pile of writings a gift? Good grief.
Are you really that dense??

Elisha turned down a PAYMENT for healing Naaman. He didn’t accept the gift/payment because it was GOD who healed Naaman – not Elisha.

John Paul II simply received a gift from a from an Islamic leader that he met with.

Apples and oranges . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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There was absolutely no change of heart when I was water baptized. Rather something akin to this happened before...
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
(Eph 2:1-5)

and this...

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
(2Co 5:17)

Sorry, my walk does not line up with your theory of water baptism.
It's not "my theory". - it's what CHRIST prescribed.

CHRIST said that we are born again of WATER and Spirit (John 3:5). We are not born again of just water and He made NO provision of being born again from just the Spirit.
The water is OUR participationOUR obedience in the process.

Without it – you’re NOT born again.
 
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BreadOfLife

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And funny too how people can think ignorance is invincible when we can see from the lives of the saints, it's not, not really.

I think the claim that the Church is invincible shows more faith in the Power of God.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

812 Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."
This is hilarious.

In your ignorance, you’ve used the Catechism in a desperate attempt to debunk . . . the CATECHISM.
Complete nonsense.

Paragraphs 847 and 848 regarding Invincible Ignorance go HAND-IN-HAND with this paragraph (3) that you presented.
They're not at odds with each other.
 

BreadOfLife

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LOL ~ Still teaching that JEWISH VAIL hangs between a Gentile and Salvation....

Because you lack truth and understanding you have to twist the truth into a lie.

LOL ~ Still teaching your hocus pocus made up Catholic Doctine.

1 Cor 2:
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Wisdom of men...LOL
"Initial grace"....
"Initial salvation"...
"Final sanctification"...

Gods Grace is His unmerited favor in the form of a Gift, that men may or may not accept.

Any nitwit should know there is a LEARNING PROCESS to Learn ABOUT God ABOUT the Lord....which is called being enlightened...LEARNING THE TRUTH ABOUT God, WHO IS LIGHT!

And after TASTING THE TRUTH of thee Lord God....THEN a man is prepared to make a Decision/Choice/ELECTION...to CHOOSE thee Lord God....or NOT.

I suppose you are one of those people WHO makes Choices and Agreements WITHOUT a CLUE what you are Agreeing to....eh? LOL

It is not while you are LEARNING ABOUT something that you AGREE TO IT Dunce...

Ever agree to buy a home or land or vehicle or get a bank loan...? And what? Did you read the Contract and become enlightened to what you were agreeing to and obligating yourself to? Some of those types of Contracts can be about 2 inches thick....I would presume you let someone else read it for you and tell you in their words what they think it says....

Making an Agreement with the Lord is NOT a drawn out process Dunce.
Salvation is a GIFT offered by and from the Lord and Given by and from the Lord to A MAN, the moment a man Confesses heartfelt belief IN God and IN Jesus.

Well, there IS ONE EXCEPTION....SALVATION of the Lord is NOT Given to ANY MAN who REJECTS BELIEF IN Jesus, the Lord.

Oh, my...It seems you are utterly unaware...
WHO believes IN God....but NOT Jesus!

Oh, my...It seems you are utterly unaware...Jesus came SEEKING the Jews, who were drifting away FROM God.

Oh, my...It seems you are utterly unaware...Not only was Jesus intent in bringing the Jews BACK into the FOLD of God, but ALSO teaching THEM....ABOUT His GIFT of SALVATION "offered" to them....RIGHT THEN!

Oh, my....It seems you are utterly unaware...
JEWS, believing IN God, but NOT Jesus, REMAIN UNDER THEIR LAW....and RECEIVE their SALVATION at the END of their NATURAL LIFE...."IF" they have LIVED their Life..."ACCORDING TO THE LAW, they chose to BE UNDER" !

You use Scripture of Jewish Men teaching Jewish Men that Salvation has come AMONG THEM...(not you, not Gentiles)... JEWS teaching Jews, in Jewish temples, town, cities....reciting familiar Jewish Laws and teaching about Jesus and His Offering.

Then you APPLY to yourself....what you call in your hokey words...."final salvation"...after having "endured to the end"... LOL

THAT applies to a JEW who believes IN God, and NOT In Jesus.....and DUH....who DID not receive the Gift of Salvation.....since DUH...they don't believe in Jesus the Lord.

THEIR ENDURANCE....is by their OWN power to Follow the Law to the end of their lives..... without the POWER of God "IN THEM"....

And that APPLIES to YOU...eh...a Gentile? LOL

And you saying men who lie to other men are committing a sin....or men who call other men names are committing a sin....LOL...

ACCORDING TO WHAT? Jewish Law...

LOL.

Your understanding is whack.

Glory to God,
Taken
As usual – your response is not only long and psychotic – is completely impotent and ignorant.

The following verses assure us that you can be born again – and later turn away from God and LOSE your “secure” position - 1 Cor. 9:27, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-28, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Matt. 15:13, Matt. 24:13, Rev. 22:19.

STUDY YOUR BIBLE . . .
 
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Giuliano

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This is hilarious.

In your ignorance, you’ve used the Catechism in a desperate attempt to debunk . . . the CATECHISM.
Complete nonsense.

Paragraphs 847 and 848 regarding Invincible Ignorance go HAND-IN-HAND with this paragraph (3) that you presented.
They're not at odds with each other.
I see, you think both non-catholics and Catholics are invincible. Okay.
 

BreadOfLife

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I see, you think both non-catholics and Catholics are invincible. Okay.
No – YOU just don’t know how to read . . .

It’s not the PERSON who is invincible.
It’s the IGNORANCE that must be invincible for a person to fall into this category.

It’s really NOT that difficult to understand – for most people, that is . . .
 

Giuliano

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No – YOU just don’t know how to read . . .

It’s not the PERSON who is invincible.
It’s the IGNORANCE that must be invincible for a person to fall into this category.

It’s really NOT that difficult to understand – for most people, that is . . .
I must admit I still don't understand it. If my ignorance is invincible, that would mean the Catholic Church can't beat it or me.
 

BreadOfLife

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I must admit I still don't understand it. If my ignorance is invincible, that would mean the Catholic Church can't beat it or me.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but since you’re on this site – I’m assuming that you’re an adult.

I’ve explained this to grade school children who were able to grasp this concept FAR quicker than it has taken to explain it to you – but here goes again . . .

Invincible Ignorance refers to the IGNORANCE of Christ and His Church that a person has – NOT the person himself.. NOT every person was raised Catholic. NOT every person has been exposed to Catholic teaching. There are some people who never heard the Gospel, period.

THESE are some of the people who may fall into the category of invincible ignorance.

HOWEVER, if you had bothered to read paragraphs 847 & 848 of the Catechism – you would see that there is a caveat:

The person must ALSO: “… nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience.”

Invincible Ignorance is NOT about the Church not being able to “conquer” anything.
It’s about the level of knowledge that a person has regarding Christ and His Church.

Did that finally sink in – or should I get one of my 6th grade student to explain it?
 

epostle

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I must admit I still don't understand it. If my ignorance is invincible, that would mean the Catholic Church can't beat it or me.
In moral theology, ignorance is defined as a lack of knowledge that a person ought to have. Ignorance is distinguished from mere nescience, which is a lack of knowledge that a person has no need of. For example, a person who did not know the square root of 1429 would be ignorant of it if he were taking a test that required him to know the answer, but he would be nescient of it if performing a task that didn't require the number.

Moral theology divides ignorance into a number of categories. The two I will consider here are invincible and vincible. Ignorance is invincible if a person could not remove it by applying reasonable diligence in determining the answer. Ignorance is vincible if a person could remove it by applying reasonable diligence. Reasonable diligence, in turn, is that diligence that a conscientious person would display in seeking the correct answer to a question given
(a) the gravity of the question and
(b) his particular resources.


The gravity of a question is determined by how great a need the person has to know the answer. The answers to fundamental questions (how to save one's soul, how to preserve one's life) have grave weight. The answers to minor questions (the solution to a crossword puzzle) typically have light weight.

The particular resources a person has include
(a) the ease with which he can obtain the information necessary to determine the answer (e.g., a man with a good textbook on the subject may be able to find the information with greater ease than a man who lacks such a textbook) and (b) the ease with which he can make an accurate evaluation of the evidence once it is in his possession (e.g., a smart man may be able to evaluate the evidence with greater ease than an ordinary man).

The graver the question and the greater the resources available, the more diligence is needed to qualify as reasonable. The lighter the question and the fewer the resources available, the less diligence is needed to qualify as reasonable.

Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/justification-salvation/invincible-ignorance-by-james-akin/
 
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Philip James

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The particular resources a person has include (a) the ease with which he can obtain the information necessary to determine the answer (e.g., a man with a good textbook on the subject may be able to find the information with greater ease than a man who lacks such a textbook) and (b) the ease with which he can make an accurate evaluation of the evidence once it is in his possession


The more that we have been given, the more is expected of us...

Peace be with you!
 
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epostle

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read paragraphs 847 & 848 of the Catechism – you would see that there is a caveat:
The person must ALSO: “… nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their *conscience*.”
The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Moral conscience
 
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prism

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Are you really that dense??

Elisha turned down a PAYMENT for healing Naaman. He didn’t accept the gift/payment because it was GOD who healed Naaman – not Elisha.

John Paul II simply received a gift from a from an Islamic leader that he met with.

Apples and oranges . . .

It's not "my theory". - it's what CHRIST prescribed.

CHRIST said that we are born again of WATER and Spirit (John 3:5). We are not born again of just water and He made NO provision of being born again from just the Spirit.
The water is OUR participationOUR obedience in the process.

Without it – you’re NOT born again.
Again...

Matthew 15:14 (KJV) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
 

Giuliano

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In moral theology, ignorance is defined as a lack of knowledge that a person ought to have. Ignorance is distinguished from mere nescience, which is a lack of knowledge that a person has no need of. For example, a person who did not know the square root of 1429 would be ignorant of it if he were taking a test that required him to know the answer, but he would be nescient of it if performing a task that didn't require the number.

Moral theology divides ignorance into a number of categories. The two I will consider here are invincible and vincible. Ignorance is invincible if a person could not remove it by applying reasonable diligence in determining the answer. Ignorance is vincible if a person could remove it by applying reasonable diligence. Reasonable diligence, in turn, is that diligence that a conscientious person would display in seeking the correct answer to a question given
(a) the gravity of the question and
(b) his particular resources.

That explains some things, and I thank you for it. I remain somewhat confused by something written earlier in this thread. Would you say that "most Protestants" fall into the "invincible ignorance" category? That was stated earlier in Post 515.

Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?
 

Giuliano

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The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Moral conscience
While I'm not a Catholic, I see this continuing education of the conscience a very good thing; and someone who has a good priest can get a lot of help in doing it during Confession. It can be too easy to let some things ride without giving our consciences more scrutiny if we try to do it by ourselves.
 
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prism

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Great question – here is the answer . . .

Scripture tells us that the ENTIRE households of Cornelius, Stephanas and the Philippian Jailer (Acts 10, Acts 16, and 1 Corinthians 1) were Baptized.

Entire households contained people of ALL ages – young, middle-aged, old – and, yes, even BABIES.
It was very common in first century culture to have multi-generational households. That is to say, parents, children, grandparents, etc.

The UNANIMOUS consensus of the Early Church wirings is that the Baptism of infants was an APOSTOLIC teaching that had been handed down to them.

Irenaeus
"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus
"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen
"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Gregory of Nazianz
"Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood.

Augustine
"The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).
Like I pointed out earlier, a neihborhood of baptized devils refutes your theory and the 'Church Fathers' you attempt to exalt.
Believe and be baptized is the command. The same holds true for 'households'. You bring infants to be baptized assuming they believe, thus nullifying the command 'believe and be baptized'.
 

Giuliano

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but since you’re on this site – I’m assuming that you’re an adult.

I’ve explained this to grade school children who were able to grasp this concept FAR quicker than it has taken to explain it to you – but here goes again . . .

Invincible Ignorance refers to the IGNORANCE of Christ and His Church that a person has – NOT the person himself.. NOT every person was raised Catholic. NOT every person has been exposed to Catholic teaching. There are some people who never heard the Gospel, period.
Ignorance does not exist in a vacuum. People can know or not know. You can't separate knowing or not knowing from people. If I have knowledge, it means I know something. If I have ignorance, it means I don't know and am ignorant. That seems logical to me.

are some of the people who may fall into the category of invincible ignorance.

HOWEVER, if you had bothered to read paragraphs 847 & 848 of the Catechism – you would see that there is a caveat:

The person must ALSO: “… nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience.”

Invincible Ignorance is NOT about the Church not being able to “conquer” anything.
Why call it invincible then?
It’s about the level of knowledge that a person has regarding Christ and His Church.
That could be corrected in many cases by education if the person was willing. If he was unwilling, I'd call that willful ignorance.

Did that finally sink in – or should I get one of my 6th grade student to explain it?
Your explanation did not help at all. Maybe a child could explain it better.
 

BreadOfLife

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Again...

Matthew 15:14 (KJV) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
And YOUR problem is context.

The “ignorance” of the Pharisees that Jesus was referring to was an ignorance that they CHOSE – not one of circumstance. Some people reject God and choose not to be knowledgeable of Him.

If you don’t understand the context of what is being spoken of in Scripture – you will LOSE the entire point.

This is why we have tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim that they got it “right out of the Bible” . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Like I pointed out earlier, a neihborhood of baptized devils refutes your theory and the 'Church Fathers' you attempt to exalt.
Believe and be baptized is the command. The same holds true for 'households'. You bring infants to be baptized assuming they believe, thus nullifying the command 'believe and be baptized'.
Wrong.

Paul compares Baptism in the New Covenant with Circumcision in the Old Covenant. When infants were circumcised in the Old Covenant, it was done so by the faith of their parents to raise the child in accordance with the Laws of the Jewish faith.

Likewise, the Catholic Church teaches that infant Baptism in the New Covenant is done so by the faith of the parents to raise the child according to the Church.

NOWHERE in the New Testament does it say that ONLY those of a certain age or consent can be baptized. On the day of Pentecost, Peter spoke to the crowds and said:

Acts 2:39
For the promise is for you and for your children
and for all who are far off, EVERYONE whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”


Paul uses the terms, “circumcision of the heart” and the “circumcision of Christ” (Romans 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe the reality of circumcision being a spiritually inward act, not merely an outward sign. The Old Testament type that WAS circumcision is NOW baptism. And, whereas, circumcision was only applied to male Jews – baptism applies to ALL in the Christian family.
 
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