mormons exposed.

[aspen]

I think we need to remember that emphasis on certain doctrines in the early church may not be as important to us now. They are still part of the truth, but we are obsessed with our own pet doctrines today. For example; the early churches obsession with purity - the Virgin Mary must be valued for her virginity because she gave birth to the perfect man-God. She was described as Theotokos, Christ bearer and Ark of the New Covenant. It was so important that people taught she was immaculately conceived. Yeah, it was a bigger deal back than than it is today, but still truth.

Today, we are totally and radically obsessed with literalism and dualism - it’s it material? Can we quantify it? Did it really happen? Let’s lose ourselves in exegesis! Every word must be mined and dissected!

Anything to occupy our time so we can avoid the simple gospel - learning and practicing with the Holy Spirit, to love perfectly. Instead of just loving outwardly, we quibble, argue, go to war, and incorporate the gospel until it becomes an industry and we can use it to compete with others rather than love them.

In any case, I think understanding the ancient world explains why a writer like Paul used hyperbole and emphasized faith over works and provided quirky information to specific churches like, women covering their heads and shutting their mouths in church.

I think this is where literalism can lead us astray

 

[amadeus]

If they are believing in a false jesus christ, and the logical thinking pattern helps them to put there faith in the true Jesus Christ of holy scripture, then it will indeed make the difference.

Again, 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 is key.

God gave man logic too, but I do not believe it is given to us to determine the final and correct answer on every point on the things of God. That is NOT the Way to God.

I have seen errors in Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Methodists, and so forth, but I don't give merits or demerits to each person or group to decide who is the most right or the most wrong. I am not qualified to do that. I don't believe that you are either. The false Jesus is the one people like Ananias and Saphira were following when they lied to the Holy Spirit. The Mormons don't have a monopoly on them. There are some I am certain in just about every group calling themselves Christian.

I simply trust God and try to always be led by Him step by step toward Him... so that my vision may continue to improve as He gives any increase. The strait and narrow way versus the wide way will NOT be determined strictly by logic nor by denominational lines and certainly not by either you or me. Either a person's vision of Jesus is getting clearer or it is not. Being a Mormon or any the others specified does not mean a thing to God so long as the person's heart is right. If it is then he is seeing the right Jesus even if still somewhat blurred... There is always room for improvement... in every one of us.

 

[justbyfaith]

LDS Christians also totally believe that Christ was the Only Begotten Son of God before He was born of Mary.

Unbiblical. While He exists throughout eternity, being God, and having ascended to exist outside of time (Psalms 90:2, Isaiah 57:15); He was also begotten in the incarnation.

Luk 1:35, And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Being a Mormon or any the others specified does not mean a thing to God so long as the person's heart is right.

Having a doctrine wrong can indeed have an effect on a person's salvation:

1Ti 4:16, Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

God gave man logic too, but I do not believe it is given to us to determine the final and correct answer on every point on the things of God. That is NOT the Way to God.

Of course, the way to God is through faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood. One must also believe in the Deity of Christ (John 8:24) to be saved. And I am certain that there are also certain other doctrinal positions that the Lord might consider to be essential to salvation; so I would say that it is important that we believe as closely as possible to the testimony found written in the holy scriptures.

 

[amadeus]

@justbyfaith

amadeus said: ↑
God gave man logic too, but I do not believe it is given to us to determine the final and correct answer on every point on the things of God. That is NOT the Way to God.

Of course, the way to God is through faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood. One must also believe in the Deity of Christ (John 8:24) to be saved. And I am certain that there are also certain other doctrinal positions that the Lord might consider to be essential to salvation; so I would say that it is important that we believe as closely as possible to the testimony found written in the holy scriptures.

As to Jesus, while I believe that He is God, I would not write off a person who believes simply what the scriptures say... that He is the Son of God if that is according to their understanding different. Such a judgment is not mine to make.

I think you would find it difficult to point out a single doctrine actually expressed directly or indirectly in the scriptures not covered by Jesus's statement of the two great commandments:

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matt 22"37-39

If a person really in his heart believes these two things and strives to allow God to make them foremost within him, all of the other details will not matter to God... [This includes whatever label the person or others have attached to him.]

Or also look to this verse:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

 

[justbyfaith]

If a person really in his heart believes these two things and strives to allow God to make them foremost within him, all of the other details will not matter to God...

What we believe doctrinally matters to the Lord:

1Ti 4:16, Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Or also look to this verse:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

And the these things spoken of do not include salvation. Jesus in this passage is merely saying not to worry about food, shelter, and clothing or to let such worries get in the way of seeking Him. But salvation is not promised in Matthew 6:33. Because a person may indeed be misguided and be attempting to establish their own righteousness; and in doing so they would not be submitting to the righteousness of the Lord (Romans 10:3).

 

[justbyfaith]

I would not write off a person who believes simply what the scriptures say... that He is the Son of God if that is according to their understanding different. Such a judgment is not mine to make.

The holy scriptures make that judgment quite clearly, however.

 

[amadeus]

@justbyfaith

amadeus said: ↑
If a person really in his heart believes these two things and strives to allow God to make them foremost within him, all of the other details will not matter to God...

What we believe doctrinally matters to the Lord:

1Ti 4:16, Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Yes, it matters to God because He understands only too well how it we come to the point of supporting, or NOT, any given doctrine. All of our choices matter until the end. The people who will make it with Him to the end are those who have that perfect heart toward Him. By this I mean their heart is always correctly directed. This correct direction is shown to each us by the Holy Spirit within us. If we stay our course being led more by the Holy Spirit than by the ways of our flesh and are doing so at our end, Life for us will never end. Different people will be at different point on their course, which will include the support of different doctrines.

Consider that David who was a polygamist at the time of his death was also a "man after God's own heart" and the "apple of His eye" when his course was finished [natural death]. David had not yet run up against the question of too many wives, which was addressed in Genesis and by Jesus. But... David pleased God because he did well with what he had.

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

amadeus said: ↑
Or also look to this verse:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

And the these things spoken of do not include salvation. Jesus in this passage is merely saying not to worry about food, shelter, and clothing or to let such worries get in the way of seeking Him. But salvation is not promised in Matthew 6:33. Because a person may indeed be misguided and be attempting to establish their own righteousness; and in doing so they would not be submitting to the righteousness of the Lord (Romans 10:3). [/quote]
Don't they?

What do we suppose is/was our first love if not that which are to seek first?

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love." Rev 2:4

Seeking salvation first is to me an error in priorities. Salvation should be the purpose or object of our search. That is a selfish motive. Rather salvation is simply a reward for having the right priorities. First seek His kingdom and His rightousness because we love Him. Never mind salvation!

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first." Matt 19:29-30

 

[amadeus]

The holy scriptures make that judgment quite clearly, however.

For you perhaps, but certainly not for me and apparently not for some others here. You may say we are wrong, but would it not leave the judgment to God rather than argue about something is not an duty assigned to you by God?

 

[justbyfaith]

For you perhaps, but certainly not for me and apparently not for some others here. You may say we are wrong, but would it not leave the judgment to God rather than argue about something is not an duty assigned to you by God?

You are wrong; because the holy scriptures are clear on the matter. The judgment of the Lord will be according to the holy scriptures, John 12:48..

Those who do not want to believe that Jesus is the Lord (God), do twist the scriptures to make them fit the pattern of saying what they want them to say, to their own destruction. See 2 Peter 3:16. They will die in their sins if they persist in their unbelief.

 

[justbyfaith]

@justbyfaith


Yes, it matters to God because He understands only too well how it we come to the point of supporting, or NOT, any given doctrine. All of our choices matter until the end. The people who will make it with Him to the end are those who have that perfect heart toward Him. By this I mean their heart is always correctly directed. This correct direction is shown to each us by the Holy Spirit within us. If we stay our course being led more by the Holy Spirit than by the ways of our flesh and are doing so at our end, Life for us will never end. Different people will be at different point on their course, which will include the support of different doctrines.

Consider that David who was a polygamist at the time of his death was also a "man after God's own heart" and the "apple of His eye" when his course was finished [natural death]. David had not yet run up against the question of too many wives, which was addressed in Genesis and by Jesus. But... David pleased God because he did well with what he had.

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23



And the these things spoken of do not include salvation. Jesus in this passage is merely saying not to worry about food, shelter, and clothing or to let such worries get in the way of seeking Him. But salvation is not promised in Matthew 6:33. Because a person may indeed be misguided and be attempting to establish their own righteousness; and in doing so they would not be submitting to the righteousness of the Lord (Romans 10:3).
Don't they?

What do we suppose is/was our first love if not that which are to seek first?

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love." Rev 2:4

Seeking salvation first is to me an error in priorities. Salvation should be the purpose or object of our search. That is a selfish motive. Rather salvation is simply a reward for having the right priorities. First seek His kingdom and His rightousness because we love Him. Never mind salvation!

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first." Matt 19:29-30

I have not said that in order to go to heaven, one must in the present moment have a correct understanding of doctrine. Of course, if they die with any kind of deliberate incorrect understanding concerning any of the essentials, they will die in their sins.

If they believe something because they have not yet come across the scripture that contradicts that pov; well, I do believe that if they love the Lord as He truly is, they are known of Him; and will very likely be brought through the fire into the kingdom.

 

[amadeus]

You are wrong; because the holy scriptures are clear on the matter. The judgment of the Lord will be according to the holy scriptures, John 12:48..

We do disagree...

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48

He speaks of His words which are the living Word. The words written on the pages of a Bible only have Life when and if they have been brought to Life within a person by the Holy Spirit in that person. If it were otherwise, then would we OK with a secular judge in a secular courtroom making binding judgments on people based on what is written in scripture? I would think not. When a believer is not at the moment walking in the Spirit, his judgment even citing the scriptures would be flawed and also usually, if not always, in error.

Those who do not want to believe that Jesus is the Lord (God), do twist the scriptures to make them fit the pattern of saying what they want them to say, to their own destruction. See 2 Peter 3:16. They will die in their sins if they persist in their unbelief.

What you have said here applies to you and to me any time we are not walking in the Spirit and making judgments against other people. Then it would be you or me twisting the scriptures based on our own logical conclusions instead according to the leading of the Holy Spirit:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

We cannot even "walk" through the written scriptures correctly unless God is leading us.

"O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!" Psalm 119:5

Help us dear Lord!

 

[amadeus]

I have not said that in order to go to heaven, one must in the present moment have a correct understanding of doctrine. Of course, if they die with any kind of deliberate incorrect understanding concerning any of the essentials, they will die in their sins.

If they believe something because they have not yet come across the scripture that contradicts that pov; well, I do believe that if they love the Lord as He truly is, they are known of Him; and will very likely be brought through the fire into the kingdom.

I like this statement of yours much better than others you have made. Why not give everyone the benefit of a doubt, considering that perhaps when they seem to be in error, they may not be there deliberately. [Of course, there is also the possibility, is there not, that you are sometimes in error?] Best choice of course is withhold judgment until the truth is known. What do we really know of another person's heart based on his denomination?

 

[justbyfaith]

I like this statement of yours much better than others you have made. Why not give everyone the benefit of a doubt, considering that perhaps when they seem to be in error, they may not be there deliberately. [Of course, there is also the possibility, is there not, that you are sometimes in error?] Best choice of course is withhold judgment until the truth is known. What do we really know of another person's heart based on his denomination?

I do believe that there are those who reject the testimony of holy scripture because of the hardness of their hearts. Others believe falsely because they have not yet come across the holy scripture that refutes their thinking. The first class of people is in rebellion against the Lord. I believe that there is grace for the 2nd class of people. Of course Jesus is their final judge. I believe that the word of the Lord, as it is written in the Bible, will be the judge of all men on that final day. It stands as a written testimony that will be the judge of men, especially if it has not made its way into their hearts.

 

[amadeus]

I do believe that there are those who reject the testimony of holy scripture because of the hardness of their hearts. Others believe falsely because they have not yet come across the holy scripture that refutes their thinking. The first class of people is in rebellion against the Lord. I believe that there is grace for the 2nd class of people. Of course Jesus is their final judge. I believe that the word of the Lord, as it is written in the Bible, will be the judge of all men on that final day. It stands as a written testimony that will be the judge of men, especially if it has not made its way into their hearts.

While I understand your thinking on this, that can never tell the whole story for every person. Sometimes God puts us in a place purposely even though the officially accepted doctrines are in serious error.

My last place had some good things involved but I knew that eventually I needed to be out of there. But for several years because of the needs of my pastor, God required me to stay. Stay I did until they working out of God's order removed him. Then it was also my time to go.

When you look at where a person is [denomination or church group] also look at why God may want them to be there. Also always consider your own place in God. None of us necessarily have everything right. When we don't, we quite often do not realize it ourselves. For this reason also I believe God has told us to leave the judgments to Him. He always knows the whole story and he knows always exactly what is needed. Yes, He may use you in this area, but be certain that He wants to use you in such a way before inserting yourself into the situation. That is my advice for what it is worth.

 

[Heart2Soul]

While I understand your thinking on this, that can never tell the whole story for every person. Sometimes God puts us in a place purposely even though the officially accepted doctrines are in serious error.

My last place had some good things involved but I knew that eventually I needed to be out of there. But for several years because of the needs of my pastor, God required me to stay. Stay I did until they working out of God's order removed him. Then it was also my time to go.

When you look at where a person is [denomination or church group] also look at why God may want them to be there. Also always consider your own place in God. None of us necessarily have everything right. When we don't, we quite often do not realize it ourselves. For this reason also I believe God has told us to leave the judgments to Him. He always knows the whole story and he knows always exactly what is needed. Yes, He may use you in this area, but be certain that He wants to use you in such a way before inserting yourself into the situation. That is my advice for what it is worth.

I have an aunt who is LDS and I have talked with her extensively about her faith. I know she believes is Jesus as the son of God, salvation comes through Him, baptism of water and Holy Spirit....all the basic foundations of Christianity. They are strict and somewhat leaning towards legalism.
They are very structured in their church fellowship.
Our only disagreement is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon....

 

[farouk]

I have an aunt who is LDS and I have talked with her extensively about her faith. I know she believes is Jesus as the son of God, salvation comes through Him, baptism of water and Holy Spirit....all the basic foundations of Christianity. They are strict and somewhat leaning towards legalism.
They are very structured in their church fellowship.
Our only disagreement is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon....

I wouldn't agree with baptismal regeneration; like the Lord's Supper baptism is a symbol, but important.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I wouldn't agree with baptismal regeneration; like the Lord's Supper baptism is a symbol, but important.

I don't agree with LDS doctrines but I do love their focus on family values.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I wouldn't agree with baptismal regeneration; like the Lord's Supper baptism is a symbol, but important.

Clarifying the LDS view here:
The act of getting dunked itself doesn't save anyone.
However, a disciple of Christ should indeed be baptized and formally take on His name.

 

[Heart2Soul]

In my days Christians were identified as to their doctrinal beliefs by their denomination....for example Baptist, Methodist, Catholic...etc....now it seems to be categorized as to their belief of how they interpret scripture...example....cessasionists, dispensationalists, amillenials, calvinists....etc.
So when I read in a post someone claiming someone is a cessationists I wonder which denomination that is....I suppose it could be a combination of more than one.
It has become quite difficult for me to understand where a person is coming from concerning what church doctrine they adhere to.
It doesn't really matter that much but I do get confused as to what fundamentalists are or dispensationalists etc.
So I might be agreeing or disagreeing with others ignorantly. Lol.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

In my days Christians were identified as to their doctrinal beliefs by their denomination....for example Baptist, Methodist, Catholic...etc....now it seems to be categorized as to their belief of how they interpret scripture...example....cessasionists, dispensationalists, amillenials, calvinists....etc.
So when I read in a post someone claiming someone is a cessationists I wonder which denomination that is....I suppose it could be a combination of more than one.
It has become quite difficult for me to understand where a person is coming from concerning what church doctrine they adhere to.
It doesn't really matter that much but I do get confused as to what fundamentalists are or dispensationalists etc.
So I might be agreeing or disagreeing with others ignorantly. Lol.

Hence the importance of:
1) Remembering what is most important, and
2) Not looking at labels and instead actually getting to know a person.