Nah. I wasn't implying I thought they had it all together. Just that the statements in the passage should not be read as theoretical statements but rather read literally and historically is all.
No, no. Not that the Bible is purely a history book either. There are plenty of statements that are made which are theoretical in nature rather than historical. I just don't think verses like Romans 6:17, 18 & 22 are theoretical. They're literal.
I have to disagree...this passage, like pretty much everything Paul wrote, is highly theological in nature. It's true, he's not pontificating in general like an intellectual idiot, he IS speaking to an audience, but what he's addressing them about is quite profound and goes beyond just something that could be said to be true just for those particular people. In fact, if we begin saying that there are portions of Paul's work that are specific for only the early Church and not applicable for the whole church...for the Christian body in general, then we suddenly start drawing lines in Paul's work that depend largely upon who we view and interpret it, rather than how he's written it. Because there appears nothing in his passages to directly tell us which theology is directed to them, and which could be applied to all Christians. That distinction would come only from those reading in afterwards.
Nope. I think there are many who want what God has to offer them as long as it will cost them nothing, and they can continue to live however they want to and still be blessed by God. This is implied in the Parable of the Sower, where the seed fell in all the soil, but did not take deep root in some soil and did not overcome the thorns in others. So, too, with many believers today. They want God but they want the world also. So they obey in some things and for a tie, but eventually their obedience comes to an end because they hit a wall they cannot surmount. I see Christians who persistently refuse to obey God all the time, actually.
Just because someone might think it 'grand' to have all the perks but none of the 'down sides', as they might see it, does not mean they were truly born again. In fact, I would argue that it's proof that they
absolutely never 'got' what it meant to be a Christian.
There are plenty who might be keen for 'forgiveness' and 'heaven' and 'spiritual gifts' and a church they could call home. But anyone who refuses to open their hearts to repentance, to others, to pass that forgiveness on, to march towards denial of self because they KNOW that in that is found the joy of God....then these people never really committed, they never had a new heart and were prepared to turn their backs on the world.
Because I love Him. I'm not particularly fearful of Hell at this point because I've walked with Him so long and grown in my relationship with Him to the point where... tell you the truth, I never have been particularly afraid of it. I've always been too close to Him, like from the start. But there are still a great number of things I could be doing to serve Him better, hence my focus on obedience these days.
Do you think your obedience flows out of your love and your relationship with him, or out of a conscious concern that you not 'fall away'. Every Christian I have ever spoken with...or read about, I suppose...most have been either eager for growth, or frustrated by their lack of it...not because of what may happen should growth stop or stagger backwards, but because of what lies in wait for us there! Did you ever read the Narnia books? The very last one; the Last Battle, right at the end, where he is describing his version of heaven, I suppose, where the characters keep saying "further up, further in!" Christ invites us to be in deeper relationship with him, not because we'll be punished without it, but because of the wonders of what we'll find within it.
that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. -Ephesians 3:16–19
Do you feel how rich and full of promise that passage is? Not in a 'strive towards obedience' way, but in a 'run towards joy' sort of way.
Well yes! True Christians, and in this sense I would agree with you. But I believe there are also those who begin with Christ, and I mean truly begin with Christ, but only very superficially. This is not only suggested by the Sower Parable, but by what I've seen in real life. They are excited for awhile, going to church, trying to depart from sin etc., but then they eventually lose interest in the things of God and in pursuing them and go back into the world, and end up dying in their sins.
And sometimes, Naomi, I'm tempted to place the blame partly on messages that tell them nothing they can do will separate them from God and their relationship with Him...
I'm hearing scriptures in my head that I'm guessing we are about to have to deal with now, LoL.
Well, yes, and you know those verses well. How can these verses mesh with the understanding of people who 'hear...truly hear and accept and are changed'...but then go away and are choked by life....how does that understanding of the parable of the sower mesh with all the verses that promise
Christ's faithfulness with us...that HE, not the cares of the world, or our faithlessness, or fickleness is what leads us away...?
Because truly, doesn't it make MORE sense to see the parable of the sower as a picture of what we see in scripture already? What about all the 'disciples' Christ lost when his 'sayings' became too hard? What about Paul telling Christians that those who 'went out from us were never of us'? What of people like Simon the magician who see the power of God and long for it, but never really GET it? Just because people see and hear the gospel, and have the cognitive ability to understand to a certain level that there is something there that is good...something there that could change their lives...something there that might lead to transformation and eternal life...does not mean that they have had their hearts actually transformed. It just means they've peered in the window and enjoyed the look of the fire. But life, selfishness, grief, hatred, sin...all the things of the world, can tear them away from the window. The big difference between them and real Christians is...we're on the inside being warmed by the fire. Therefore when the hardships of the world come to us, we're viewing them through the window, sure, but from the inside, from in front of the fire. And we see all by the fire's light and will always be drawn back to the fire.
Now this we fully agree on : ) Where we differ, however, is that you believe such a person could never have believed in Christ (i.e. received He who is the Word made flesh within them) to begin with. I believe that like the soil in the parable, there are many who indeed receive Him within themselves, but eventually they let the things of this world again choke Him out, to where He never bears fruit in their lives.
I believe thus only because I see it promised repeatedly in scripture. And, I see his faithfulness in my own life through every storm and valley or foolish deed done by myself. I know full well it's not my own wisdom or greatness that draws me back to him.