Interpreting Romans 6:23 In Context

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brakelite

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I think the issue of free will is an important ethical consideration when viewing Romans 6. The line between good and evil doesn't cut across the middle ground between myself and my neighbour. It doesn't cut across between Catholic and Protestant...between liberal and conservative...between prisoner and guard. It cuts across the very epicenter of my own heart, and those last verses in Romans 6 tells us that we must choose what side we want to serve...what side we want to yield to. And God does not remove that choice once we come to Him. That line still remains...and although after experiencing the love, mercy, grace, and glorious faithfulness of our infinitely wonderful Saviour, our likelihood of turning our backs upon Him and all He stands for and all He has done for us and remain backsidden is extremely slim, (because Jesus has promised to never forsake us so whatever we do He is going to chase us and keep pleading with us to repent till the day we die...
KJV Ezekiel 33
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?)
so although slim, the nature of love and the imperative of free will being a component of that love demands that such a choice be always possible...The history of israel, and the constant calls to repentance from God's messengers the prophets, to my mind at least is evidence to that.
 
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brakelite

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I think the issue of free will is an important ethical consideration when viewing Romans 6. The line between good and evil doesn't cut across the middle ground between myself and my neighbour. It doesn't cut across between Catholic and Protestant...between liberal and conservative...between prisoner and guard. It cuts across the very epicenter of my own heart, and those last verses in Romans 6 tells us that we must choose what side we want to serve...what side we want to yield to. And God does not remove that choice once we come to Him. That line still remains...and although after experiencing the love, mercy, grace, and glorious faithfulness of our infinitely wonderful Saviour, our likelihood of turning our backs upon Him and all He stands for and all He has done for us and remain backsidden is extremely slim, (because Jesus has promised to never forsake us so whatever we do He is going to chase us and keep pleading with us to repent till the day we die...
KJV Ezekiel 33
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?)
so although slim, the nature of love and the imperative of free will being a component of that love demands that such a choice be always possible...The history of israel, and the constant calls to repentance from God's messengers the prophets, to my mind at least is evidence to that.
Further to that is James's clarion call to backsidden Israel...
KJV James 4
4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Is not an adulterer in this context one who at some time had a good relationship...even marriage...with God but for reasons known only to himself and God, decided the world a preferred partner, making himself an enemy to his former spouse. Now while it is true that
KJV Romans 5
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Paul describes in graphic detail the difference between being at enmity or being an enemy of God and a friend...one who has been reconciled...
KJV Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
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brakelite

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It actually brought to mind Paul's words about wishing he could be dammed if it would bring Israel to salvation, but it's a ridiculous thing to think of forsaking Christ just to prove to others a true Christian can reject God if he wishes. Some would likely then just point to my rejection of Him as proof that I never was actually saved.
I dont think you are suggesting that was Paul's motivation (or Moses' as it happened) for scrubbing his name from the book of life huh, just to prove a point. But you make am interesting observation.
Like Christ, both Paul and Moses were willing to lay down even their own eternal inheritance for others.
KJV Exodus 32
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Note God's response. He didn't say such a thing was impossible...on the contrary, like Jesus said later, it is indeed possible, but He will be just in doing so. What was impossible was Moses or Paul taking upon themselves the sin of another...it is the sinner himself whose name shall be removed unless they repent.

KJV Revelation 3
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Only those who overcome shall remain in the books. This isn't a book of rewards whuch some say we lose when we don't perform to our best. This is the book of life which we will have no part in except we, (and I shall stress this for the sake of some maybe misconstruing what I say)by grace through faith overcome. Again, back to Romans 6.

KJV Romans 6
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This is about surrender, not about legalism and self motivated works based salvation...But it is about forsaking sin...it is about obedience...it is about our willingness to live the life God desires for each and every one of us. And the only way is through yielding...surrendering ourselves to the creative power of the word of God that sanctifies and cleanses us from all sin...

KJV Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
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Naomi25

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Well, again now, Naomi, my problem with this interpretation is that it changes the subjects being addressed in the passage from the Christians living at Rome 2,000 years ago into all Christians who have ever lived throughout history. I don't read the passage as a bunch of theoretical statements about Christians in general, but as spoken with regard specifically to the Christians in Rome at that time. When he said, "but you became obedient to that form of teaching that was delivered to you," he was talking specifically about them, not us. So any "once ... now" time signatures that may appear in the text don't relate to us, they relate only to them.

Certainly we can glean things from the passage or I wouldn't have started the thread, LoL. But assuming the passage is a bunch of theoretical statements about all Christians is IMO misreading the passage : )
Alright....let me ask you this: when Paul is talking about something like..this:

For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:14–18

Do you think that this can only really refer to the Christians then? Do you think we also cannot expect that OUR loved ones asleep in the Lord will be raised also, the we too shall be gathered to him? Of course not, right? This is clear 'theological' information for the whole Church. And it's clearly that because it's about a future that hasn't happened yet.
The problem about pointing at most other NT text and saying it's only particularly relevant for the people back then, is that you strip it all of its theological content, and that is in error. There are times in Paul's writing, as the other books, where they address specific people and events, but in general, Paul is writing to A CHURCH...in other words, to a people of God. And he's writing about theological matters, so that they may be informed about spiritual things. And, as we know God doesn't change, we are therefore free to deduce that what is true for them, is also true for us.


Now this last statement here is where we get into a cruel reality that I think I accept but you reject as being possible with God. The difference between our relationship with God and an earthly father is that He requires us to worship Him as God, and He will have no other gods before Him. Hence a sin like taking the mark of the beast is something He will not overlook either. He is a jealous God, and unlike in the human analogy there are a few things that are paramount to disowning Him. As the scripture says, "If we deny Him, He will deny us." Deny, denounce, and disown are all plausible translations of the word used here in the Greek, and what that means is, He will not simply continue to call His own those who have disowned him before men.

Isn't this funny, because I would have said that yes, there IS a difference between and earthly and heavenly Father....it's the heavenly father that will never let us down.
It's our heavenly Father who sent his Son to rescue us so that we also might be called Sons of God. Yes he is our God, but we also have access to him as our Father, one who Christ is our advocate. And as we know from the verses I keep pointing to, our resting in Christ is secure...on his work, on his love and mercy. It's this love and mercy that will keep drawing us back, not matter how many times we stumble. Our adoption is sure. It's sure because he 'won't lose us but raise us up' (John 6:39-40), will 'bring us to completion' (Phil 1:6), will 'perfect our faith' (Heb 12:2) and 'glorify us after justifying and sanctifying us' (Rom 8:30), the promise of all this sure because those of us who received the Spirit have it as a 'seal of guarantee of the inheritance promised to us'.
When you thread all of those verses together, and then add the ones that speak against works being able to earn us squat...I cannot, simply cannot, see a biblical basis for your argument, I am sorry.

I think the full passage as I quoted it to Charity explains this better. Let me get it and quote it here.

22 And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endures to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into another: for verily I say unto you, You shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell...
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and follow after me, is not worthy of me.

See, I would say that these verses point to characteristics of faithful versus the wicked...a theme we see often throughout scripture. As the faithful we must endure. But...it's not like we don't need encouragement in that. On the flip side...its also not a guarantee that because we're exhorted TO endure, that we will not. In point of fact, I'd say the more encouragement from scripture and the Spirit those of new birth get, the more likely we are to NOT fade in our faith. In fact, I'd argue (and clearly have :p) that there are many, many passages that speak towards a Christian's inability to truly fall away as you suggest, simply because when we look at the base of it all, it's not us holding our salvation together; it never was, it never will be. That is the work of someone more mighty then us.
Likewise, for the rest of this passage, we see a direct contrast between those who 'confess God before men, and those who just don't, and the punishment they receive. But, there is nothing in this passage that demands an understanding that the 'person' being discussed has to be singular and that they had to have started as a person of faith who has wavered and failed. Indeed, Christ is, as he often did in his parables, holding up the 'two types of people' in the world and stressing the worldly 'difficulty' of taking up the cross to follow Christ in this life, but the very real danger to ones eternal soul in the next life to deny him in this one.
 

Hidden In Him

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KJV Revelation 3
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Only those who overcome shall remain in the books. This isn't a book of rewards whuch some say we lose when we don't perform to our best. This is the book of life which we will have no part in except we, (and I shall stress this for the sake of some maybe misconstruing what I say)by grace through faith overcome. Again, back to Romans 6.

KJV Romans 6
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This is about surrender, not about legalism and self motivated works based salvation...But it is about forsaking sin...it is about obedience...it is about our willingness to live the life God desires for each and every one of us. And the only way is through yielding...surrendering ourselves to the creative power of the word of God that sanctifies and cleanses us from all sin...

KJV Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You don't have any arguments from me, LoL.
 

Hidden In Him

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Do you think that this can only really refer to the Christians then? Do you think we also cannot expect that OUR loved ones asleep in the Lord will be raised also, the we too shall be gathered to him? Of course not, right? This is clear 'theological' information for the whole Church. And it's clearly that because it's about a future that hasn't happened yet.
The problem about pointing at most other NT text and saying it's only particularly relevant for the people back then, is that you strip it all of its theological content, and that is in error.

No, no, LoL. I just meant the verses that I specified.
Isn't this funny, because I would have said that yes, there IS a difference between and earthly and heavenly Father....it's the heavenly father that will never let us down.
It's our heavenly Father who sent his Son to rescue us so that we also might be called Sons of God. Yes he is our God, but we also have access to him as our Father, one who Christ is our advocate. And as we know from the verses I keep pointing to, our resting in Christ is secure...on his work, on his love and mercy. It's this love and mercy that will keep drawing us back, not matter how many times we stumble. Our adoption is sure. It's sure because he 'won't lose us but raise us up' (John 6:39-40), will 'bring us to completion' (Phil 1:6), will 'perfect our faith' (Heb 12:2) and 'glorify us after justifying and sanctifying us' (Rom 8:30), the promise of all this sure because those of us who received the Spirit have it as a 'seal of guarantee of the inheritance promised to us'.
When you thread all of those verses together, and then add the ones that speak against works being able to earn us squat...I cannot, simply cannot, see a biblical basis for your argument, I am sorry.

But Namoi, when you make this claim you are essentially saying that Christians can denounce Him and curse Him, proclaiming by these acts that they are totally disassociating themselves from Him and want nothing to do with Him anymore, yet still ascend to be with Him in eternity after they die... It basically turns God into an automaton who is stuck with such people forever whether He likes it or not. :confused: Fast forward to what I told Brakelite in Post #180. I would be curious what your response would be to that one.
 

Hidden In Him

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32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and follow after me, is not worthy of me.

See, I would say that these verses point to characteristics of faithful versus the wicked...

Since we are on this passage then, let me ask you: If unbelievers are those referred to here as not worthy of Christ, and believers are those who are worthy of Christ, what is it in your opinion that makes them worthy of Him? The fact that they put no one before Him, yes? The fact that they take up their crosses and follow Him?
 

marks

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Habitual sinners are slaves to sin.
Or if thou preferest ...
Those who are slaves to sin are habitual sinners.
.
Hi Zachary,

I would say rather that being a "habitual sinner" more describes your behavior patterns, and the neural pathways established that involve sinning.

While "slave to sin" describes your lack of ability to choose outside of your nature, or ability.

The Habitual Sinner may be a slave to sin, or may be simply caught in a behavioral rut. Remember. Not all sins are perceived by us to be the same, however, that irk of impatience that someone feels towards their wife on a sometimes daily basis is habitual sin just the same.

Much love!
 

marks

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If Paul and Timothy were both capable of denying Christ (as Paul's own words suggest),
Hi Hidden In Him,

To me, a suggestion isn't enough for a foundation.

I would think all believers are capable of doing so, and that means that salvation is still in flux in believer's lives until the end. If a man denies Christ and curses Him to His face, how can he still be saved? He is utterly renouncing Him, and proclaiming to the whole world that He is unquestionably NOT God. :confused:

So then reconciliation is not a permanent state, nor is justification. They are contingent upon if we abide in Christ until the end, and not fall away out of fear of men and what they can do to us. This is why it says, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
I understand your argument.

But I ask you, if you compare this passage, which suggests a doctrine to you, with the following, which, to me, makes a very plain statement, then what?

Colossians 3
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Doesn't this tell us that if you actually have been born again, then you will of a certainty appear with Jesus when He appears in glory? Having been hidden in Him?

Much love!
 

marks

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For instance, eating unclean foods represented taking unclean demonic spirits within oneself, and how abhorrent that would be to God.
Hi HIH,

I've never heard this before, can you tell me where is it taught? I had thought that the idea was to make a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles, that distinction being removed as emphasized by Peter's vision.

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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Colossians 3
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Hey, Marks.

This is another case of a text speaking to a group of people who, at the time of writing, were indeed remaining faithful to God. Hence, these verses apply to them as saved individuals. But as I was telling Naomi (in previous posts somewhere, a couple of times I think), when we apply such passages to all believers everywhere at all times throughout history, we run into the problem of assuming these are theoretical statements rather than historical ones.
 

Hidden In Him

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Hi HIH,

I've never heard this before, can you tell me where is it taught?

You just heard where it was taught, LoL : ) There's supporting scripture in some of the things Jesus taught, but it's one of those things that's received by revelation. If you're looking for a flat statement in the NT saying, "Unclean foods represent unclean spirits," it's not there.
I had thought that the idea was to make a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles, that distinction being removed as emphasized by Peter's vision.

It was, but all of Judaic custom and ritual represented something spiritually. The feasts, circumcision, mikveh baths, all of it.
 

marks

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Now this last statement here is where we get into a cruel reality that I think I accept but you reject as being possible with God. The difference between our relationship with God and an earthly father is that He requires us to worship Him as God, and He will have no other gods before Him.
Hi HIH,

I echo your thought, hard to know what to respond to! I've started and deleted half a dozen posts, trying to hold back until I'd read all the rest of the thread. Great stuff everyone!

On this part above, I have a hard time imagining that our bond between human child and parent is somehow greater than our bond between our Heavenly Father and His children.

What you've stated above is indeed, I think, the heart of the matter. In your view, God requires obedience to continue to be accepted. In my view, we already have been, and will continue to be disqualified in our obedience, but God has made the way that does not rest on our obedience.

You've stated that God requires our worship, and I think you mean that without it we will not remain God's children, but that the "new creation" will disappear, and we will revert back to become flesh beings, back to the Adamic Creation.

I question, who has that obedience, sufficient that they should be able to trust in their obedience for their salvation (continued salvation, that is)?

If "Love the Lord your God with all your heart/mind/soul/strenth" is the standard we have to meet, if "Love your neighbor as yourself" is there right alongside, who does those things all the time? Don't we all have these little habitual ways of living that are not of faith, and not of love?

How much worship does He require of us that we remain born from Him? How much obedience? If sin separates us from Him, doesn't that mean any and all sin?

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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On this part above, I have a hard time imagining that our bond between human child and parent is somehow greater than our bond between our Heavenly Father and His children.

Well, the parallel of the bond between child and parent is used, but also the parallel of Christ being King over the coming kingdom of God. And this is where you really see the warnings about denouncing Him become more easy to understand. If a believer denounces Him as God and King, he is essentially becoming a traitor to Him, and making himself unworthy to reign with Christ when He assumes the throne of His kingdom over the earth.
True Christians had to profess Him to be the King of kings and Lord of lords, which is what the Romans forced them to denounce by claiming fealty to the Roman Emperor instead.
 

Hidden In Him

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If "Love the Lord your God with all your heart/mind/soul/strenth" is the standard we have to meet, if "Love your neighbor as yourself" is there right alongside, who does those things all the time? Don't we all have these little habitual ways of living that are not of faith, and not of love?

How much worship does He require of us that we remain born from Him? How much obedience? If sin separates us from Him, doesn't that mean any and all sin?

No, no. Of course not. I'm referring more to especially egregious sins. Taking the mark of the beast, denouncing Him as God before men, blaspheming the Holy Spirit, absolutely refusing to under any circumstances to forgive another, things like that.
 

marks

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Hey, Marks.

This is another case of a text speaking to a group of people who, at the time of writing, were indeed remaining faithful to God. Hence, these verses apply to them as saved individuals. But as I was telling Naomi (in previous posts somewhere, a couple of times I think), when we apply such passages to all believers everywhere at all times throughout history, we run into the problem of assuming these are theoretical statements rather than historical ones.
Hi HIH,

If we continue on . . . here is what God tells these whom you suggest are remaining in sufficient obedience to be told this, they are also told:

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Why do they need to be told to put off anger, and wrath, malice, blasphemy, so on?

You speak in terms of theoretical passages, but I'm not sure what you mean when you say that.

I read this passage, If you are risen with Christ . . . you have died with Christ . . . and you will appear with Christ. This would be one of those conditional classes, if you are . . . born again . . . died and risen with Christ, you will appear with Him, now put to death those parts of the body, these evil things . . .

I would say that in being told to put off the old man and put on the new, that these may be less than Christians in perfect obedience.

Thoughts?

Much love!
 

marks

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You just heard where it was taught, LoL : ) There's supporting scripture in some of the things Jesus taught, but it's one of those things that's received by revelation. If you're looking for a flat statement in the NT saying, "Unclean foods represent unclean spirits," it's not there.
I'll stay with what I read in Leviticus in that case. I prefer what is authorative.

Much love!
 

marks

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@Hidden In Him ,

Truth be told . . @Naomi25 has given so much the same arguments I'd have presented, it's difficult to find much to really add.

I've seen this argument presented before, that passages like this in Colossian, or like in Galatians, I've been co-crucified in Christ, yet I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me . . . , apply only to those who have achieved the level of faith, or faithfulness, or blessedness (for those who say it is bestowed), or like what @Episkopos discribes as his "walking in Zion" as if taken over by the Holy Spirit.

I've posted above my thoughts on the Colossians passage, that in being told to put of the old man, this signifies that it's not addressed just to those who already have.

The Galatians passage, I've been crucifed with Christ, yet I live, that's another way of saying he's been reborn, as Romans 6 tells us that's what happened. Now he lives by the faith of the Son of God, Jesus' faith. It's like the reading of Habakkuk that is brought out in the Septuagint, The just by My faith they live.

This isn't something theoretical, this is a new reality. Jesus' faith now resides in us, and by His faith we live. We have an inheritance reserved in heaven for us, who are kept by the power of God through faith . . . whose faith?

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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Hi HIH,

If we continue on . . . here is what God tells these whom you suggest are remaining in sufficient obedience to be told this, they are also told:

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Why do they need to be told to put off anger, and wrath, malice, blasphemy, so on?

You speak in terms of theoretical passages, but I'm not sure what you mean when you say that.

I read this passage, If you are risen with Christ . . . you have died with Christ . . . and you will appear with Christ. This would be one of those conditional classes, if you are . . . born again . . . died and risen with Christ, you will appear with Him, now put to death those parts of the body, these evil things . . .

I would say that in being told to put off the old man and put on the new, that these may be less than Christians in perfect obedience.

Thoughts?

Certainly, certainly. I'm not talking about sinless perfection. I wonder how many would be saved if that were required, LoL. I think most would give up before even trying : )
I'll stay with what I read in Leviticus in that case. I prefer what is authorative.

Much love!

Okie dokie. Just keep in mind that the vast majority of what the New Testament writers taught was based off interpretation of OT passages and verses, and the Jews rejected those interpretations in the same way you are rejecting mine. My response here would be that wisdom is deemed right by her children. But not a biggie.

Hope you are having a good day. How's the weather in California right now?
 

marks

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Certainly, certainly. I'm not talking about sinless perfection. I wonder how many would be saved if that were required, LoL. I think most would give up before even trying : )

Personally, I think this is a serious issue with this view, in that people get focused on their performance, and lose their joy in their salvation. And likewise find they lack the power to live godly, because they are trying to reform their flesh, not following a walk in faith and rest.

Okie dokie. Just keep in mind that the vast majority of what the New Testament writers taught was based off interpretation of OT passages and verses, and the Jews rejected those interpretations in the same way you are rejecting mine. My response here would be that wisdom is deemed right by her children. But not a biggie.

I'd respond that the New Testament was written by inspiration from the Holy Spirit. And that this is the wisdom we justify.

"the Jews rejected those interpretations in the same way you are rejecting mine."

Is that so?

Tell me. Why is it, that when you bring "outside revelation", of which I have no detail, into a discussion of Scriptural interpretation, and that I hang my hat on the authority of the Bible over (please take no offense!) someone writing on the internet that there is extra revelation that tells us how to understand these things, why am I then compared to the Pharisees in rejecting Jesus and His Apostles?

Much love!