Stumbling Block verses

[bbyrd009]

Absolutely!

Any seeming contradictions show incomplete understanding. Another word that's a red flag for me is "tension" between passages. There is only harmonly.

Much love!

yet when i start spitting them you are going to go away, m marks
so what gives bro

 

[stunnedbygrace]

what "transgression" were you speaking of?

I was speaking of how He came to put an end to transgression, not so that transgression would continue. Then you asked what I thought "transgression" was. So I explained what I thought it was - a coup. A man planted a vineyard and another wanted it, so he tried to steal it.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, I can see that. I just balk at the thought that Satan is in control of the earth. I know it appears that way sometimes, but I look at all the bible and stories of where men did their worst or Satan did his worst THROUGH men, and how they or he meant it for evil but God meant it for good. So the worst darkness can do or attempt cannot overcome light.

So I can look at a story like Joseph sold into slavery and I can agree that it was Satan acting through men, but God turned it to good, many people saved in famine. So...I don't see Satan as in control of the earth or in control of my life and its events.

...and I create evil; I, Yah-AEOU, do all these things

 

[stunnedbygrace]

so you say, but cannot Quote bro

When they stuck a spear in His side, blood was not spilled out onto the ground...?

 

[bbyrd009]

I was speaking of how He came to put an end to transgression, not so that transgression would continue. Then you asked what I thought "transgression" was. So I explained what I thought it was - a coup. A man planted a vineyard and another wanted it, so he tried to steal it.

imo it is more like maybe a perspective, of an opposer
we heard you coming and we knew that we were naked, so we hid
Who told you that you were naked? (not Me!)

 

[bbyrd009]

When they stuck a spear in His side, blood was not spilled out onto the ground...?

there is an orig root word for "blood" that was not used, and the one that was is more like "issue" i guess, although "blood" is strictly speaking under its umbrella, yes. But xlating it "blood" is just wrong imo. And it is that one, single v, right, no Witness anywhere. The spear was in the side, yes, where Eve came from?

dang, gotta run, yall have a good one
i "have to" go do stuff now...lol

Yes, I do. I think it's all about Him

well, and yet No Son of Man may die for another's sins will still be There after we are both gone, right
you are allowed to do whatever you like with it imo

I was speaking of how He came to put an end to transgression, not so that transgression would continue.

that is speaking a redundancy wadr; iow the point that should have been made in pt 2 was not

 

[Hidden In Him]

You are believing the lie of what is called penal substitution.

The god that was being propitiated was not almighty God...but the god of this world. The devil demanded the death of Jesus... The Father allowed His Son to die as an offering to the evil of this world...

Episkopos, no offense here man, but I have to tell you here that this teaching is blasphemous, and I don't use that word very often.
I do not subscribe to penal substitution. The word used in scripture was propitiation, not substitution, and that propitiation was not made because we were coming short of appeasing the Devil. It's because we were falling short of the glory of God and could not enter Heaven.

Look at the text:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the Justifier of him who believes in Jesus.

This states that God wanted to justify mankind with having the right to enter Heaven, but He could not do so until a propitiation was made on man's behalf. That propitiation was Christ Jesus, who became the justifier of those who believe in the efficacy of His blood. This is not God tormenting His own Son needlessly. It is asking Him to become obedient unto death that He might become a propitiation for those who believed in Him, and reign in eternity over those who thus counted Him fully worthy to do so forever.

@stunnedbygrace

 

[bbyrd009]

nope, and wadr you are not even trying, you are even running from truth bro, sorry
I desire mercy, not sacrifice
No Son of Man may die for another's sins
There is only One Immortal
No one
has ever
gone up to heaven...

now if what you say is true, then you should be able to fit those Bible vv into it, right @Hidden In Him

"like a slave to a trend"
btw these guys are not in zombie drag bc they are into zombies ok

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos, no offense here man, but I have to tell you here that this teaching is blasphemous, and I don't use that word very often.
I do not subscribe to penal substitution. The word used in scripture was propitiation, not substitution, and that propitiation was not made because we were coming short of appeasing the Devil. It's because we were falling short of the glory of God and could not enter Heaven.

Look at the text:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the Justifier of him who believes in Jesus.

This states that God wanted to justify mankind with having the right to enter Heaven, but He could not do so until a propitiation was made on man's behalf. That propitiation was Christ Jesus, who became the justifier of those who believe in the efficacy of His blood. This is not God tormenting His own Son needlessly. It is asking Him to become obedient unto death that He might become a propitiation for those who believed in Him, and reign in eternity over those who thus counted Him fully worthy to do so forever.

You are simply missing the grandiose nature of the plan of God in opting for a religious formula that you think makes sense...because you believe it makes sense. But there is no sense at all to it.

You are being scandalized by the extreme nature of God's ways. So you will become offended by the truth.

Happy is the one who doesn't stumble over Jesus Christ.

The blasphemy is to have God pour wrath out on His own Son for something He didn't do. It makes God hate righteousness...but that is the devil's work. So you are also against righteousness. You deny God the right to do as He pleases and judge as He wants...and justify whoever He wants...all without your say so. So this scandalizes you.

You are not going deep enough to see it.

Look at this statement you made...

This states that God wanted to justify mankind with having the right to enter Heaven, but He could not do so until a propitiation was made on man's behalf.

You are making all this up....without any support. Prove even ONE of the aspects of what you say you believe is the truth...from the bible.

Why is God so unable to do things in your scheme? He got frustrated and threw a spear across the room that Jesus got in the way of? Now that God feels bad about killing His own Son...He forgives us for being evil? Because He also did an evil thing?

Explain from the bible...the logic. You are confusing God with king Saul...or worse.

 

[Episkopos]

Did Jesus come to shelter us from a wrathful God...as in..."For God so was angry at the world?" God is love. Does God hate His Son and the works of His Son?

Or did Jesus come to reconcile us with the Father. A loving Father....not a wrathful one.

So either Jesus is protecting us against an angry God...or He is bringing God's love to us.

And why are so many ignorant of the devil and his schemes...never mentioning him in all of this.

it's like they need to give support to the devil by keeping him out of the picture.

Or is it because the devil's deflection of the truth has been swallowed...hook line and sinker? The devil's schemes have worked on many who call themselves Jesus supporters.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

there is an orig root word for "blood" that was not used, and the one that was is more like "issue" i guess, although "blood" is strictly speaking under its umbrella, yes. But xlating it "blood" is just wrong imo. And it is that one, single v, right, no Witness anywhere. The spear was in the side, yes, where Eve came from?

It seems a bit silly to me to debate whether or not blood spills out if a human body is jammed with a spear. I don't mean to say you are silly, Bbyrd, just that to debate whether there was any blood involved in a whipping and crucifixion seems silly to me...I guess I don't understand why you want proof of a verse that any blood was involved...do you think there was some miraculous thing going on that no matter what they did to Him, no blood came out of his body? I wouldn't rail at you if you thought that. It would be a new one that i'd never heard before for sure, but I wouldn't laugh or mock you if you thought it.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You are being scandalized by the extreme nature of God's ways. So you will become offended by the truth.

Who said I was offended by it, LoL. I disagree with it and think it's heretical, but I'm not getting offended by it : )

The blasphemy is to have God pour wrath out on His own Son for something He didn't do. It makes God hate righteousness...but that is the devil's work. So you are also against righteousness. You deny God the right to do as He pleases and judge as He wants...and justify whoever He wants...all without your say so. So this scandalizes you.

Ok, wait, wait, wait. I said nothing about "God's wrath," nor did I say God hated Christ's righteousness. You're not talking to me here, you are talking to others you have apparently had this conversation with.

This states that God wanted to justify mankind with having the right to enter Heaven, but He could not do so until a propitiation was made on man's behalf.

You are making all this up....without any support. Prove even ONE of the aspects of what you say you believe is the truth...from the bible.

Uh, oh. We appear to be reaching an impasse already, because I quoted you a passage of scripture just before stating this. I've also noticed, btw, and again this is not trying to offend you, but you rarely actually quote scripture and deal with it analytically. Most of your posts consist of theorization. If you are going to flatly ignore the passage I quoted you, not give an exegesis on where you think my interpretation is incorrect, and yet tell me I have no scripture to back up what I am saying....

That leaves us almost nowhere to go. You will go on theorizing, and any scripture I bring up will immediately be ignored again and not addressed.

 

[Episkopos]

So we see by the responses of some here how Jesus can become a stumbling block. People stumble over the truth to believe the lie that the devil whispers in the ears of they who don't understand God's ways. God is very drastic...so revolutionary that it fries the brain cells of they that try to comprehend it.

The devil wants us to believe the very opposite of the truth. His delight is in crafting a lie that is SO believable that most people eagerly accept it. When he works his deceptions and evil...he wants you to think it is God almighty (quite the ego). And when God works righteously he wants you to say it was the devil.

And watch how vehemently the lie is upheld. It is marvelous to see. (not in a good way)

 

[Episkopos]

Who said I was offended by it, LoL. I disagree with it and think it's heretical, but I'm not getting offended by it : )


Ok, wait, wait, wait. I said nothing about "God's wrath," nor did I say God hated Christ's righteousness. You're not talking to me here, you are talking to others you have apparently had this conversation with.


Uh, oh. We appear to be reaching an impasse already, because I quoted you a passage of scripture just before stating this. I've also noticed, btw, and again this is not trying to offend you, but you rarely actually quote scripture and deal with it analytically. Most of your posts consist of theorization. If you are going to flatly ignore the passage I quoted you, not give an exegesis on where you think my interpretation is incorrect, and yet tell me I have no scripture to back up what I am saying....

That leaves us almost nowhere to go. You will go on theorizing, and any scripture I bring up will immediately be ignored again and not addressed.

I am trying to reason with your ideas....not scripture. I can't use scripture because you have been indoctrinated to believe a lie from the bible. (although it is only by a deviated interpretation that you support your position) And if I post Hebrew...where the truth is laid out plainly...you won't understand it. So it is based on your limitations to reason by the Spirit that I refrain from using the methods that indoctrinated you in the first place.

How do you de-program a person? With the same methods that indoctrinated the person in the first place...or with a patient reasoning and associating things together to form a proper assessment of things?

Your theories get in the way of a proper understanding...and because you have flipped good and evil...you say I'm the one with the theories. That is proof of inversion in your beliefs. But you would have to know yourself to see that.

So if I say that the devil is evil and loves the lie...you will agree.

And if I say that God is righteous and loves righteousness...you will agree.

But then you will deny this when we talk about something you have been sold on. No logic there.

Illogic is not cured by bible reading. It makes things worse.

 

[Episkopos]

For they who would want to better understand God's ways...and not remain ignorant of the devil and his ways...

A lesson in logic...

Does God love righteousness? Yes

Does God love His only Son? Yes

Is God well pleased with His Son? Yes

Does God hate the world? No. God is love

Is God angry with His Son and desires to pour His wrath out on Him? No (God forbid)

Where was the devil when Jesus was on the cross? Was he suffering with Jesus at the hand of a wrathful God? No...he was jeering at Jesus.

Who put Jesus on the cross? God or evil men? Evil men.

Are we to listen to Jesus? Yes

Are we to listen to the devil and his accusations against God? NO.

But people will go exactly against all this to have God punishing Jesus and killing Him...without realizing it is the devil's doing.

The devil is very smart indeed...smart enough to fool many who say they know the truth.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am trying to reason with your ideas....not scripture. I can't use scripture because you have been indoctrinated to believe a lie from the bible. And if I post Hebrew...you won't understand it. So it is based on your limitations to reason by the Spirit that I refrain from using the methods that indoctrinated you in the first place.

Indoctrinated! Are you sure you're talking to me here, LoL!

Episkopos, if you think I can't handle talking actual scripture with you then ok. I think you are assuming things, but that's your business. Would I understand Hebrew if you posted it? No. But I'm not sure how that eliminates us from being able to talk scripture altogether, LoL.

How do you de-program a person? With the same methods as what indoctrinated the person in the first place...or with a patient reasoning and associating things together to form a proper assessment of things?

I've got news for you, Episkopos. Until you can address scripture passages in their context with me, you could present patient reasoning from now until the cows come home. It will all fall on deaf ears. I've told you before, you occasionally use some good logic and make some good points, but you also overspiritualize on occasions as well, and abandon yourself to your own reasonings at the expense of what strict analysis of the text is actually saying.

Illogic is not cured by bible reading. It makes things worse.

And proper exegesis is not attained by bypassing strict analysis of the word on this grounds.

We're going nowhere, so I guess I'll talk to you later.

Have a great day, and be blessed.

 

[Episkopos]

Indoctrinated! Are you sure you're talking to me here, LoL!

Episkopos, if you think I can't handle you talking actual scripture with you then ok. I think you are assuming things, but that's your business. Would I underhand Hebrew if you posted it? No. But I'm not sure how that eliminates us from being able to talk scripture altogether, LoL.


I've got news for you, Episkopos. Until you can address scripture passages in their context with me, you could present patient reasoning from now until the cows come home. It will all fall on deaf ears. I've told you before, you occasionally use some good logic and make some good points, but you also overspiritualize on occasions as well, and abandon yourself to your own reasonings at the expense of what strict analysis of the text is actually saying.


And proper exegesis is not attained by bypassing strict analysis of the word on this grounds.

We're going nowhere, so I guess I'll talk to you later.

Have a great day, and be blessed.

In the real world I posted this thread based on a misappropriation of the meaning of a text...turning the truth of God into a lie.

I used actual bible verses....just go back to the beginning of this thread to see if those verses are still there.

I also showed how people get the verses wrong.

You are proving my point. So you don't remember that I did indeed post bible verses. Because you are going by interpretations...not what is there.

Go back to the OP and the first posts to see what I'm speaking of.

 

[Episkopos]

And proper exegesis is not attained by bypassing strict analysis of the word on this grounds.

The statement made that created thousands of denominations. Can you say...Babel!?

Understanding comes from the Spirit and comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. It can get easy...if one is honest. But self-interest is the primary motivation behind most of modern "exegesis."

We have become quite creative in our lying.

 

[Philip James]

The Father allowed His Son to die as an offering to the evil of this world...to show it for what it was...evil. God came to us in the weakness of the flesh...and the evil powers took advantage of that...just as God foresaw. To think that God poured out His wrath on His Son for the sins of the world...of which He was completely innocent...is a lie from the devil. It is the kind of evil that crucified Jesus.

How can a believer in Jesus Christ believe the lie?

That God offered Jesus death to the enemy is as repulsive (if not more so) as suggesting our Father was wrathful to the Son.

We were all dead, in prison, and Jesus came and broke the chains and prison doors and said 'come follow me'

Evil men unjustly persecuted and killed Him, but it is Jesus who freely endured this offering His life to the Father for our sakes.

For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.

"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

When he was insulted, he returned no insult; when he suffered, he did not threaten; instead, he handed himself over to the one who judges justly.

Peace!

 

[Episkopos]

That God offered Jesus death to the enemy is as repulsive (if not more so) as suggesting our Father was wrathful to the Son.

Have you ever heard of martyrs?

Is God not pleased that people remain His witnesses unto death?

Is it death that repels you? Or glory?

Who kills (sacrifices) martyrs? God? The devil?

Do you know?

We were all dead, in prison, and Jesus came and broke the chains and prison doors and said 'come follow me'

Evil men unjustly persecuted and killed Him, but it is Jesus who freely endured this offering His life to the Father for our sakes.

For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps.

"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

When he was insulted, he returned no insult; when he suffered, he did not threaten; instead, he handed himself over to the one who judges justly.

Peace!

All this is true. Tactically true. But you are missing the strategy of God behind all this.

Do you know the difference between tactics and strategy?

Anyone who knows about warfare knows this very well. And God is both a master tactician AND strategist. Only the very best generals are so.