Stumbling Block verses

[GISMYS_7]

BTW- I do not subscribe to this...

I - Irresistible Grace
The fourth Biblical truth in the five points of Calvinism teaches that God's grace to save a person cannot be resisted. Grace is God's free and unmerited power to save a person from his sins which would otherwise lead us to hell. Grace brings him to heaven who naturally would end in eternal hell.

That grace is irresistible. That means that if God gives grace to you, there is nothing in the world that you can do to resist it and thwart God's intention to take you to heaven. The certainty of salvation for God's elect is seen in John 6:37 where Jesus says: "All that the Father hath given me shall come to me..." There is no doubt that they will be saved. Verse 44 says that those who come to God come because God draws them. Not our will, but God's will is first and powerful.

Now, some ridicule this truth of the Bible and say that it makes man go to heaven against his will. "He kicks and screams all the way to heaven." But that is not how the Bible presents God's grace. God makes His people "willing in the day of His power" Psalm 110:3. For a wonderful illustration of that truth, just consider the converted Apostle Paul. "By the grace of God' he was what he was (I Corinthians 15:10). And immediately after his conversion he said willingly, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Acts 9:6. That surely was not against his will.

God's grace is sweet and irresistible. He makes us love it and want nothing else. He is as irresistible to us as a husband to his newly-wed bride. Come with us and hear God's wonderful grace proclaimed in Christ any Lord's Day.

God will not force anyone to believe and accept His love, gift of salvation, mercy, forgiveness, blessings, and gifts!!

 

[ScottA]

The truth is that when WE take Jesus' shed blood for ourselves...we are only proving that we are guilty of sin. We killed Jesus...and we are still doing it...if we justify ourselves through death. We bring death...but God brings life.

Do we see that the religion we have created around Jesus and His sacrifice is a kind of "anti-Jesus" movement that celebrates the killing of Jesus, except for Easter of course, and the cursory nod that indeed Jesus didn't stay dead.

But had Jesus stayed dead...that would not have stopped the religion we have created...since we look to His death for justification ...not His life.

1 Cor. 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

Are we not still in our sins...until we become justified by walking in His life?

Is our faith not in the death of Jesus...His shed blood? Do we not adhere to a dead religion...a religion of death? And all this by inverting the meaning of the truth.

I am getting ready to leave on a trip, sorry if I don't get to follow along, we'll see.

Anyway, I love the OP--so true!

But, I don't know how good an example the blood issue is (pun unintended). It is good to understand it, and you have done a great job in explaining; but I don't see death actually being glorified. I see those who are pricked in the heart by His sacrifice being grateful, even if they don't have an complete or even correct understanding. Regardless, I see them receiving it as a gift, fully understanding that the result is eternal life. But I don't see the misunderstanding being a rabbit hole leading to a loss of salvation.

Certainly, there are other major departures and forks in the road. One of the biggest for these times of the gentiles and the church, is the fork in the road where Jesus asked his disciples "Who do men say that I am?" And where Peter received the correct answer from our Father in heaven. What follows is exactly one of those "self" side trips, one that was not even recognized for 1500 years, and not fully understood even to this day. ...BUT...it was easily avoidable, thus intentional (just like the type of blindness placed upon Israel). Jesus, very easily could have clarified what "rock(s)" He was referring to, without question...but did not. He allowed it to be misunderstood. Very curious, to say the least.

Thus, in navigating all these issues, it is important to give glory to God and keep a pure heart.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Irresistible grace is the "I" in the Calvinists acronym T.U.L.I.P.-simply means that we have no choice and are compelled or even forced to believe in/on Him...takes away "choice". People come to The Lord for many reasons and, if they are humble and open about their sin, it should not matter "how" one comes to Him...some kicking and screaming, others brought up in the Faith, others...fear.
V.I.J. could probably explain this better...

Hmm... from my limited viewpoint, when I first read the gospels, Jesus was irresistible. But...not at first...in Mathew I think I remember thinking Jesus was blindly naive but good and kind. I liked Him. By Mark, I thought He was deluded because the world was not as He seemed to think it was. By Luke, I thought, oh...He isn't talking about the world but about some different place. By John I was on my face turning to God.

From my viewpoint, which is limited, Jesus was irresistible. I was hooked. There wasn't any thought in my mind about resisting what i had just seen.

So...I think to me, He was irresistible. I guess I think He cured my blindness and I could suddenly see that God existed and...I did try to turn back to the world at some later point, for 6 months, so I think grace can be turned away from, but I'm not a good candidate to see if grace is irresistible because the world held little appeal for me before I met God and zero appeal after I met Him, so I turned back to Him again.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

V.I.J. could probably explain this better...

Honestly I know very little about Tulip or Calvin or irresistible grace. The terms that is. Not sure how this applies to your post but Episkopos said something in his OP. I was going to ask epi why one is instructed to not throw a stumbling block in front of another. That has always confused me ...in Christ is a stumbling block. But this helped:

Jesus Christ is BOTH the cornerstone of the truth and the stumbling block away from the truth.

...the stumbling block away from the truth. Makes better sense now in: do not throw a stumbling block away from the truth in front of another. Isaiah 57:14 And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people.

...the stumbling block “away from the truth.” John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Do not know about Tulip. Scared to follow any man too closely and think everything that man says is right. Only suggest when John 3:30 happens there is nothing in the way of truth shining Unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: [4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

“...should shine unto them.” That is it right, in not seeing Him. When He is seen, there becomes no question about following after Him. We see this countless times in scripture when eyes and ears are opened to Him.

 

[Nancy]

Honestly I know very little about Tulip or Calvin or irresistible grace. The terms that is. Not sure how this applies to your post but Episkopos said something in his OP. I was going to ask epi why one is instructed to not throw a stumbling block in front of another. That has always confused me ...in Christ is a stumbling block. But this helped:



...the stumbling block away from the truth. Makes better sense now in: do not throw a stumbling block away from the truth in front of another. Isaiah 57:14 And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people.

...the stumbling block “away from the truth.” John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Do not know about Tulip. Scared to follow any man too closely and think everything that man says is right. Only suggest when John 3:30 happens there is nothing in the way of truth shining Unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: [4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

“...should shine unto them.” That is it right, in not seeing Him. When He is seen, there becomes no question about following after Him. We see this countless times in scripture when eyes and ears are opened to Him.

"Honestly I know very little about Tulip or Calvin or irresistible grace. The terms that is. Not sure how this applies to your post but Episkopos said something in his OP. I was going to ask epi why one is instructed to not throw a stumbling block in front of another. That has always confused me ...in Christ is a stumbling block. But this helped:" (...the stumbling block “away from the truth.” John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.)

Agreed here about what Epi said about decreasing: "For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21. And dead to the old man...gotta always remember that
We say NO to sin. Because, we are new creatures and dead to the old man. Should we not continue to strive for God's high calling as Paul did?
And, continue to strive to attain to His calling in our own lives.
Calvinism has reared it's highly controversial head my way since the early 1990's...even belonged to a Calvinistic local body for more than 2 years...so I guess it is anathema to me and I have moved on, yet still love and pray for those other minded concerning this. It was quite the
stumbling block" for me personally for a long time.

"4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: [4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

To me a stumbling block can be used in different ways...such as...Of course, for the Jews and...if it offends my bro or sis to eat meat, or drink alcohol (especially if that bro or sis has an addiction to such things) I would have not a problem at all to abstain so as not to put temptation before them? Or, to teach erroneous doctrine maybe? But our God is able to save to the uttermost and prayers for loved ones will never cease for their salvation (and, salvation is an ongoing thing as we are "being saved"?) JMO

"4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: [4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

I will always pray for hearts to be softened, blinders and any obstacle to be removed that is hindering the lost from coming to Christ!! Change hearts and minds Lord!

I'm sorry, probably all over the place with this post but...you are smart and, I'm sure you can edit it for me, lol~!!
xo

 

[ScottA]

boy, sure sounds like you are
narf

I think we see a ton of this going on right here on the forum, I mean unintended conflict and disagreements by confessing "Christians." Too bad it even gets bitter.

 

[ScottA]

This is difficult for me to grasp. Bear with me. The shedding of blood is to...make atonement for sin and to cleanse. In the temple, it had to be done repeatedly because the people kept sinning because of the weakness of their flesh...and this made their conscience not clean.

So...it follows, to me anyway, that the blood of Jesus was to cleanse so that we could go before God. But He also always told healed people, go and sin no more...ah, its too much for me.

Indeed, these things are representational of spiritual things on high, just as Jesus referred to Himself as the Manna come down from heaven.

It is important to remember that God himself has confounded all language (at Babel), and that parables are His demonstrated chosen method of communication.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

you are smart and, I'm sure you can edit it for me, lol~!!
xo

That is funny. If you only knew how many times I’ve been asked if I’m illiterate. Anyways, thank you for sharing your own being snared in Calvinism. Can relate, maybe not with Calvin but getting swept up in something to later come out of.

 

[Philip James]

The god that was being propitiated was not almighty God...but the god of this world. The devil demanded the death of Jesus

This is absurd.

Jesus did not offer the devil a propitiary sacrifice. What a horrible thought.

Neither could 'the god of this world' demand anything of Jesus.

Jesus death on the cross destroyed his power, it did not appease it.

Jesus freely laid down His life for love of us. His perfect obedience, yes even to death on a cross, He offered to the Father as reparation for our disobedience.

In doing so He opend for us the way of Salvation, the path to eternal life.

Dying He destroyed our death.
Rising He restored our life.
Lord Jesus, come in Glory!

I'm reminded of a verse that says, the life is in the blood.

Indeed, the life is in the blood. And all life belongs to God.

What wondrous joy that HE would share HIS life with us, that He would unite us with Himself!

This cup is the new covenant in my blood..

Father, we praise and thank you for the gift of the Bread of Life, and the Cup of Salvation! All glory and honour are Yours! Forever and ever.

All are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is absurd.

Jesus did not offer the devil a propitiary sacrifice. What a horrible thought.

Neither could 'the god of this world' demand anything of Jesus.

Jesus death on the cross destroyed his power, it did not appease it.

Yes. Our friend missed it pretty badly here.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes. Our friend missed it pretty badly here.

Meh...I understood him. God did not kill Himself to appease Himself.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Meh...I understood him. God did not kill Himself to appease Himself.

That's a rather oversimplified version, don't you think? LoL. But not something I care going over. Bigger fish to fry.

Blessings, sister, and hope you are having a wonderful evening.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I like simple.

 

[Episkopos]

He offered to the Father as reparation for our disobedience.

You are believing the lie of what is called penal substitution. God does not destroy righteousness..the devil does. And it was indeed the devil that demanded the blood of Jesus....which was freely given. If you know of a man called Job...where the devil was permitted to hurt him but not to take his life.

God's redemptive strategy is too hard for many to understand. But blaming God for the death of Jesus is taking things way too far.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I like simple.

Simple is good, until it turns into oversimplified. Then it's TOO simple : )

 

[Philip James]

You are believing the lie of what is called penal substitution. God does not destroy righteousness..the devil does.

The devil cannot destroy righetousness.

Righteousness rather destroys the devil.

I dont know what you mean by 'penal substitution'...

Jesus' sacrifice was an act of love to free us from death.

This is how much I love you God says..
Can we do aught but love Him in return?
Are we willing to lay our lives down for HIM and for each other?

Peace!

 

[Philip James]

But blaming God for the death of Jesus is taking things way too far.

Blaming God?

Hardly! I blame us and our disobedience that would have kept me ever lost from God,

But praise the Lord! Who humbled Himself and became one of us, and did that which we could not do, be perfectfly obedient to the Father's will.

Peace!

 

[Enoch111]

You are believing the lie of what is called penal substitution. God does not destroy righteousness..the devil does.

This remark confirms that you have absolutely no understanding of the finished work of Christ or Penal Substitution -- WHICH IS A FUNDAMENTAL GOSPEL TRUTH.

 

[Episkopos]

This remark confirms that you have absolutely no understanding of the finished work of Christ or Penal Substitution -- WHICH IS A FUNDAMENTAL GOSPEL TRUTH.

This is how the truth gets inverted into becoming a religious dogmatic belief system...that disparages God. Fundamentally wrong you should say about your own reasoning. Fundamentally misguided and carnal you should realize.

So who persecutes righteousness? God is righteous and He loves righteousness. Just read of the promises that God has made towards the righteous. The only time where righteousness is rebuked by God is when this stands against His holiness. (Did Jesus stand against holiness? Why even ask such a question)

Who sends prophets and offers them up to be killed by religious men? And who does the killing?

So then there are many who have reversed the roles of God and the devil. Religious blindness does this. Religion is not the same as spiritual discernment...actually it goes exactly contrary to it.....as we can see. God allows us to be tempted...yet He Himself does not do the tempting. He allows His faithful to be killed...but He Himself does not do the killing.

We are to be living sacrifices for God. But is it God that brings us tribulations? Or the world?

So then the great confusion about God and His ways lies in the truth that God permits evil but for a greater good. God sows in weakness but reaps in glory.

This is incomprehensible for the carnal mind to fathom. Only God can take an evil act...like the crucifixion of Jesus...and make it redemptive. To see this is to see the greatness of God and to fall at His feet.

 

[Episkopos]

“You search the Scriptures, for in them YOU THINK you have eternal life; and these [scriptures] are they WHICH TESTIFY OF ME. 40 But you are not willing TO COME TO ME THAT YOU MAY HAVE *LIFE.*!!!” John 5:39

Why is dogma seen as a fundamental but not life from above through the Spirit?

Because they are fundamentals on how to be religious and stumble over Jesus.