Universalism: Where Do People Get The Idea

[Ezra]

I would suggest you do a little more study on the issue, the following blog posts might help shed some light:

The Day of Salvation

The Two Salvation's

Two Phases of the Kingdom

left field theology

 

[Ezra]

Yes I agree, God is Holy, He is Just, and angry with sin, He hates it...
But He is also Merciful, Forgiving and God is Love.

So how can anyone claim that His Justice is stronger than His Love?
I asked for NT verses where these people pull that belief from , that's all.

I've often wondered how God can demand love from us for our enemies ..., and forgiveness from us...etc...yet you all say that He will not do the same re love and forgiveness.

That is what I was saying...explained as well as I can.

I also wonder why it is that whenever 'the restoration of all things' is mention people get so angry in their posts against it... I have hardly met anyone who will just 'discuss' it calmly.
Thats all.

God is love o merciful forgiving every thing you mentioned to be honest i am still not fully understanding your exact point your trying to make.. the subject is universalism every single person living will be saved . that just dont line up with scripture . luke 16
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Revelation 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Revelation 9:20-21 King James Version (KJV)
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.
Revelation 16:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, this is why unverviseralism is not Bible

 

[Ezra]

Well, since the Old Covenant is null and void, where do you think Christian doctrines come from -- where do you think the doctrine of Christ comes from, except from the NT? So we should dismiss your false conclusion.

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. (Acts 2:42)

The apostles' doctrine came directly from the Lord Jesus Christ. Not only did He open all the OT Scriptures to them after His resurrection, but He taught them for 40 days after that. Plus Paul received his doctrines directly from Christ after his conversion.

you have to understand he is calvinist . to be fair to d taylor calvinism has some good points.. but i dont agree with it. i am %100 free will God does give us opportunity to be saved..they say only certain one /divine election are chosen to be saved .for years i discussed this in carm . for some reason i can't get back in.. i butted heads heavy with a theo if you didn't agree with him you was a false teacher


here is link that semi explains Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct? | GotQuestions.org


here is a better one Calvinism and Arminianism comparison

 

[Ezra]

I pretty much dismiss anyone who thinks that the doctrines we believe must come out of the NT.

where do they come from???????????

 

[VictoryinJesus]

might I suggest that all doctrine originated in the OT.?

yes and the OT reveals Christ. The volume ...

 

[Base12]

You don't think it would be loving to keep people out of heaven that would invariably disrupt the peace and cause sin to rise again? These people you want in heaven: you do realise they are unconverted right?

Obviously, the Bible does not teach that the unsaved get a free pass into Heaven. A price must be paid.

From what I've seen on various forums and Social Media so far is that the Universalists are the closest to solving the Mystery. They are looking in the correct location (Lake of Fire), however they fall short of the mark.

Unfortunately, it would seem that some lies about Death and Hell are so great, even they can't see past them.

Again, I leave this verse...

Matthew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"

Am I the only one here that believes what Jesus said?

It is definitely literal, and until One accepts this, One will never understand why all will be saved in the end.

I will say this much though...

It takes a lot of guts to walk through that door. I don't expect anyone here to accept this Deep Truth anytime soon.

 

[Base12]

Why do some people think that everyone goes to Heaven in the end? Satan, because he is the father of lies.

This is actually a very ironic statement.

The greatest lie that the Devil has going is...

"God is Love and torments people for all of Eternity"

Everyone knows that this is not only a contradiction, but a contradiction that cannot be reconciled.

We see good Christians try and try to reconcile the opposing ideas, but in the end they are just making things worse.

Thus, the end result often times are those very same Christians walking away from the Faith.

I've seen it happen many times. They simply give up.

 

[07-07-07]

This is actually a very ironic statement.

The greatest lie that the Devil has going is...

"God is Love and torments people for all of Eternity"

Everyone knows that this is not only a contradiction, but a contradiction that cannot be reconciled.

Your error is that you have painted God as being just "love". God is not just love, but wrath too. People choose hell because they reject the Word of God, the only way to eternal life.

We see good Christians try and try to reconcile the opposing ideas, but in the end they are just making things worse.

Thus, the end result often times are those very same Christians walking away from the Faith.

I've seen it happen many times. They simply give up.

Satan twisted God's Word to Adam and Eve, and it was effective; he's still using the same tactic nowadays.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Happy thoughts... combined with little knowledge of scripture.

Lol....okay Peter Pan! Happy thoughts!

 

[Heart2Soul]

Ive always wondered where or when the word "eternal" , became forever and ever . I've done a word study on ages, eon, forever , etc...

It does amaze me how easily humans ( christians) can so glibly say ""He or she is off to hell" ...without even a blink of an eye.
But God is a 'checker of fruit'...and He will be checking , on That Day.

Maybe that is the whole test of our life and faith.....maybe that is the acid test we are all up against... = " Do we love like God did/does.."

I am not sure that when we stand 'alone' before Him , He won't say -
" So you were tested by your heart....and you are found wanting..you did not love like I did, but will to write people off with a flick of the little finger."

I personally am not will to take that chance. I will 'judge' God as righteous and merciful , ready to forgive... I will not risk judge Him a hard and austere man as in the parable.

Just my two cent's

@Willie T

Excellent! Very wise words @Helen !

 

[Heart2Soul]

I tried to 'like' your post, but my like button won't work today.
View attachment 8179

lol

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The time is nearing when Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary as our Mediator and intercessor, will close.. He shall then come, not as High Priest, but as King of Kings and Lord of lords to take home those who are His.
KJV Revelation 22
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

no one answers me ...maybe they think I’m too far gone? I like you and value what you share. As much as others don’t know how one can think this way...I’m trying to understand the other perspective even though I once held it myself that God is going to come and destroy His enemies in slaughter. which He does but (imo) not as man imagines. I’m not against God’s justice only don’t think His justice looks the same as man’s justice...nor His destruction looks like man’s...this is seen with Saul/Paul. For example: (Matthew 5:2-12) is His justice and rule which Paul spoke of those who walk according to this rule(of peace). Justice is God has given what does not come to nothing to those in (Matthew 5:2-12). ..everything outside of that “blessed are...” all we are discussing that persecute those ”blessed are...” ...their (curses) come to nothing having no weight, no profit.

What you mention above in your comment ...two things stand out. One) Lions are not being set up but lions are being removed, and a new rule set up of God...established Of the Lamb. to be King of kings and Lord of lords ...then He has to rule. In verse 12) “to give every man according as his work shall be.“ ...to give according as his work shall be. if mercy and blessing has been sown where there was none...does God not give according to the work of mercy and blessing? No one yet has addressed the power of God whose blessings (Children)overcome the curses. (Imo) this lines up with suffering loss when “to give according to their works” comes to nothing of value(burned by His presence) is given to curses sown. the Glory revealed in His brightness of God giving to His children according to His children’s works of the Spirit of God. Don’t you see if the enemies of God sow nothing but emptiness ...the children of God sow something not empty (James 3:14-18)...And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

...justice is evil works coming to nought(empty). no value. No weight. No measure of love. While the good works(fruit) of The Spirit of God (the blessings) Is lifted up above all things which dissolve. “To give according to the work” ...Do we think God hates His children and loves the persecution and treatment of them? Why Happy and blessed are they? The more the curse rages of no value...the more His blessing is sown “to give according to their works” which does not burn and come to nothing BUT remains. Remains...His blessings sown. The curse not remaining but removed. Are we saying God doesn’t give to His children according to their works? (Imo) it begins to fall apart at claiming to be children yet “to give according to their works” becomes “it is mine and for me” instead of Christ words of John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

 

[Base12]

God is not just love, but wrath too.

There's that irony again.

Wrath is a function of Love.

Wrath and Love are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Helen]

What do you get this crackpot idea?

Who's feet you sit at to get you doctrine from I have no idea...if you believe that sound doctrine comes from the OT then you are 'one of a kind' and have your own doctrine...pray tell ( but you won't or can't ) what ARE the doctrines that you find in the OT??

I am still waiting for your scripture verse saying that 'God's Justice will never be be overshadowed by His Love...'

But, as bro @Enoch111 said much better than I. ( I am amazed that you asked as it does show 'where you are, but more so where you are not)

Quote Enoch:-
< where do you think Christian doctrines come from -- where do you think the doctrine of Christ comes from, except from the NT?

"And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers". (Acts 2:42)

The apostles' doctrine came directly from the Lord Jesus Christ. Not only did He open all the OT Scriptures to them after His resurrection, but He taught them for 40 days after that. Plus Paul received his doctrines directly from Christ after his conversion. >

Your ignorance is showing David.

 

[Helen]

God is love. Justice doesn't overrule love, it harmonises with it. And you seem to equate been
g just with being cruel. Yet God says of us that we should do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God. Justice is not an immoral attribute that needs love to overcome it... It is a necessary and essential trait of the Godhead to keep order in the universe. If justice was negated or overrule by love, then why did Jesus die?

No argument from me...I said that to him because he seems to think otherwise...that Gods justice trumps all of Gods other attributes.
God revealed Himself by His different names to Abraham...El Shaddai... The Many Breasted One..should give David Taylor a bit of a clue ...the God of many attributes.

 

[Helen]

might I suggest that all doctrine originated in the OT.?

Again I agree, it was all there...that is why Jesus opened the OT up to them on the road to Emeaus ... but as I just mention above ...The Apostles doctrine is what is taught in the NT .....Given by Jesus Himself.

none of this changes that fact the no one yet has quoted a verse which says - "God's Justice will never be overruled by His Love"...which if you check many threads, is so often quoted as a verse.
Hense I asked the question of two of them already...

 

[Helen]

This is actually a very ironic statement.

The greatest lie that the Devil has going is...

"God is Love and torments people for all of Eternity"

Everyone knows that this is not only a contradiction, but a contradiction that cannot be reconciled.

We see good Christians try and try to reconcile the opposing ideas, but in the end they are just making things worse.

Thus, the end result often times are those very same Christians walking away from the Faith.

I've seen it happen many times. They simply give up.

Im not sure that I welcomed you to the Site...
I think you snuck in without me seeing you arrive..LOL

I have never called myself a universalist ...others have called me that.
They seem to think that they know better than I what I believe, and what I don't

 

[Episkopos]

It's clear that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world...and not just for believers. Jesus never advocates for a salvation by belief system.

God is merciful.

I believe the bible shows very clearly that the saints will rule over the righteous and they on whom God shows mercy. God can save whom He wants to...even without our say so!

People can't see that there are actually 4 possible destinies for mankind. Until they do...the resultant attempts at a sound doctrine will fall flat...either taking mercy away from God or the other extreme...a going easy on sin.

The 4 destinies are a balanced and biblical view. It is the only viewpoint that allows that religious hypocrites fare worse than obvious sinners.

 

[Ezra]

I have never called myself a universalist ...others have called me that.
They seem to think that they know better than I what I believe, and what I don't

im not really sure what the post is about .i have seen read so many things i have no idea . i would be so happy to just see plain words

 

[Ezra]

saints will rule over the righteous

both are the same we are saints and being in christ makes us righteous