The Book of Revelation, Understood?

[marks]

I was just reffering to you, as your chart that you presented. not that you made it. but post you own chart, would like to seeit sloppy and all... (smile).

PICJAG.

Well, it was almost 40 years ago, but I think I know where it is!

:)

 

[Jay Ross]

first thanks for the reply, second, that's my point if the word can be translated either way why two of them is translated diferently. it seem to me, it is trying to tell something. or maybe not.

Just like Paul said in Ephesians, this same church 1:1 "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus". why not say "unto the church in Ephesus". what I can understand if these saints that he was writting to was not originally from Ephesus, but maybe has come there. the letter was not address to all the (church?), if at the time was an organized chuch. as was with Rome, before they was organized . Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ". but the apostle qualified who he was speaking to ... at .... or ..... in ..... Rome. see what I'm getting at. they were living in Rome at the time of the letter. another example,
1 Corinthians 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours". again the apostle qualify to whom he was speaking. was not this church "in" Corinth? or this Galatians 1:2 "And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia". here more than one church address using "of" in Galatia. see what I'm getting at? oh as said it could be nothing.

I have another thought on who is recieving these letters, but I'll hold it until I hear from you.

PICJAG.

Without a lot of time to research the original manuscripts and see if the words "in Rome" is actually in all of the available Greek manuscript copies of the Book of Romans or Ephesians, it seems to me that we can get lost in the silence of what is actually recorded in the various manuscripts. Scholars suggest that there were many copies of these letters made and distributed to the churches scattered around the Mediterranean Sea. Whether or not some of these copies were personalised for particular churches by the addition of place names is not now known.

I do not see the importance of what you are asking when the original Greek texts as shown in my previous post in the attachment were identical in their structure until the message to each of the churches in the various place began.

You can chase this rabbit as much as you like but it is a distraction to your original intent for this thread.

Shalom

 

[Davy]

I was just looking at your post. but do not God have elect not "only" in those two churches only, or are you using just these two churches to identify all the elect everywhere?

PICJAG.

In Churches Jesus rebuked, some members in those He had no problem with, and told them to hold fast with what they had. So His Messages are not about whether everyone in a certain Church is in danger or not. It's about which Churches are in line with keeping His Word.

One of the things He commended the Philadelphia Church about was how they had kept His Word. Another thing was how He had laid an open door before them that no man could shut nor open, which is a reference to the key of David. It's a pointer to those of His that cannot be deceived. The deception by the devil at the very end is what the temptation is about. These escape it in the sense that they cannot be deceived by the devil at the end, and they will not bend nor break but will remain faithful to Christ even unto death.

Both the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia He had no rebuke for, and they both had the following understanding in common which none of the other five had...

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

Rev 2:9
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
KJV

As in our Lord Jesus' parable of the sower, three examples of the sown seed did not produce fruit. All three represented Satan and his hosts preventing the seed from taking hold. Only the last group where the ground was prepared did the seed produce much fruit.

So the ultimate pointer in the sower parable is to recognize Christ's enemies and remove them, then much fruit will be produced. In the Old Testament, the symbols of fowls, stones and thorns have been used to represent Satan and his hosts, so there's another level of understanding to our Lord's sower parable, and it's about His enemies that are here to fight against God's Word. We are to recognize them, i.e., their working and remove that from Christ's Church. Keeping to His Word is the way to recognize them and their working against Christ. The other Churches obviously weren't doing that; the Church at Thyatira was obviously not staying in His Word because they allowed a Jezebel to lord over them and teach fornication in the Church (a pointer to teaching Baal paganism within the Church. The Old Testament queen Jezebel was a Baal worshiper married to a king of Israel).

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy,

Have you ever looked at them in relation to the regional history of the church in general, and Christendom?

That the issues from one lead to the next, beginning with the waning love of a post-apostolic, that is, planted church, the missionaries come in, begin a church, the excitement is there, but later a certain repetitiveness sets in (Ephesus), though as the new church grows, it comes under attack, strengthening it (Smyrna), learns how to compromise, wrong marriage (Pergamos), compromise brings false teaching (Thyatira), some division is necessary so others can know who is approved (Sardis), newly revitalized and holding on (Philadelphia), while those not in love, but lukewarm, remain (Loadicea).

Just something to consider . . .

Much love!

Yes, but that vision of John seeing the seven candlesticks in the heavenly and Jesus telling us the candlesticks are the seven Churches kept popping in my mind. The Holy Spirit obviously was not going to let that revelation fade. Then our Lord Jesus threatening to one of the seven Churches to remove their candlestick in Heaven from its place cemented that importance even more in my mind. It points to prophetic patterns for all the Churches.

If instead period histories only are applied to that revelation, it detracts from the importance of our Lord Jesus' warning about the removal of one of the candlesticks representing a Church lest they repent and make a change. If that is applied only to a certain period of history, then it tends to negate His Messages serving as blueprints all the way to the end of this world, which the heavenly candlestick pattern does point to.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Peter did not yet have the power of God in him when he denied Jesus, but come that day of Pentecost [Acts 2]he received the power when he received the Spirit.

agree. The only reason for bringing all those passages into it was Peter’s bold “I will lay down my life for thy sake.” and Christ’s response of you can’t follow Me now but you will follow Me after.

 

[GTW27]

That’s what I’m trying to say He overcomes not me

"For when I am weak, then I am strong"

 

[Stumpmaster]

If Jesus was God, than this is an issue.

Joh_13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

why would God need to Give Himself everything He already has, and

Luk 20:41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?
Luk 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Luk 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luk 20:44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

so than how can Jesus be God when He is siting on the right Hand of God... Jesus was the first of many, there will only ever be one God.

Hi mjrhealth. How can water be liquid, solid, and gas and still be water?

 

[marksman]

Here's a verse that identifies Jesus Christ as God who is the One and Only Almighty.
Rev 1:8
(8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, says the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

PICJAG is an acronym 101G uses to sign off with on a number of forums. From memory i think it means "PEACE IN CHRIST JESUS ALMIGHTY GOD".

I don't think so as you never form doctrine from one verse of scripture. If you take a look at Revelation 21:22 it says I did not see a temple there. The Lord God All-Powerful and the Lamb were its temple.

Note Lord God all-powerful (or almighty as in Rev 1:8) AND the lamb. The word in Greek for almighty in Rev 1:8 and almighty in Rev 21:22 is the same Greek word and in Rev 21:22 it speaks of the Lord God almighty AND the lamb meaning two different persons.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I don't think so as you never form doctrine from one verse of scripture. If you take a look at Revelation 21:22 it says I did not see a temple there. The Lord God All-Powerful and the Lamb were its temple.

Note Lord God all-powerful (or almighty as in Rev 1:8) AND the lamb. The word in Greek for almighty in Rev 1:8 and almighty in Rev 21:22 is the same Greek word and in Rev 21:22 it speaks of the Lord God almighty AND the lamb meaning two different persons.

That's who God is, three Persons in One
Col 2:8-9
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(9) For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[marksman]

That's who God is, three Persons in One

Please note that the verse I quoted never mentioned, three persons. It said the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb. That sounds like two people.

 

[marksman]

That's who God is, three Persons in One
Col 2:8-9
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(9) For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

There is no mention of three persons. Only the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb. That is two in my book.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Please note that the verse I quoted never mentioned, three persons. It said the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb. That sounds like two people.

The Lamb of God is Jesus Christ, who is One with the Father and the Holy Spirit. That makes 3 Persons in the Godhead.
Col 2:8-9
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(9) For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[marksman]

The Lamb of God is Jesus Christ, who is One with the Father and the Holy Spirit. That makes 3 Persons in the Godhead.
Col 2:8-9
(8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(9) For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

It never mentioned the Holy Spirit. It talked of the father and the son. Your take on things is conjecture from tradition that you have been subject to and you are trying to make the scripture fit your theories. A good teacher never does that.

 

[Stumpmaster]

It never mentioned the Holy Spirit. It talked of the father and the son. Your take on things is conjecture from tradition that you have been subject to and you are trying to make the scripture fit your theories. A good teacher never does that.

I don't claim to be anything other than a born-again Spirit-filled Bible-believing follower of Christ, and here are two Scriptures that lead me to believe God is Three Persons in One.

Joh 14:15-17
(15) If you love me, keep my commandments.
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.

2 Cor 13:14
(14) The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. The second epistle to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.

 

[101G]

Without a lot of time to research the original manuscripts and see if the words "in Rome" is actually in all of the available Greek manuscript copies of the Book of Romans or Ephesians, it seems to me that we can get lost in the silence of what is actually recorded in the various manuscripts. Scholars suggest that there were many copies of these letters made and distributed to the churches scattered around the Mediterranean Sea. Whether or not some of these copies were personalised for particular churches by the addition of place names is not now known.

I do not see the importance of what you are asking when the original Greek texts as shown in my previous post in the attachment were identical in their structure until the message to each of the churches in the various place began.

You can chase this rabbit as much as you like but it is a distraction to your original intent for this thread.

Shalom

GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, if there is something God wants us to know there I guarantee you someone is going to bring it out, sooner or later.
as said, no need to chase it. God is in control.

thanks anyway.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

In Churches Jesus rebuked, some members in those He had no problem with, and told them to hold fast with what they had. So His Messages are not about whether everyone in a certain Church is in danger or not. It's about which Churches are in line with keeping His Word.

Yes, I agree. in my experence, and what the Lord Jesus has revealed to me is that he has faithful in all churches. over the course of many years I have spoken to many who was of different denominations, friends or acquaintance of mine. and a few I was shocke as of what they told me. one friend told me, who was catholic at the time, said that she didn't believe in all of it, but here parents was catholic and she was just raised catholic, but now don't believe in most of it but still go to a catholic church, because she feels comfortable in the setting. I was surprised, but she said that she believed in the Lord Jesus and God the Father but not like most other catholic do.

but my biggest suprise was with some of my JW friends. and these range from mid 20's to 70 plus. and I was shocked when one told me, when I pressed her on blood transfusion, she had a son who was, I guess the word used is shunned, and he was sick and if need a blood transfusion, she would give him the blood transfusion. and I asked, is that not aganist your beliefs?. what she answered me almost knocked me out of my chair. quote, "she told me that she was that child mother, and if it would save his life she would do it". well that shut my mouth closed. and later I was going to press here again in another area of JW belifs, but the Lord Jesus spoke to me and said leave her alone she is one of mine. and I did just what the lord told me to do, stop my examination of her. so my my was shut closed, and we, even today are good friends, yet she still goes to the local JW hall, but she still honor me as I do her. and we talk regular.

so I know without a doubt God, the Lord Jesus have many of his's, (elect), in places where we have no clue, and where have no suspect at. we should treat everyone the same, for we don't know who we're entertaining in conversation.

Just as in the 7 churches. with all the faults, and his warning, he would not be giving these rebukes unless some of his are in these churches. hence the warning and the accommodations to do better or improve. see, we're the Judges of OUR OWNSELVES. when we examine these churches we examine ourselves.

Thanks for the post I'll be looking for you input on more of these churches. thanks.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

But that's what Jesus is saying here, don't be afraid! He went there first, and is firstborn out of the dead. Of all the people who died, He was the first to come back.

that's a good point, because he has not given us the spirit of "FEAR", but of a sound nind. and yes, he "WENT there FIRST". good point.

if I may I have an acronym for "FEAR" that God gave me many years ago, as in contrast to FAITH, which we will all be overcomer.

Fear:
False Evidence Appearing Real

Now FAITH:
Fully Assured In This Hope

PICJAG.

 

[Willie T]

Did you, perhaps want to say a little more there?...…. (Some of us have been around a lot of years, don't forget. LOL)

 

[101G]

Revelation 2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Again, another description of his Person. As said the sharp double edge sword is the word of God. Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart”. this sword is for us, the sons of God.

But there is more to this twoedge sword than meet the eye, it lay in the meaning of Pergamos = "height or elevation", as in giving God the highest praise. In other words, give GOD your all without restriction. For the word of God separate the Flesh from the Spirit. For those who are in the son are “FREE” indeed. Free to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth, which is the Highest “PRAISE”, lets see it. Since Pergamos means “Height or elevation".

Psalms 149:5 "Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds”. (let the WHO? The saints, that’s the church).

Psalms 149:6 "Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;


Psalms 149:7 "To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;

Psalms 149:8 "To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;


Psalms 149:9 "To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD”. (Matthew 18:18 "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”.)

The judgments written? See Deuteronomy 4:5-9 . as Pergamos means, we must give God the highest praise, and that is in spirit and truth, (see John 4:24). But as this church struggled in it's praise of God, it had some obstacles to overcome, we will see in the coming verses.

(but first, what do all this sound like to you up to now? To execute vengeance, punish peoples, bind kings, and executing judgment? What do this sound like?) Hold that thought.

Revelation 2:13 "I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Reading some research, NOT MINE, I came across this, fitting to this city. Aesculapius the suppose healing god was the prominent Pergamean idol. Aesculapius was recognized by the Roman senate under Tiberius as having right of sanctuary. The serpent (Satan's image) was sacred to him, charms and incantations were among medical agencies then, and Aesculapius was called "saviour." How appropriately the address to the Pergamos church says, "I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat (throne) is. my research is found here, if intrested, Macedonia

But this church held fast in the name of Jesus. These saints, either witness our Lord’s death in Jerusalem, and was scattered there after the persecution and killing of our brother Stephen in Jerusalem. These saints had stared death in the face before. for the Lord said, “and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr”. when the Lord said, “my” faith that made it personal. Herod Antipas one of Herod the great son, had the Lord Jesus killed by sending him to Pilot. he was the Lord faithful Martyr by having him killed.

Revelation 2:14 "But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
things sacrificed unto idols, (as shown above), and to commit fornication, (idolatry) . they here in Pergamos, as was with the church of Ephesus, was with spot and wrinkle in there feast of charity. Ephesians 5:27 "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

And our brother Jude said it best, 1:12 "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; (one cand further read what Jude has to say about these who cater to the doctrine of Balaam. Jude is only one chapter long easy reading.

There was some who was lover of money, better known as filthy lucre. We see it today in some churches, and where you find such activity… you'll find satan seat is at. 1 Timothy 3:2 & 3 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;: Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;”.

Revelation 2:15 "So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Money and Power, Matthew 20:25-28 "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. "But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; "And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (ONE might want to read that again especially in Leadership).

Revelation 2:16 "Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Self explanatory, this is what the Lord Jesus is going to do upon his return, (quickly). the Fight is to make up our minds to follow the Lord Jesus, (it is the Church that is being judge FIRST), 1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?". these are the judgment now and to come.

Revelation 2:17 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
God is talking, as our brother T.D. Jakes once preached, “Get ready, get ready, get ready”. he that overcome the urge to have Money/Balaamites and Power/Nicolaitans shall eat the hidden manna, the bread of LIFE. Ecclesiastes 7:11 & 12 "Wisdom is good with an inheritance: and by it there is profit to them that see the sun. "For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it."

So this church according to the chart, it had had a couple of Commendation, and a couple of Rebukes, with a Counsel, and a warning. But a great reward, “LIFE” to those who overcome. this church as some churches today, as with the church in Pergamos, it has GOOD LEADERSHIP, but not yet PERFECT. still having the stumbling blocks of a few Fleshly LIVING LEADERS. But even where satan seat was, at the heart of idolatry, some was giving GOD the “Highest” praise.

so he KNOWS our work, "keep the Faith".

PICJAG.

 

[amadeus]

agree. The only reason for bringing all those passages into it was Peter’s bold “I will lay down my life for thy sake.” and Christ’s response of you can’t follow Me now but you will follow Me after.

Even so! Give God the glory!