Where did God come from? - The answer to a frequent question

[DNB]

The way I see it, the term "spirit" just means something that isn't bound by the laws of our physical existence. It could be referring to anything present in 'heaven', that exists as a spirit being, or was created as one. The extent to which these beings aren't bound to the laws of nature is determined by the one who created them. Surely, them being "spirits" doesn't automatically qualify them as equal to God in limitless power. We are spirit beings ourselves after all, who are made 'souls' by the union of the spirit with the body, yet we were designed as lower than the angels in capability. This is why the term "spirit" is such a vague term.

Yes, good point, the term spirit, in and of itself, can have several meanings and significations.
In the context of God Himself, as being Spirit in ontology, in regard to defining his physicality, it is intangible, uncorporeal, cannot be circumscribed, is outside space and time, and therefore, cannot be defined.
He is invisible to all creatures, and unapproachable, ...and I really don't care which Biblical character 'saw' Him, spoke to Him, wrestled with Him, or ate in His presence. More often than not, God sends His angels to undertake any creature interactions, although they may be referred to as God Himself. Which is permissible, i.e. to refer to the messenger as the Agent, but the converse is not acceptable i.e. call God an Angel. Or, God may cause an effect in nature on occasion, just to assure man that He is watching over them (clouds & fire during Exodus).
Either way, if God has created the universe, which He did, we expect that His presence, or any attribute or characteristic that He may have, is much larger than that, and therefore, beyond description and comprehension.

 

[Dcopymope]

Yes, good point, the term spirit, in and of itself, can have several meanings and significations.
In the context of God Himself, as being Spirit in ontology, in regard to defining his physicality, it is intangible, uncorporeal, cannot be circumscribed, is outside space and time, and therefore, cannot be defined.
He is invisible to all creatures, and unapproachable, ...and I really don't care which Biblical character 'saw' Him, spoke to Him, wrestled with Him, or ate in His presence. More often than not, God sends His angels to undertake any creature interactions, although they may be referred to as God Himself. Which is permissible, i.e. to refer to the messenger as the Agent, but the converse is not acceptable i.e. call God an Angel. Or, God may cause an effect in nature on occasion, just to assure man that He is watching over them (clouds & fire during Exodus).
Either way, if God has created the universe, which He did, we expect that His presence, or any attribute or characteristic that He may have, is much larger than that, and therefore, beyond description and comprehension.

Well I don't see why his presence actually has to be bigger than the size of the universe when his 'holy spirit', the power that emanates from him, more than fits that description in of itself. You say he is beyond description, yet he has been described by those who witnessed him either in part or through a vision as having a form that can perceived, as human like. With his "spirit", he doesn't have to lift a finger, he can just speak "the word", and the holy spirit makes it so. He doesn't have to actually be everywhere like some all encompassing blob to see everything when his spirit serves as his "eyes" going to and fro the earth to start with, according to Zechariah. In the beginning, it doesn't say that God himself moved upon the face of the waters, it says his spirit did. He does it all from the comfort of his throne in heaven, which shows just how powerful he truly is.

(Genesis 1:1-3) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. {2} And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. {3} And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

(Psalms 33:6-9) "By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. {7} He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. {8} Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. {9} For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast."

(Job 26:13-14) "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. {14} Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?"

 

[DNB]

Well I don't see why his presence actually has to be bigger than the size of the universe when his 'holy spirit', the power that emanates from him, more than fits that description in of itself. You say he is beyond description, yet he has been described by those who witnessed him either in part or through a vision as having a form that can perceived, as human like. With his "spirit", he doesn't have to lift a finger, he can just speak "the word", and the holy spirit makes it so. He doesn't have to actually be everywhere like some all encompassing blob to see everything when his spirit serves as his "eyes" going to and fro the earth to start with, according to Zechariah. In the beginning, it doesn't say that God himself moved upon the face of the waters, it says his spirit did. He does it all from the comfort of his throne in heaven, which shows just how powerful he truly is.

I just refuse to interpret the passages that you quoted, literally. The eyes and mouth of God are antithetical to a divine and transcendent ontology. God created the eyes, and the mouth. How can He have eyes or any other organ or appendage, when these attributes are mutable and corruptible? Like I keep saying, how big are His eyes, what colour are they, how long are His eye lashes, and does He ever blink or squint His eyes? Please tell me that you see the absurdity in these propositions?
What can I say, who in their right mind would take these theophanies literally? Like I said earlier, he manifests Himself by affecting nature or the created environment, simply to accommodate man's corporeal sensory limitations. Man cannot see Spirit, nor sense it, God uses physical means to simply make man aware of His presence. The Bible constantly employs anthropomorphistic language.

 

[Dcopymope]

I just refuse to interpret the passages that you quoted, literally. The eyes and mouth of God are antithetical to a divine and transcendent ontology. God created the eyes, and the mouth. How can He have eyes or any other organ or appendage, when these attributes are mutable and corruptible? Like I keep saying, how big are His eyes, what colour are they, how long are His eye lashes, and does He ever blink or squint His eyes? Please tell me that you see the absurdity in these propositions?
What can I say, who in their right mind would take these theophanies literally? Like I said earlier, he manifests Himself by affecting nature or the created environment, simply to accommodate man's corporeal sensory limitations. Man cannot see Spirit, nor sense it, God uses physical means to simply make man aware of His presence. The Bible constantly employs anthropomorphistic language.

How much of a similarity he has to his image bearers is up in the air, but one thing is clear is that his form is certainly similar to ours is what I'm saying. Scripture never actually goes much beyond that point. Even entertaining the idea that organs are "corruptible" as a reason for not believing plainly stated eye witness testimony makes no sense with the promise that God will make what has been corrupted incorruptible, like the body of Jesus, who stands before God in the same body he rose from the dead with on our behalf. Has he announced his presence through nature? Sure, that's how he preferred to do it most of the time. However, it is recorded that he also manifests himself in his true form in a few cases. He revealed his true form mainly in the tabernacle before Moses and on Mount Sinai, not counting the vision of Ezekiel. Whenever he decides to show up this way, he is always described in similitude to his image bearers.

 

[DNB]

How much of a similarity he has to his image bearers is up in the air, but one thing is clear is that his form is certainly similar to ours is what I'm saying. Scripture never actually goes much beyond that point. Even entertaining the idea that organs are "corruptible" as a reason for not believing plainly stated eye witness testimony makes no sense with the promise that God will make what has been corrupted incorruptible, like the body of Jesus, who stands before God in the same body he rose from the dead with on our behalf. Has he announced his presence through nature? Sure, that's how he preferred to do it most of the time. However, it is recorded that he also manifests himself in his true form in a few cases. He revealed his true form mainly in the tabernacle before Moses and on Mount Sinai, not counting the vision of Ezekiel. Whenever he decides to show up this way, he is always described in similitude to his image bearers.

My understanding of the image of God, is man's spiritual dimension. No other creature on earth has a conscience, a moral comprehension, or a sense of the supernatural. One has never seen a Buddhist cat, or a Hindu dog, or an atheist snake. A Camel has never by its own volition worn a burka on its head, nor has a polar bear built a totem pole, a shrine or an alter.
This is the meaning of the image of God, that man has been endowed with. Apart from this dimension, man is corporeal mammal like any other creature in his genus. He was created from created material, that is, the dust of the earth. All flesh is corruptible, susceptible to decay, mutable and mortal. God, or divinity, is none of these.
Which part are you not getting? Your exegesis is incorrect. You are taking passages literally, that should rather be interpreted as anthropomorphism. Do you not know what differentiates divinity from humanity, the Creator from the creature, eternal from temporal, spirit from carnal?

 

[Dcopymope]

My understanding of the image of God, is man's spiritual dimension. No other creature on earth has a conscience, a moral comprehension, or a sense of the supernatural. One has never seen a Buddhist cat, or a Hindu dog, or an atheist snake. A Camel has never by its own volition worn a burka on its head, nor has a polar bear built a totem pole, a shrine or an alter.
This is the meaning of the image of God, that man has been endowed with. Apart from this dimension, man is corporeal mammal like any other creature in his genus. He was created from created material, that is, the dust of the earth. All flesh is corruptible, susceptible to decay, mutable and mortal. God, or divinity, is none of these.
Which part are you not getting? Your exegesis is incorrect. You are taking passages literally, that should rather be interpreted as anthropomorphism. Do you not know what differentiates divinity from humanity, the Creator from the creature, eternal from temporal, spirit from carnal?

What is a "spirit"? You are claiming to have an understanding of how it works beyond what is stated in the Bible and trying to disguise it as "exegesis". At what point does scripture define "spirit" as "formless"? All it ever says about "spirit" as far as I've seen is that it is something that is non terrestrial in origin. It is something that is "extra dimensional" or "celestial", of a realm containing beings, or "living creatures", who also have names. They are commonly called "angels", and referred to by other names as "Cherub", "Seraphim", etc. This is the extent to which the Bible delves into the heavenly realm. True exegesis is recognizing when scripture is meant to be symbolic, and when it is not. A part of proper exegesis is understanding eye witness testimony when it is written, such as the one below.

The Hand of God:

(Daniel 5:1-6) "Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand. {2} Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein. {3} Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them. {4} They drank wine, and praised the gods of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone. {5} ¶ In the same hour came forth fingers of a man’s hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king’s palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote. {6} Then the king’s countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another."

(Daniel 5:23-29) "But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is, and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified: {24} Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written. {25} ¶ And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. {26} This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. {27} TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. {28} PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. {29} Then commanded Belshazzar, and they clothed Daniel with scarlet, and put a chain of gold about his neck, and made a proclamation concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom."

Now if this is just "anthropomorphism", it wouldn't have scared him so bad that he urinates on himself to begin with.

 

[DNB]

What is a "spirit"? You are claiming to have an understanding of how it works beyond what is stated in the Bible and trying to disguise it as "exegesis". At what point does scripture define "spirit" as "formless"? All it ever says about "spirit" as far as I've seen is that it is something that is non terrestrial in origin. It is something that is "extra dimensional" or "celestial", of a realm containing beings, or "living creatures", who also have names. They are commonly called "angels", and referred to by other names as "Cherub", "Seraphim", etc. This is the extent to which the Bible delves into the heavenly realm. True exegesis is recognizing when scripture is meant to be symbolic, and when it is not. A part of proper exegesis is understanding eye witness testimony when it is written, such as the one below.

The Hand of God:

Now if this is just "anthropomorphism", it wouldn't have scared him so bad that he urinated on himself to begin with.

Ok, you are so correct. God's literal hand wrote on the wall of Belshazzar's palace.
I'm really afraid to ask, but, was their an arm connected to the hand, and then a shoulder, clavicle, scapulae, thoracic, cervical and lumbar vertebrae, cranium and mandible, etc... Or was the hand just suspended in air? How big was the hand, to be the hand of God?
You see, the art of exegesis is knowing when to take a pericope literal, allegorical, metaphorical, figurative or anthropomorphical. If logistically, certain described events, are implausible, or defy well-known axioms about God and deity, then we are compelled to ascribe a non-literal convention to the text. Or am I sounding ridiculous right now?
If it can be predicated that flesh is temporal, mortal, corruptible and secular, then God can be none of these. Or, am I off my rocker to make such a claim?
You keep talking about eye witness testimony, ...get over it! God suspended the law of physics to make a hand appear out of thin air (dismembered from the rest of a human form) , obviously. If God caused it to happen, then it was 'the hand of God', as opposed to any other source for this apparition. Would such a sight not cause you to panic, whether you knew that it was either the hand of God, or the hand of Moses or the devil, or Napoleon or Mother Goose?

 

[Brakelite]

. You are taking passages literally, that should rather be interpreted as anthropomorphism.

How can it be anthropomorphic when it was God Himself who proffered the description? Many visions have been granted men throughout all ages of God seated upon a throne. In some cases the throne itself, and the other creatures surrounding it, are described in detail. And in one case a vision of the future where men are seek standing before that same throne, that same God, seeing Him face to face.
I have no issue with God being spirit, and said spirit having a form. That same form, spirit, also has feelings... Emotions... Character... Virtue... Why is it so difficult to conclude He has physicality when scripture affirms it? Your understanding of the nature of God is, it appears to me, merely opinion and your own personal construction on what God is like. And your extension of those characteristics to all spirits...eg angels... even more questionable. There are many here who could testify of seeing spirits, sensing their presence even without sight, and at times even being touched physically by them. Myself included.

 

[marksman]

It seems like a very simple question and every believer should know an easy answer on it. But if we google a little bit and read the answers of the Christians and the contrarguments of atheists it shows that everything is not so simple, clear and easy.

That’s why I have a desire to write my own variant of the answer.
Where did God come from?

Simple. I am that I am.

 

[DNB]

How can it be anthropomorphic when it was God Himself who proffered the description? Many visions have been granted men throughout all ages of God seated upon a throne. In some cases the throne itself, and the other creatures surrounding it, are described in detail. And in one case a vision of the future where men are seek standing before that same throne, that same God, seeing Him face to face.
I have no issue with God being spirit, and said spirit having a form. That same form, spirit, also has feelings... Emotions... Character... Virtue... Why is it so difficult to conclude He has physicality when scripture affirms it? Your understanding of the nature of God is, it appears to me, merely opinion and your own personal construction on what God is like. And your extension of those characteristics to all spirits...eg angels... even more questionable. There are many here who could testify of seeing spirits, sensing their presence even without sight, and at times even being touched physically by them. Myself included.

You sound flaky and susceptible to delusions, when you claim that you've either seen, or have been touched by a spirit. I've learned that those who make such affirmations, are typically outrageous in their exegesis, and somewhat contemptuous in their regard to God.
God does not send theophanies or his angels, simply so that the recipient can say that it happened. The manifestation of a hand, appeared to Bleshazzar in order to warn him of an impending, and lethal doom, that was to come upon him. All God's interventions with man, via his servants the angels, or his own manipulation of physical matter, had an extremely serious purpose, and an incontrovertible veracity behind it i.e. there was no mistaking whether something appeared or spoke, or not.

I never once offered an ontology for angels.

I've said this a thousand times already, i.e. if God has a hand, does He have a stomach, if He has a stomach is he required to sustain it with food. If so, where's the garden, and does He defecate? Does He have to maintain and cut His hair? What colour is His skin, and His eyes? How big is His little toe? What is the size of the universe, and therefore, how big is He?
Does this sound like merely an opinion to you?

 

[Justadude]

After a wonderful, non-religious childhood, marriage, and beginning of a career...all the things one would hope for in life as a young person, my business was broken into three consecutive times causing a great financial burden that destroyed my marriage and broke apart our happy home with two wonderful children. Life continued in a very curious downward spiral while I personally broke records in my field with such contrast that I could not pass it all off as merely coincidental. Over the course of time and at the end of my rope, having exhausted all my other efforts, having nothing to go on, no prior introduction, no indoctrination of any kind, as I lie in my bed unable to fall to sleep one night, I began to talk to a God I never knew--and lo and behold, He answered.

Instantly, I was caught up in the spirit above the earth in the clouds, but not just anywhere. I was looking down upon the area that I had threatened to go--yes, I threatened God. Next, there was an innumerable crowd of people like waves upon the sea as far as I could see, and they began to stir in panic. I turned from the crowd to find a great wall of ice covering a huge door. As the crowd began to push, I began to beat on the door with my fists, and great chunks of ice came falling down, and the door opened. Looking up into the clouds through the door I saw a narrow stairway. At the top, was my father. And, no, I never had father issues--I had a wonderful father and childhood. Then I was half way up the stairway looking back to the door and in through the doorway came infants, little babies wrapped in little white blankets. I reached out my hands and took the first one and turned and passed it to my father's open arms, then turned back and did it over and over and over again.

Then, just as suddenly as it had all come about, I was back in my body in my bed--so startled that I shot straight up running and landed at the foot of my bed in a cold sweat. Bewildered, I began repeating over and over in my mind what had just happened, trying to understand: "I opened a door and passed babies to my father in the sky"...over and over. I finally eased back up and drifted off to sleep. When I awoke I was fresh and experienced a peace I had never experienced before.

Then everything in my life changed. You could say, I was changed, and I was. My career changed, my relationship changed, and I moved. Soon after I temporarily stayed with my brother and in the room where they put me up, I found a bible. I seemed to be drawn to it. I began to read it and couldn't put it down, barely stopping to eat or sleep. As I read, the words confirmed my experience, and my experience confirmed the words; and by this I knew that the Author of each was one and the same.

Thanks for sharing Scott. That's quite an experience!

 

[Dcopymope]

Ok, you are so correct. God's literal hand wrote on the wall of Belshazzar's palace.
I'm really afraid to ask, but, was their an arm connected to the hand, and then a shoulder, clavicle, scapulae, thoracic, cervical and lumbar vertebrae, cranium and mandible, etc... Or was the hand just suspended in air? How big was the hand, to be the hand of God?

....I don't know, go ask him, since you are pretending to know so much about the attributes of God beyond what is plainly written, as if the size of his hand matters to start with. According to Daniel, Gods prophet, that was the literal hand of God writing on a wall. YOU are claiming otherwise, contradicting his word.

You see, the art of exegesis is knowing when to take a pericope literal, allegorical, metaphorical, figurative or anthropomorphical. If logistically, certain described events, are implausible, or defy well-known axioms about God and deity, then we are compelled to ascribe a non-literal convention to the text. Or am I sounding ridiculous right now?
If it can be predicated that flesh is temporal, mortal, corruptible and secular, then God can be none of these. Or, am I off my rocker to make such a claim?
You keep talking about eye witness testimony, ...get over it! God suspended the law of physics to make a hand appear out of thin air (dismembered from the rest of a human form) , obviously. If God caused it to happen, then it was 'the hand of God', as opposed to any other source for this apparition. Would such a sight not cause you to panic, whether you knew that it was either the hand of God, or the hand of Moses or the devil, or Napoleon or Mother Goose?

........Ok, so in other words, king Belshazzar pissed all over himself over a metaphor.....got it.

 

[Dcopymope]

How can it be anthropomorphic when it was God Himself who proffered the description? Many visions have been granted men throughout all ages of God seated upon a throne. In some cases the throne itself, and the other creatures surrounding it, are described in detail. And in one case a vision of the future where men are seek standing before that same throne, that same God, seeing Him face to face.
I have no issue with God being spirit, and said spirit having a form. That same form, spirit, also has feelings... Emotions... Character... Virtue... Why is it so difficult to conclude He has physicality when scripture affirms it? Your understanding of the nature of God is, it appears to me, merely opinion and your own personal construction on what God is like. And your extension of those characteristics to all spirits...eg angels... even more questionable. There are many here who could testify of seeing spirits, sensing their presence even without sight, and at times even being touched physically by them. Myself included.

Right, it amazes me how people pretend to know so much about how the spirit realm works and how its supposed to be able to interact with our terrestrial environment, who will then poop all over eye witness testimony affirming its characteristics. This is why I have a very hard time taking many so called "believers" seriously. They expose themselves every day how they really don't believe in the thing they claim to believe in all that much. Instead of letting the book speak for itself, people would much rather inject their own personal opinions, viewpoints on it.

 

[DNB]

....I don't know, go ask him, since you are pretending to know so much about the attributes of God beyond what is plainly written, as if the size of his hand matters to start with. According to Daniel, Gods prophet, that was the literal hand of God writing on a wall. YOU are claiming otherwise, contradicting his word.



........Ok, so in other words, king Belshazzar pissed all over himself over a metaphor.....got it.

You're stubborn as a mule!

 

[Dcopymope]

You're stubborn as a mule!

.............If believing what the Bible plainly describes as eye witness testimony makes me "stubborn", then so be it. That's what makes a true believer.

 

[Dcopymope]

Witness: “I walked around the exterior of building four. I think there’s graphite on the ground,”

DNB: “You didn’t see graphite,”

Witness: “I did.”

DNB: “You DIDN’T! Because it’s NOT THERE!”

............

 

[DNB]

.............If believing what the Bible plainly describes as eye witness testimony makes me "stubborn", then so be it. That's what makes a true believer.

No, that was the demise of the Jews, remaining stiff-necked and obstinate.
The ultimate point is this, your exegesis is very bad.

 

[Dcopymope]

No, that was the demise of the Jews, remaining stiff-necked and obstinate.
The ultimate point is this, your exegesis is very bad.

......Denying eye witness testimony, twisting their words into metaphors is bad exegesis at its finest, and wouldn't even hold up in a court of law at that.

 

[Truth OT]

A person referring to something as spiritual does nothing to describe that something. All calling something spiritual actually does is affirm that the person trying to describe the something is ignorant to what that something really consists of or is and cannot actually see the thing they wish to describe.

 

[Dcopymope]

A person referring to something as spiritual does nothing to describe that something. All calling something spiritual actually does is affirm that the person trying to describe the something is ignorant to what that something really consists of or is and cannot actually see the thing the wish to describe.

Agree'd, people like to pretend they know more about what "spirit" is beyond what has been written as eye witness testimony, essentially calling them liars. They call it "formless", yet every description of what we call "spiritual" shows the exact opposite to be the case. They claim its impossible for the deity known as 'God' to have a form, yet can't point out within scripture their basis for limiting 'God' as a "formless spirit". The term "spirit" refers to anything not made from the "dust of the earth", or from the elements of our plain of existence. This is about as much as anyone can legitimately claim to know about it.