Where did God come from? - The answer to a frequent question

[Truth OT]

That's like saying pots are the result of people using them, rather than them being made by a potter.

I said that gods were dreamed up my men to fill in the knowledge and uncertainty gaps and you somehow equate that with saying pottery exists without a potter. No sir, the two aren't NEARLY the same.

But even your own ideas or analogy end with all things being made; and if made, then there is a Maker.

Your logic is simply incomplete.

First, I do not recall making an analogy in my statement above, so what are you talking about there?

As far as all things being made being the premise, I'd change it to all things exist and I'd then ask the question of HOW that existence came about.

As far as what is incomplete, it's more likely that my knowledge than my logic is. I simply do not have enough information to make a definitively accurate assessment of how and why things came to be and until I have testable evidence that can be vetted out, I'll have to be good with that.

 

[Truth OT]

I am of the idea that God came from the minds and imaginations of human beings looking for answers ........

To further expound on this, I'd say:
As I consider and try to dissect the God(s) that exist within the human minds, what the outside observer immediately sees is that each mind has a God concept that's ever so slightly different from other minds. This has been termed by some as Self Projection As God, (SPAG). As we navigate thru all the varying levels of SPAG, we tend to find some commonalities that can possibly be used to construct at least an outlined depiction of God that can be used to define what "god" actually means. Here are some "god qualities" that I have observed being pretty common across most SPAG projectors:

God is:
- a powerful conscious entity that is responsible for man's existence and somehow because of that, man is totally subjected to the perceived will of God.
- not a fully mortal being
- God has at minimum at great degree of authority over nature
- responsible for the existence of righteousness and/or morality
- the controller of man's existence both in this mortal life we experience in the shared reality as well as whether or not we get to partake in and enjoy vs. suffer in any afterlife scenario
- a sovereign being that cannot be judged by man as anything but just and righteous

In summary, the God Concept is a tool of the mind that gives credence to the hope and idea that the individual as well as possibly the collective of humanity, matters on an ultimate level. God seems to embody and personify the individual or community of individual's ideals for behavior, justice for those that don't strive for or subscribe to those ideals, and hope for strength to make it through life and beyond. So for the believer, God is as real as their values, hopes, and passions! That, along with the fact that most human beings want to believe in something that gives relevance to themselves and their values has given a foundation to the idea of the God concept being a reality that is more than what it actually is. This concept has been ejected and at times extracted from the minds of individuals and then personified and made into an idol for so long that most people are reared by society to except the extracted god as a given. This "given god" that is but an extraction and amalgamation from the many, is then utilized by parties of influence to give backing to agendas they want observed in our shared reality and for millennia we as a race of beings have been reluctant or too ignorant to call it what it is.

 

[ScottA]

I said that gods were dreamed up my men to fill in the knowledge and uncertainty gaps and you somehow equate that with saying pottery exists without a potter. No sir, the two aren't NEARLY the same.



First, I do not recall making an analogy in my statement above, so what are you talking about there?

As far as all things being made being the premise, I'd change it to all things exist and I'd then ask the question of HOW that existence came about.

As far as what is incomplete, it's more likely that my knowledge than my logic is. I simply do not have enough information to make a definitively accurate assessment of how and why things came to be and until I have testable evidence that can be vetted out, I'll have to be good with that.

Cause and effect. If God exists, it is not because men imagined it so. But that "if" is your "if", it's just you speculating. Thus, the real issue with your theory, is that you have nothing to go by but your own imagination. Which makes it all a circular argument of no value.

"Analogy", speculation, conjecture...call it whatever. The point is you are speculating other men's actions based on your on conjecture.

The "existence" of God, yes, that is the question. And, yes...not that it doesn't exist...but you personally don't have enough information.

As for your "testable evidence" approach, you could not test all that you now consider true, let alone something new and out of your area of understanding. The fact is, you simply believe what you believe. You have taken it on faith, simply because mere parts of it add up. If challenged to "prove" what you believe, you could spend your whole life establishing what you now consider to be true, and it would be full of holes. If you took the same approach with everything else in life that you are now taking with the issue of God, you would be institutionalized for your inability to advance. Which simply means...you have reached your limit...not the limit of man, but...your personal limit.

 

[Truth OT]

The "existence" of God, yes, that is the question. And, yes...not that it doesn't exist...but you personally don't have enough information.

Stop moving the goalposts please.
Do gods exist is not the question but rather where did God come from.

"Analogy", speculation, conjecture...call it whatever. The point is you are speculating other men's actions based on your on conjecture.

It can be demonstrated that man's concepts of gods was in fact just as I described "dreamed up my men to fill in the knowledge and uncertainty gaps."

As for your "testable evidence" approach, you could not test all that you now consider true, let alone something new and out of your area of understanding. The fact is, you simply believe what you believe.

There is no need to test ALL as ALL things aren't consequential. Beliefs are built upon foundations. Some foundations are supported by reality while others are not. When beliefs are brought into question, at that point the testing of those beliefs and their veracity becomes consequential.

 

[ScottA]

Stop moving the goalposts please.
Do gods exist is not the question but rather where did God come from.

It can be demonstrated that man's concepts of gods was in fact just as I described "dreamed up my men to fill in the knowledge and uncertainty gaps."

Now it is you who is moving the goalposts...as you have been doing all along. You are putting imaginary gods in the same category as the one true God. It's no wonder you are unconvinced. Likewise, if you singled out one person in jail and charged them with everything that everyone else in the jail was accused of, that would be crazy. Why would you take such an illogical approach?

There is no need to test ALL as ALL things aren't consequential. Beliefs are built upon foundations. Some foundations are supported by reality while others are not. When beliefs are brought into question, at that point the testing of those beliefs and their veracity becomes consequential.

And yet you throw the one true God in with ALL those that are false. By doing so, you define yourself and your approach as hypocritical.

As for foundations, there is only one God who has witness testimony from every generation since the beginning of time. Not beliefs, but actual knowledge of God. All of history offers no better foundation. That is reality. But obviously you have apparently only been listening to those who "believe" and not to those who "know." Why be so foolish?

But lets talk about belief as opposed to knowledge, and the reality of history: If a million people come from a million different times and parts of the world and give witness that agrees with others they could not possible know, a sane person would question not believing their witness. But you, with all that written testimony just like that...you don't believe their witness and want your own kind of proof. As I have said before...the problem is none of that, the problem is you.

 

[Justadude]

 

[Truth OT]

You are putting imaginary gods in the same category as the one true God.

Blind assertion. You have failed to demonstrate the difference or establish that there is in FACT one true god. You speak as if you've established this when you have NOT. Your one person in jail comparison fails miserably as well. It's not just one concept of god created by man that can be demonstrated as dreamed up my men to fill in the knowledge and uncertainty gaps, it's virtually ALL of them!

But obviously you have apparently only been listening to those who "believe" and not to those who "know."

Please demonstrate how you KNOW or provide someone else who can.

But you, with all that written testimony just like that...you don't believe their witness and want your own kind of proof. As I have said before...the problem is none of that, the problem is you.

Many can be wrong. Popularity does not equal right.
Also, eye witness accounts are lacking and credible evidence is as well.

 

[ScottA]

Blind assertion. You have failed to demonstrate the difference or establish that there is in FACT one true god. You speak as if you've established this when you have NOT. Your one person in jail comparison fails miserably as well. It's not just one concept of god created by man that can be demonstrated as dreamed up my men to fill in the knowledge and uncertainty gaps, it's virtually ALL of them!



Please demonstrate how you KNOW or provide someone else who can.



Many can be wrong. Popularity does not equal right.
Also, eye witness accounts are lacking and credible evidence is as well.

Typical.

You quoted everything I posted but the part where I "establish that there is in FACT one true God."

Blind deletion.

See how you are?

 

[Truth OT]

I "establish that there is in FACT one true God."

This, you did not do. You asserted your opinion that there is such but never did you supply proof to back your claim. We're not playing "because I said so" here.

 

[ScottA]

This, you did not do. You asserted your opinion that there is such but never did you supply proof to back your claim. We're not playing "because I said so" here.

Look, I am not going to argue with you about what history has proven as a fact, just because you think it is me making a claim. I did not make a claim, I stated a fact of history that anyone should be able to research and know the truth about.

Do your own homework: History has established only one God by witnesses from every generations since the beginning of time, by independent information that agrees beyond a shadow of a doubt.

If you have doubt where there is no doubt as established by history and a host of witnesses greater than all the others put together, that's just pathetic. But it is not my problem, it's yours, and I am under not obligation to provide you with anything.

Your problem, your loss.

 

[Truth OT]

History has established only one God by witnesses from every generations since the beginning of time, by independent information that agrees beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Nope, history has DEFINITELY not established that there are gods, let alone a one that corresponds to what is written in any holy book.

The subjective information you ATTEMPT to inject laughably pokes holes in your assertion as the personal experiences tend to differ and even if they did not they have no bearing on the truth of reality. You're effectively saying that because people from all generations have felt this way, then that confirms that the object of their feelings is what they each claim it to be. Not to mention again that they premise that such a level of agreement exists is not on stable ground itself.

 

[ScottA]

Nope, history has DEFINITELY not established that there are gods, let alone a one that corresponds to what is written in any holy book.

The subjective information you ATTEMPT to inject laughably pokes holes in your assertion as the personal experiences tend to differ and even if they did not they have no bearing on the truth of reality. You're effectively saying that because people from all generations have felt this way, then that confirms that the object of their feelings is what they each claim it to be. Not to mention again that they premise that such a level of agreement exists is not on stable ground itself.

No...you misconstrued everything I have been saying.

First, you again lumped the one true God in with all other would-be gods, even though I pointed out the difference.

You also attempt to hold some actual claim on reality you know nothing about. You stand on what you think is solid ground whirling through space and claim concrete knowledge based on the ground not appearing to move under your feet, while dismissing the whirling through space. And that is how you have approached God, as if he wasn't even a factor. Your omission of the greater reality, is the problem. But all you want to do is retreat to your own little world with your fingers in your ears. So retreat. Don't listen to the truth because it is clouded and confused by inconvenient lies. The choice is yours.

Like I said, your problem, your loss.

 

[Paul Christensen]

It seems like a very simple question and every believer should know an easy answer on it. But if we google a little bit and read the answers of the Christians and the contrarguments of atheists it shows that everything is not so simple, clear and easy.

That’s why I have a desire to write my own variant of the answer.
Where did God come from?

Reminds me of the young man who asked his old mature pastor, "What was God doing before He created the universe?" The old pastor replied, "Preparing hell for the over-curious!"

 

[APAK]

Reminds me of the young man who asked his old mature pastor, "What was God doing before He created the universe?" The old pastor replied, "Preparing hell for the over-curious!"

Hello Paul...I grew up in NZ, Petone, The (Lower) Hutt, and in Levin, North Island..

... cute response of yours...

For those of the Christian faith though this thread does make one ponder about the Almighty, and what was (I know... a time constrained view) 'He' was doing before 'his' very first creation of anything into existence and even before time and space, with the limited knowledge we can gain, comprehend and be aware of....?

Folks are so fixated on the role of the Almighty as Father and the work of his Son that we sometimes forget he was not a Father at one time. He was and is the I AM that I AM or who /what he/it is....the Spirit and source of life eternal. I know scripture is very 'thin' about his pre-Father role....

Cheers

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Josho]

God is, God was and God will always be around.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Hello Paul...I grew up in NZ, Petone, The (Lower) Hutt, and in Levin, North Island..

... cute response of yours...

For those of the Christian faith though this thread does make one ponder about the Almighty, and what was (I know... a time constrained view) 'He' was doing before 'his' very first creation of anything into existence and even before time and space, with the limited knowledge we can gain, comprehend and be aware of....?

Folks are so fixated on the role of the Almighty as Father and the work of his Son that we sometimes forget he was not a Father at one time. He was and is the I AM that I AM or who /what he/it is....the Spirit and source of life eternal. I know scripture is very 'thin' about his pre-Father role....

Cheers

Bless you,

APAK

It's great to hear from another Kiwi! I grew up in Blenheim, then spent a year at Wigram training for my Civil Aviation job, then to Wellington, where I became a Christian at the Lower Hutt Assembly of God in 1966. In 1970 I moved to Palmerston North and lived there for 11 years, then moved around the country as a school teacher and finally settled in Auckland in 1996. I moved to Christchurch last December.

Our finite minds means that we can have only partial knowledge of the ways of God, and to try and figure out what He was doing before creation is outside of what we can comprehend. It is mind-boggling to try and imagine how God can be eternal, having no beginning nor end. I can't even imagine what it is going to be like living for ever. Our minds are so conditioned to life having a beginning, a middle, and an end, that it shuts off when trying to conceive of anything outside of that.

As far as we are concerned, the beginning for us is when God created the heavens and the earth. It is as if God is saying, "Don't go anywhere before that, because there is nothing for you to see." Jesus' answer to unnecessary questions is what He said to Peter when he asked about what was going to happen to John: "What is that to you? Follow Me!"

 

[APAK]

It's great to hear from another Kiwi! I grew up in Blenheim, then spent a year at Wigram training for my Civil Aviation job, then to Wellington, where I became a Christian at the Lower Hutt Assembly of God in 1966. In 1970 I moved to Palmerston North and lived there for 11 years, then moved around the country as a school teacher and finally settled in Auckland in 1996. I moved to Christchurch last December.

Our finite minds means that we can have only partial knowledge of the ways of God, and to try and figure out what He was doing before creation is outside of what we can comprehend. It is mind-boggling to try and imagine how God can be eternal, having no beginning nor end. I can't even imagine what it is going to be like living for ever. Our minds are so conditioned to life having a beginning, a middle, and an end, that it shuts off when trying to conceive of anything outside of that.

As far as we are concerned, the beginning for us is when God created the heavens and the earth. It is as if God is saying, "Don't go anywhere before that, because there is nothing for you to see." Jesus' answer to unnecessary questions is what He said to Peter when he asked about what was going to happen to John: "What is that to you? Follow Me!"

Thank you for sharing Paul and your response I thought was very thoughtful. Palmerston North was just up the road from Levin...I also lived in the hills of Mangahao, near Shannon.

Blessings and fruitful times ahead,

APAK

 

[Paul Christensen]

Thank you for sharing Paul and your response I thought was very thoughtful. Palmerston North was just up the road from Levin...I also lived in the hills of Mangahao, near Shannon.

Blessings and fruitful times ahead,

APAK

Did you ever meet up with a farmer called Peter Campbell? He was a very enthusiastic evangelical Christian who lived near Shannon. But then that was back in the 1980s... Of course I might be like someone who found out I am living in Christchurch and asking me whether I knew his friend Joe Bloggs who lives here...

 

[APAK]

Did you ever meet up with a farmer called Peter Campbell? He was a very enthusiastic evangelical Christian who lived near Shannon. But then that was back in the 1980s... Of course I might be like someone who found out I am living in Christchurch and asking me whether I knew his friend Joe Bloggs who lives here...

Know I do not know the name...Left for the States by then....sorry...APAK out

 

[Truth OT]

Your omission of the greater reality, is the problem.

Please demonstrate that such a thing exists. Define what it is and how you know as well. Thanks.